Hellfire
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 posted on 29/1/05 at 12:29 AM |
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Corporal Punishment
Seems like the little "kiddywinks" are getting more and more confident at breaking the law and getting away with almost murder. Personally
I think it stems from the lack of discipline in schools.
Teachers are leaving their roles, lack of new recruits. Take the money issue out of it and what's left a day of verbal sometimes physical abuse.
I was considering entering the profession, but not now, unless...
So what do you think about bringing back corporal discipline? ie THE CANE.
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Lawnmower
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| posted on 29/1/05 at 12:54 AM |
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My wifes a teacher. just this week a kid smacked a dinner tray round the back of a dinnerladys head-got 1 day suspension.
last week a girl (with a history of volence against pupils) deliberatly kicked a boy in the nuts. This boy had recently been in hosptal for an
operation, and has now been readmitted into hospital with a blood clot in his testicle.
what happended to the girl?
-sweet FA.
This was in a middle school (age 10-12) in a very middle class area where the little darlings are never wrong and its the teachers who are all liers
and responsible for teaching their kids right and wrong.
[Edited on 29/1/05 by Lawnmower]
[Edited on 29/1/05 by Lawnmower]
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marcyboy
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| posted on 29/1/05 at 02:01 AM |
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no chance they'll bring the kane back until they realise kids need discipline...i mean just look at the way kids behave and there attitude sine
the late 70's
kids know the police the teachers and worst of all there parents can't touch em...
as for me i think a lot of the lack of discipline starts at home first...then the schools...
also they are even threatening to imprison parents who smack there kids too...whats all that about!!
this was about the same time the judicial system were saying that theres nowhere to send offenders.... so they wanna early release the ones
they've got and tag em,
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niceperson709
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| posted on 29/1/05 at 02:02 AM |
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bring back the rope, bugger the cane !!!!!!!!!
Best wishes IAIN
life is not the rehearsal , it's the show so don't sit there thinking about it DO IT NOW
http://iainseven.wordpress.com/
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andkilde
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| posted on 29/1/05 at 04:01 AM |
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Not sure about Britain but here in Canada teachers are the folks you run from at parties -- about as interesting to talk to as 12 steppers. Constantly
whinging and whining about how hard done by they are while walking home with massive paycheques, two months paid vacation, every seventh year off and
a share in the richest pension fund in north america.
My heart bleeds.
And...
FWIW, you were all rotten little blighters in school, you've just got dotty and forgotten  .
ta
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Rorty
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| posted on 29/1/05 at 04:37 AM |
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The current situation is the result of PC gone to extremes. What the weak-kneed and pollies want to do is protect the children from abuse, but the
line between abuse and corporal punishment is very dificult to define.
It's perfectly natural to belt a child occasionally and smack them frequently. Take a look at the animal world (where we should look to for far
more examples on how to behave socially); a dog lying quietly will allow its pups to jump around and tug on its tail for a while, perhaps growling and
snapping at them. But when two of them come bundling down on it, the dog will leap to its feet and pin one of them to the ground and give it a good
sharp nip so it remembers. Most mamals do the same to some degree.
The human race have lost the plot when it comes to social reaction. Teachers should be allowed to slap pupils (but not around the head) and principals
should be allowed to administer the cane a maximum of six times per punishment.
I went to boarding schools where I was caned and though I wasn't over joyed at the time, it did produce results.
I never walloped my kids, but they had their legs slapped on occasions which had the required effect and has left no physical or mental scarring. To
the contrary, they're very well adjusted.
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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pbura
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| posted on 29/1/05 at 07:53 AM |
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I've long wondered about the origins of PC claptrap. For example, the year after I graduated from uni, the school instituted a policy of co-ed
dormitories, with boys and girls even sharing bathrooms. The students didn't want it, and neither did the parents, but there it was
nonetheless. Where does this stuff come from?
We spanked our 4 children when they were willfully disobedient. I would never spank a child for breaking something, being forgetful, or just doing
something stupid. Usually, the child will feel badly enough in these circumstances without additional help. Typically, the last spanking was around
age 10 when other leverages (loss of privileges, etc.) could be applied. I have raised no axe murderers AFAIK.
Pete
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DavidM
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| posted on 29/1/05 at 08:18 AM |
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So many parents seem to want to be "friends" with their kids, and rather than earning their respect by laying down clear rules, guidelines
and discipline, they try buying that respect, treating them like mini adults, and making sure that what they want is what they get. That old classic
"I want my kids to have all the things I didn't".
It can only get worse. What's all this £250 child trust fund business. To give them a good start in life? That's bollocks, let them get
out and stand on their own two feet. Their expectations are already raised far too high.
Ban advertising on kids TV or at other times targetting kids.
Ban the bloody school run, make them walk. It'll be good for their health.
Stop selling school playing fields to build houses, and make games compulsory even if they forget their kit or have a "Johnny's got a
slight cold" sicknote.
Let parents smack kids. I did, but I didn't have to do it very often as a stearn word usually sufficed.
Message to Phsycologists, Phsyciatrist, Social Workers, Politicians and the Police:
There is a clear distinction between a smack and child abuse. Only a complete idiot could confuse the two.
Stop testing them every step of the way at Junior school. It takes the fun out of learning.
Stop making playgrounds "soft" so they can't hurt themselves. There will always come a time in life when they'll hit something
hard.
Have a single age of consent. 16 for sex and cigarettes, 18 for voting and booze. Why? Make it 18 all round.
Stop dishing out condoms and the pill to kids without their parents consent. I know the AIDS doom and gloom merchants would be horrified, but it only
encourages them to get it on. At least when I was a teen and wanted to do it I had to put some effort and thought into getting hold of a rubber.
Teenage pregnancy rates were a lot lower then too. Mind you it was about a hundred years ago.
I've got nothing at all against single mums, but those who are already on benefit because of hubby leaving etc., who then continue to shell out
kids with anonymous fathers, should be left to support them. Why should my taxes?
Make gun laws effective. Leave the legitimate gun clubber alone and make it simple. If someone is in the street and they have a gun on their person,
that shows intent. Lock them up, life will do.
If any kids are in school and are found to have a knife, lock them up in an adult prison for a few days, with their parents.
Rant over, just don't mention the Health Service, Nurses or Iraq.
David
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Cita
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| posted on 29/1/05 at 09:57 AM |
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Remember when i was in 5 th grade(age 10) we started a small(?) fire in a wooden work shed on a construction site.
Neighbours called the fire brigade and the police.
Police took all 4 of us to the police station and kept us there without warning our parents untill 7 o'clock in the evening.(this was in the
days when parents did'nt run to the police station when their children where a few hours later than expected)
The cops made us each write 20 pages with the stupid phrase "I shall not make fire again"
When they brought us home in the police van they made a nice sight seeing tour around our small vilage so everybody could see who was in that police
van and than dropped us off.
The police van in front of the house and the fact that i was a "little late" had caused my mother to be in such mental state that i
could'nt sat down properly for a whole week after she "talked" to me
But that's where the story ended.No court-no social family controle-no fine.
I never did such stupid thing again....i think
[Edited on 29/1/05 by Cita]
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Hellfire
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| posted on 29/1/05 at 10:54 AM |
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I understand that this is a somewhat limited and bised poll. However, it is very interesting to see that the ratio of pro-CP and anti-CP is very
heavily pro-CP. Makes me wonder what the result would be nationwide and whether 'New Labour' would adopt and implement the views of their
electorate should they actually win the next election?
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flak monkey
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| posted on 29/1/05 at 12:04 PM |
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My mum is a teacher and up until last year she was dealing with the SEN kids. She would come home upset and angry due to the absuse she recieved from
several of them (kicks, punches, biting, hair pulling etc) and not being able to do anything to restrain them. Also by sending them to the heads
office all they recived was a couple of days suspension (yay holiday!) then they came back just as bad. She said that some (not all) of the kids were
only SEN because of the lack of parenting skills, some of them couldnt even read at age 15, or write their name, and werent interested in learning to
do so. (I know some of them will have real mental difficulties and I'm not talking about that). I went several times back to the school, and to
see the just plain cheek and rudeness of some of the kids (and they clearly knew they were doing it) was astonishing. IMO they needed a good few slaps
when they were little to teach them right from wrong. Small kids dont understand reasoning. My parents had no issues with slapping me when i was bad,
and it never did me any harm at all. I certainly no whats right and wrong.
I think its about time people stopped being so PC and saying that physical punishment will harm kids. Plenty of the older generations had CP in school
and it never did them a bit of harm, it just taught them to respect rules.
Just MO
Cheers,
David.
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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JoelP
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| posted on 29/1/05 at 01:17 PM |
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whilst i fully support proper discipline of children (everyone in fact!), what would you do if your child came home from school having been caned for
some very poor reason? methinks the teacher would have trouble sitting down too...
i was whacked a few times as a kid, but i knew my dad loved me and looking back he was pretty much always right. but i dont think id trust a teacher
100%.
on the other hand, seeing as some children end up at school with no parental discipline, i guess i would accept CP as being needed for some kids, and
hope that my kids would never end up on the wrong end of it.
im a firm believer in building more jails though! and people should be locked up for not installing a sense of discipline in their children. 
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Lawnmower
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| posted on 29/1/05 at 01:36 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
whilst i fully support proper discipline of children (everyone in fact!), what would you do if your child came home from school having been caned for
some very poor reason? methinks the teacher would have trouble sitting down too...
It would not have been that uncommon for a dedicated punishment giver to be used, so to be consistant acroos the board-ie not the malicioes teacher
who you blew off getting their revenge.
Bring back national service.
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marcyboy
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| posted on 29/1/05 at 01:38 PM |
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but if kids get proper discipline at home they would'nt get in trouble in school...
or at least be more reluctant to get in trouble anyway
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Mark Allanson
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| posted on 29/1/05 at 01:43 PM |
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My daughter gave up a degree course in education due to the situation in todays schools. She is now doing psycology, (hoping to pick up the pieces
later)
If you can keep you head, whilst all others around you are losing theirs, you are not fully aware of the situation
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Noodle
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| posted on 29/1/05 at 02:14 PM |
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I'm a teacher in a secondary school in Wolverhampton. After Christmas I was told to eff-off every day for a week. We couldn't exclude the
kids because we were 'over our quota and the figures won't look good'.
We've had a number of teachers questioned by police because kids make up stories about being hit. Even when there's been a roomful of
people, they still make up stories that they fought with their teacher. Not one of the other 30 people witnessed it. We had a lady who was a supply
teacher who'd been working in New York schools for 14 years and she ended the day in tears. She had never seen anything like it.
We are a 'good' school. They keep telling us.
The kids play the system because they understand there can be no meaningful comeback. The school wants them in because they get paid for the number of
students.
I put most of it down to daytime TV sh!t-for-brains parents. When you've got nice parents with time for their kids, you've got nice kids.
Some kids succeed in spite of their parents. I admire them.
I personally favour a big electricity-generating treadmill for the difficult ones. They can't be educated, but they can work off the effects of
all that blue pop and junk-food whilst providing a service for the community and getting fit.
My neighbour, also a teacher, just wants to render them and spread them over fields. I think he's harsh. I'll stick with my eletricity
generating scheme.
Many teachers have never worked in industry (I call industry "proper jobs" must to the chagrin of my staffroom colleagues ) and
haven't seen what goes on to cocky-know-it-all-gobshytes. I put them at their ease my saying "It's OK. When he gets a job, they kick
his head in!"
Cheers,
Neil.
Your sort make me sick
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flak monkey
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| posted on 29/1/05 at 02:55 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Noodle
I'm a teacher in a secondary school in Wolverhampton. After Christmas I was told to eff-off every day for a week. We couldn't exclude the
kids because we were 'over our quota and the figures won't look good'.
We've had a number of teachers questioned by police because kids make up stories about being hit. Even when there's been a roomful of
people, they still make up stories that they fought with their teacher. Not one of the other 30 people witnessed it. We had a lady who was a supply
teacher who'd been working in New York schools for 14 years and she ended the day in tears. She had never seen anything like it.
We are a 'good' school. They keep telling us.
The kids play the system because they understand there can be no meaningful comeback. The school wants them in because they get paid for the number of
students.
I put most of it down to daytime TV sh!t-for-brains parents. When you've got nice parents with time for their kids, you've got nice kids.
Some kids succeed in spite of their parents. I admire them.
I personally favour a big electricity-generating treadmill for the difficult ones. They can't be educated, but they can work off the effects of
all that blue pop and junk-food whilst providing a service for the community and getting fit.
My neighbour, also a teacher, just wants to render them and spread them over fields. I think he's harsh. I'll stick with my eletricity
generating scheme.
Many teachers have never worked in industry (I call industry "proper jobs" must to the chagrin of my staffroom colleagues ) and
haven't seen what goes on to cocky-know-it-all-gobshytes. I put them at their ease my saying "It's OK. When he gets a job, they kick
his head in!"
Cheers,
Neil.
I agree completely
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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phelpsa
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| posted on 29/1/05 at 03:30 PM |
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If we ever gave any cheek to our teachers were would be sat at home for a week. Disrespecting a teacher gets a bigger punishment than stealing a
mobile phone, and rightly so.All the teachers are very nice, and fair.
I suppose there is a difference in that I am in public school, so classes are smaller, more attention is given by the teacher, so there isn't
really any need to attract attention to yourself. Of course, we have our fair share of rebels.
Adam
[Edited on 29-1-05 by phelpsa]
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mangogrooveworkshop
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 posted on 29/1/05 at 04:27 PM |
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the figures are scary
The main findings are:
* During 2002/03 there were 36,496 exclusions from local authority primary, secondary and special schools in Scotland, a decrease of three per
cent from 2001/02. Over 99 per cent of all exclusions were temporary. In 292 cases, pupils were removed from the register of the school, a decrease of
12 per cent from the 2001/02 figure of 332. Overall, male pupils accounted for 81 per cent of exclusions. (Tables 1 and 4)
* Eleven per cent of all exclusions were from primary schools. There were 10 exclusions per 1,000 pupils in primary schools in 2002/03. Exclusions
in primary school decreased from around 4,500 in 1999/00 to 4,131 in 2002/03. (Tables 2a, 3a and 14)
* Eighty-five per cent of all exclusions were from secondary schools. In 2002/03 there were 98 exclusions per 1,000 pupils in secondary schools.
Exclusion rates peaked during S3, with 170 exclusions per 1,000 pupils. Exclusions in secondary schools decreased from 33,197 in 1999/2000 to 31,055
in 2002/03. (Tables 2b, 3b, and 14)
* Four per cent of all exclusions in 2002/03 were from special schools. There were 173 exclusions per 1,000 pupils in special schools. Exclusions
in special schools have generally increased since 1999/2000. (Tables 2c, 3c and 14)
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/stats/bulletins/00321-00.asp
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Hellfire
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| posted on 29/1/05 at 05:07 PM |
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So from that Mango we can all assume that from the figures, things are getting better?
That's is total tripe isn't it? I think we can agree that the situation is becoming worse, but with exclusion targets pupils/students will
not be excluded simply to keep the figures down. I've seen this myself... and for what it's worth most of the teachers I have spoken to
all agree that caning should be re-instated.
Over...
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zenarcher
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| posted on 29/1/05 at 05:29 PM |
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I am a Teacher in a very small Secondary School in the Western Isles of Scotland, about 100 pupils.
We have really no dicipline problems at all, the last pupil to be suspended from this School was in 1999.
I spent 12 years in "difficult" Schools on the mainland teaching "challenging" pupils Technical, in my last School a Teacher
was set on fire.
I do not support corporal punishment,it will not come back, ever.
I feel that parents need to be made much more accountable for the action of their children, but having met the parents of some of the more disruptive
pupils, I could see that they did not have any idea of how to "parent".
One of the reasons we do not have dicipline problems here is because it is a small community and there would be great shame on your family if you were
suspended from School, here the Teacher is always right,no question.
This is also true for the community at large, the Western Isles have a very low crime rate, I never lock my car, or the house or indeed take the keys
out of the ignition.
What the answer is elsewhere I do not know, but it is a society thing, is it not?
Society gets the behaviour it deserves....
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Lawnmower
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| posted on 29/1/05 at 05:38 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by zenarcher
, in my last School a Teacher was set on fire.
(sic)
Society gets the behaviour it deserves....
That teacher must have really been asking for it then.
[Edited on 29/1/05 by Lawnmower]
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Simon
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| posted on 30/1/05 at 01:09 AM |
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My headmaster at school had a glass fronted case with about a dozen canes in it. I never got it, but then I was good!
Saying that I got the plimsole off the one teacher who demanded respect in the school - if you mucked around in class he'd kick your head in!!
He, strangley enough, was the only one to get me though an O level. Lack of discipline from the rest of class disrupted my learning!!
When I first started at that school, one of the maths teachers had a cat'o'nine tales in his case!! I never saw it used, but I did witness
him deck someone with a cricket ball round the head (chap who got hit was bullying a younger chap and subsequently expelled for male rape).
Forget corporoal punishment in schools, bring in capital punishment.
Another chap was expelled for credit card fraud. Head didn't tell his next school why he had been expelled, and he ended up murdering a (IIRC)
Japanese student.
Schooling is too easy for kids these days - anyone see the reprinted exam paper in the Mail a few weeks ago, set in about 1850.
I suspect very few of today's well educated people would fair very well!!
ATB
Simon
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theconrodkid
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| posted on 30/1/05 at 08:45 AM |
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went to a party last night and a heated argument broke out about this very subject,we all came to the conclusion that the "pc" brigade
were responsible for the decline in standards and the rise in crime cos kids know they can get away with it and continue their behaviour into adult
life,except 1 person who is a probation officer,she was in tears because not one person would agree with her left wing attitude ,she thinks
"counciling"works even when shown it dosnt and her admitting the re-offending rate is very high.
never happened in my time at school,the cane /slipper was allways at hand and very rearly used,twas a long time ago tho
who cares who wins
pass the pork pies
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Noodle
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| posted on 30/1/05 at 08:54 AM |
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We had a questionnaire through the post yesterday from the Conservative party. As I was short of reading material on a hurried dash to the smallest
room, I was able to give it my undivided attention for a few minutes.
They were asking what improvements could me made to education. But they're asking the wrong question and it is a question that no mainstream
political party is prepared to answer because it requires huge effort on behalf of voters.
Zenarcher was right when he spoke of societies attitudes. Many of the parents from my school don't give a chuff about anything because
there's always a cushion to fall back on, be it drugs, social security, Trisha or whatever.
If mums (or dads) stayed and looked after their children and helped them to mature, then many of socieities ills would, if perhaps not be cured, at
least be relieved of some of the symptoms. But all political parties are based on an individuals greed (certainly since Thatcher's time), and
taking one wage earner out of the workplace will not help the nation become richer and hence the party in power will not be showered in an associative
glory.
Our exclusions have fallen dramatically because we keep the nutters in a separate area within the school so they don't show up on statistics.
That's an 'internal exclusion'
I've had discussions, fuelled by booze with many of my mates (non-teachers) and most reckon that as liberal attitutes gradually remove all
barriers to poor discipline (I'm not talking just about schools now) that it's impossible for things to improve. Look at history and these
could well be the augers of a cataclysmic event that them imposes a draconian regime back on society.
In laymans terms, things will turn to sh!t ,there'll be a revolution/war/coup D'etat/PM's heart attack or something and a hard line
regime will take control. That's roughly how things have worked historically.
Blair's lucky that he's found a new bogeyman in the form of Bin Laden etc because the social fear keeping people in line politically
creates a certain amount of social cohesion. We were all scared of the commies right? It's in his interest to keep this one hammed up.
Cheers,
Neil.
p.s. The number of kids who openly say that they're going to get rich from suing someone for something, anything is worrying becuase they
actually believe it.
Your sort make me sick
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