Sam_68
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| posted on 6/2/18 at 08:41 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by scootz
quote:
Originally posted by nelmo
I hate this sort of pointless regulation - is forcing a couple of hundred cars off the road going to save any polar bears? 
I hate this sort of pointless post.
We are living on a dying planet, and every little helps... even if it miffs big kids at play!
The universe does not revolve around me, myself, or I.
So we have to get with the emissions programme!? So what! Deal with it!
I kind of agree with this: might as well argue for a special exemption for cars owned anyone called Steven Briggs... there will only be a handful of
those, too.
It's a bugger, and yet another nail in the coffin of the UK kit car industry, but the coffin itself was built way back in 1998 when SVA was
introduced. The time to fight it was then.
Since this legislation is linked to EU conformity, and we've just voted away our rights to even have a say in that legislation for the
Brexit transitional period, I reckon that the chances of influencing this are precisely nil.
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craigdiver
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| posted on 6/2/18 at 09:34 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by PorkChop
I think this is being blown out of proportion a bit and people are getting confused; the people that really need to worry about this is those fitting
80s or earlier engines. As I said earlier, the DfT seems to have made the assumption that if you have a Euro 1 or later engine, then you have the
hardware to meet the 2002 MOT limits. This is an assumption I can understand, a big enough cat with enough precious metal, enough temperature and not
running rich should be enough to oxidise enough CO and HC to meet the limits.
To put it in perspective, I have a very early, pre Euro 1 MX5 engine (which does have a cat and EFi). I'm not overly concerned about the
proposals, it's just the exhaust line will need a bit of thought.
This is great info PorkChop - just to be crystal clear, you mention the need to meet Euro 1 for MOT, does this also apply to cars going through IVA?
(you need to be able to pass 2002 MOT limits to pass IVA emissions test?)
If it ain't broken, fix it anyway (just because).
Building - BMW powered Haynes Roadster/442E hybrid.
Volvo C30 T5 Polestar
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ianhurley20
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| posted on 6/2/18 at 09:53 AM |
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Just in case anyone does have an opinion that they want to give feedback to the legislators about you can do so at
https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/road-vehicles-improving-air-quality-and-safety
but if you try to give online feedback you will be expected to give feedback with reasons on EVERY proposal
If you wish to comment on the issues about kit cars at IVA having to conform to whatever standards exist at that time you can do so by email or by
post at the details below. The question in the consultation document comes in section 4 and is question 10.
Email to:
ivs.consult@dft.gsi.gov.uk
Write to:
Robert Lloyd-Smith
Zone 1/33,
Great Minster House
33 Horseferry Road,
London,
SW1P 4DR
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jps
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| posted on 6/2/18 at 01:48 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mikeb
IVA paperwork going in this week!
On this note, does anyone know the following:
What is the usual lead time on getting an IVA date?
Are the IVA centres amenable to people contacting them directly to ask questions? (I'm in Colchester so think I will go up to Norwich for
mine)
And do we think that, in terms of retest, as long as the 'first' test is before whatever cut-off comes in for the engine, we will get an
'old' engine through - or do we think that it's going to be full completion of IVA before the cut off date which is required...?
[Edited on 6/2/18 by jps]
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MattD
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| posted on 6/2/18 at 02:08 PM |
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I helped a mate get a Murtaya kit mechanically ready just in time for the SVA cut off date before IVA came in... it had no trim & no lights, but
the engine ran (badly), and the brakes worked.
It failed obviously, but we were purely there so that it was tested under the SVA rules.
We had a long "to do list", and 6 months to retest, which it passed still under the SVA criteria. (It would have passed IVA anyway, but
mate was unnecsessarily worried).
How VOSA intend to implement the 2018 changes I dont know, but would expect similar.
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Christof
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| posted on 6/2/18 at 02:13 PM |
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did mine at Norwich a few months back
dont think there was a particularly long lead time, but assume your application has been approved and referred across to them already
doubt they would mind a few questions, but also doubt they are on the cutting edge of rule changes
webbed feet and all that (just kidding, love east anglia!)
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jps
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| posted on 6/2/18 at 02:50 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Christof
assume your application has been approved and referred across to them already
No! Until I read the info at the beginning of this post I was not even thinking to get it to IVA this year! I mean from filling in the form to apply
for IVA - through to being at the test station!
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Christof
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| posted on 6/2/18 at 04:44 PM |
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my memory isn't great so I've looked back - you'll need to fill in the IVA 1C, amateur build declaration, photos/invoices/letter re
engine age etc which can be done online and pay your £450. the only snag on mine was proof of purchase i.e to guard against stolen cars. That's
a bit tricky when you buy an incomplete project with old parts etc from another individual rather than a manufacturer, so had to show bank statement
showing payment plus a signed 'sale receipt' etc
there were a handful of emails probably took 3 weeks for the (dvsa?) process, then similar lead time for test day (vosn?).
once passed, then you have to send it all off to dvla -dvla vin application letter and garage stamped proof of vin on chassis, v55/5 application form,
v627/1 built up vehicle report (ie can i have an age related reg please), registration fee (circa £200) first tax fee £250, iva cert, photos (again!),
utility copies for proof of add etc
Throw in the transporter hire and that's £1000.
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JC
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| posted on 6/2/18 at 05:06 PM |
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My objection is that we are paying civil servants many hundreds of thousands to administer this rule change that will, in the grand scheme of things,
have a minuscule effect on worldwide emissions. How about the emission system from agricultural vehicles? There are many more of those than kit cars.
How about power station emissions? Having been to China who are building coal fired power stations at a huge rate, I fail to see how a few hundred
(at most)less Pinto engines on carbs will do anything! Save the money and get the civil servants doing something more useful!!!!!!
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Sam_68
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| posted on 6/2/18 at 05:45 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by JC
My objection is that we are paying civil servants many hundreds of thousands to administer this rule change...
Be careful what you wish for. By far the cheapest and easiest option from an administrative point of view is to stop pandering to the whims of a few
eccentric enthusiasts and ban home-built vehicles altogether.
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sdh2903
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| posted on 6/2/18 at 06:16 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by JC
My objection is that we are paying civil servants many hundreds of thousands to administer this rule change...
Be careful what you wish for. By far the cheapest and easiest option from an administrative point of view is to stop pandering to the whims of a few
eccentric enthusiasts and ban home-built vehicles altogether.
Indeed just ask some of our brothers on the continent about getting a home built car on the road. We've got it easy. Even with the new proposed
rules.
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scootz
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| posted on 6/2/18 at 08:23 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by JC
How about the emission system from agricultural vehicles? There are many more of those than kit cars...
We need to eat. And as an island nation, we need to be able to maintain an ability to produce our own food.
We don't need to build kit-cars.
It's Evolution Baby!
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andyace
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| posted on 6/2/18 at 08:38 PM |
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Ok so preparing for the worst (or best as we save the planet) .... assuming my 2.0 pinto with zx9r bike carbs won't pass emissions, what's
my cheapest option (relative term) to get an engine which does meet current emissions
Assuming I buy a brand new Zetec 2 litre blacktop whats the cheapest option to get it to pass emissions?? Can I use my ZX9r carbs on it and still pass
emissions or do I HAVE to go injection ... I have a type 9 .... would I need a cat ... ? I'm an old school engine person and don't have
the knowledge (yet) of newer engines.
A new zetec will cost me £1100 ish, how much will it cost above this to get the cheapest passable engine ??
Would appreciate some input from my knowledgeable members, thanks
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daviep
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| posted on 6/2/18 at 08:44 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by JC
My objection is that we are paying civil servants many hundreds of thousands to administer this rule change that will, in the grand scheme of things,
have a minuscule effect on worldwide emissions. How about the emission system from agricultural vehicles? There are many more of those than kit cars.
How about power station emissions? Having been to China who are building coal fired power stations at a huge rate, I fail to see how a few hundred
(at most)less Pinto engines on carbs will do anything! Save the money and get the civil servants doing something more useful!!!!!!
FYI, agricultural and plant engine emissions have been regulated since about 1999 and have been getting stricter every few years, hence why many
tractors etc now need to run adblue.
Cheers
Davie
“A truly great library contains something in it to offend everyone.”
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Edwardo
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| posted on 6/2/18 at 09:49 PM |
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Ok - As one of the people directly affected by this "proposed" (we all know it has already been decided) change, I'm also going to
ask the collective's opinion on this please:-
I was planning to go through IVA with a 1989 2.0 EFI Pinto running stock ECU.
Would this motor stand a chance of meeting current mot emissions regs with a CAT or is my motor due to join the forthcoming tidalwave of pinto's
soon to appear on Ebay?
Cheers
Tony
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jester
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| posted on 6/2/18 at 11:53 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Edwardo
Ok - As one of the people directly affected by this "proposed" (we all know it has already been decided) change, I'm also going to
ask the collective's opinion on this please:-
I was planning to go through IVA with a 1989 2.0 EFI Pinto running stock ECU.
Would this motor stand a chance of meeting current mot emissions regs with a CAT or is my motor due to join the forthcoming tidalwave of pinto's
soon to appear on Ebay?
Cheers
Tony
You think 1989 Engine is bad I am trying to finsh my jester that runs a 1.1 crossflow on a carb from a Mk1 Fiesta 1982
And it's running sweet now as well
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minibull
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| posted on 7/2/18 at 04:55 AM |
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Not much hope of my pre xflow passing. As to those who believe that a) we should think our selves lucky that we are privileged to be able to build kit
cars and b) that this change to reduce kit car emissions will make any difference to levels of pollution are I imagine the owners of cars already
which meet the limits proposed and are true optimists. Not all kit cars are built as or intended to be fast modern lotus 7 clones. Some of us like to
build replicas of older cars Jag ss's, xk's,D and C types,Cobra's, Lotus Elevens even replica's of Lotus 6's and early
Lotus 7's etc. Even on this site there is a thread running currently extolling the virtues of older type narrow wheeled cars Yes there are
fewer of us but that means total emisions from these cars comes to a total of sodd all of a percentage of total traffic emisions. Many of you
won't be affected by these changes and if you aren't directly affected then why bother objecting. Of course those of us who are affected
not only won't feel lucky to be able to be able to build cars that we don't want but also won't be involved with the kit car hobby
when the next proposals do affect your cars and you need support to be able build the cars you want. Either all those who's hobby is self
building the cars they want stick together or very soon the right to build our own car will be taken from all of us.
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Sam_68
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| posted on 7/2/18 at 07:52 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by minibull As to those who believe that a) we should think our selves lucky that we are privileged to be able to
build kit cars and b) that this change to reduce kit car emissions will make any difference to levels of pollution are I imagine the owners of cars
already which meet the limits proposed and are true optimists.
Not at all. I had plans to build a Westfield Eleven at some stage; already pretty dodgy under IVA, but since it's always been produced as
standard for the A-series engine (and very few other engines fit under the bonnet line without expensive dry sumping mods), I have no doubt that
Westfield will finally kill it off once and for all as a result of this legislative change.
That's life; poo happens, sometimes. You've just got to be pragmatic and get on with it.
Any of my friends hearing me being called a 'true optimist' would be genuinely amused, I am sure!
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SJ
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| posted on 7/2/18 at 10:54 AM |
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quote:
quote:
Originally posted by JC
How about the emission system from agricultural vehicles? There are many more of those than kit cars...
We need to eat. And as an island nation, we need to be able to maintain an ability to produce our own food.
We don't need to build kit-cars.
yep, we'll only need to keep a couple of billion kit cars off the road to off set one of the coal fired power stations being built!
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Sam_68
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| posted on 7/2/18 at 11:30 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by SJ
yep, we'll only need to keep a couple of billion kit cars off the road to off set one of the coal fired power stations being built!
No coal fired power stations are being built in the UK, nor have they been for some time.
Last year in fact experienced our first 'coal free' day of power generation in the UK, along with the first day when power generation by
renewables exceeded that by fossil fuel. Most of our remaining fossil fuel stations are gas fired, so you could say that they're
'LPG', which is acknowledged as a relatively low emissions alternative when used on road vehicles.
We're heading toward all newly registered vehicles being hybrid, then probably pure EV, within the next 20 years, so were going to have to get
with the programme somewhere along the line... I'm sure that no-one would suggest that it will be acceptable for self-builders to be registering
uncatalysed, carburettored petrol engines when everything else is ultra-low or zero emissions?
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russbost
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| posted on 8/2/18 at 09:07 AM |
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The main thing that concerns me is the "tested to current MoT limits" - now, currently the MoT manual states " vehicles after 2002
but not on the annex" (obviously no kitcar will be on the annex) - nut then for ANY current vehicle which is listed on the annex "as
stated in the annex" - without having a copy of the annex I think those figures are actually slightly less onerous. HOWEVER surely vehicles
complying with Euro 6 & above must have to meet higher requirements at manufacture - is there any intention to introduce tougher limits at MoT, so
far as I am aware there is nothing in the consultation about such possible changes.
Further the thing everyone is raving about re air pollution is NOxes, so is it likely that a NOx measurement is to be introduced to the MoT? If not
then it makes the whole emission testing fiasco all the more ridiculous.
A NOx test would be a total game changer, it's not impossible to get a 30 year old engine to meet the emissions requirements (not saying
it's easy, saying it's possible) for the purpose of the IVA test as it is at 2 specific RPM areas, both of which correspond to very low
throttle openings - I get our ZZR1400 engines thro' for instance which were never intended to pass such emission tests - the chance of them ever
actually meeting those emission standards whilst on the road is a whole different conversation. But for NOxes so far as I'm aware it's
largely withing the actual engine design & original intended management system, so not something you could easily play with afterwards
So if this is agreed as is, & if MoT limits change, you could be suddenly & swiftly shafted with little or no notice, I feel therefore that
this is to be resisted as best we can & the best way is for us to make our no.'s (albeit small) felt
As has already been said, if you attempt to object online you have to go thro' every single Q on the form when it is only a specific area we are
interested in commenting on, I would suggest therefore that EVERYONE writes to
Robert Lloyd-Smith
Zone 1/33,
Great Minster House
33 Horseferry Road,
London,
SW1P 4DR
Clearly stating their objections, ie that given the small no. of vehicles affected compared with worldwide emissions this legislation will have almost
zero effect, however on those small no. of kitcars/specials, which are using recycled engines which would otherwise generate more scrap, the costs
& amount of work this would inflict on the owners/builders would be entirely unfair & would be likely to reduce or eliminate one of our unique
UK cottage industries & many of the parts & component suppliers that deal in these markets - something along those lines, please don't
digress into anything about retrospective legislation for cars already registered, it does NOT apply to those vehicles
Let's present a united front
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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mattf
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| posted on 8/2/18 at 12:38 PM |
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Some info. on the Complete Kitcar magazine website here
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Sam_68
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| posted on 8/2/18 at 01:16 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mattf
Some info. on the Complete Kitcar magazine website here
OK... so that seems clear enough:
1) There is no effect on cars that have already been registered.
2) Cars that are registered once the change has been implemented will simply have to meet the MOT test requirement for post-1992 vehicles (which
effectively means fuel injection and a catalyst).
Is anyone losing any sleep over those requirements?
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andyace
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| posted on 8/2/18 at 01:44 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by mattf
Some info. on the Complete Kitcar magazine website here
OK... so that seems clear enough:
1) There is no effect on cars that have already been registered.
2) Cars that are registered once the change has been implemented will simply have to meet the MOT test requirement for post-1992 vehicles (which
effectively means fuel injection and a catalyst).
Is anyone losing any sleep over those requirements?
erm yes me, if it goes through then I need to scrap the Pinto unit and parts I have bought over the years and spend tons more on an engine which will
pass emissions which will be significantly more expensive.
While I'm not against the proposal I feel it's a bit unfair on those part way through a build. I'd be happy for it to be in force
from 2020
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loggyboy
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| posted on 8/2/18 at 02:02 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
2) Cars that are registered once the change has been implemented will simply have to meet the MOT test requirement for post-1992 vehicles (which
effectively means fuel injection and a catalyst).
As i read the gov document its not Post 92 regs, its current Mot regulations, meaning a CAT test (post 2002)
Compared to the non CAT test applied to 92-2002 cars.
Thats a big jump in HC and CO levels.
[Edited on 8-2-18 by loggyboy]
Mistral Motorsport
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