atm92484
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| posted on 12/11/13 at 08:34 PM |
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Great looking work. Having made a few molds for body parts and knowing how much work it is I wouldn't have the dedication to do what you are
doing - you deserve a lot of credit. I can't wait to see the finished product.
-Andrew
Build Log
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FuryRebuild
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| posted on 13/11/13 at 12:04 PM |
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Thanks Andrew - sometimes a friendly comment like this is what is needed to keep one going 
This will be the last time I build the car I recon (it's the third time now:
- The initial build, with a nod to hill-climbing
- properly wrecking it at harewood and having to rebuild it again, with a much greater emphasis on motorsport
- realising it was rusting, and hence the current rebuild, and going for carbon not hammerite to manage the rust
Cheers
Mark
quote:
Originally posted by atm92484
Great looking work. Having made a few molds for body parts and knowing how much work it is I wouldn't have the dedication to do what you are
doing - you deserve a lot of credit. I can't wait to see the finished product.
When all you have is a hammer, everything around you is a nail.
www.furyrebuild.co.uk
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FuryRebuild
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| posted on 18/12/13 at 12:01 AM |
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The Fuel Tank pattern makes progress
Here's the low-down on the composite fuel tank I'm making. There's more on this tank at my blog
here, including my reasoning for doing this.
So, work on the tank progresses. I've got the top part mostly clad in sheet CSM, but now am focusing on the lower part - I need to do this in
order to be sure the top tank mates well to the lower tank - they're going to be made as two tanks then bonded. I can't make them as two
totally separate but connected tanks because the fuel level sensor wasn't bought to work like that.
Here is the tank on the bench - you can see where I've started to clad it in sheet chopped-strand-mat (CSM).
 
Description
Here is how it looks with some of the sheet clad into place. Note that I'm not stepping it as the cut kingspan in above shows. If I were to try
and follow that, there would be two consequences: Firstly, less capacity. Secondly getting cloth to follow tight right-angles won't work and
will lead to bridging and a weaker part. I will take the orbital sander to all the edges where the places meet to smooth them out. They'll then
be filled with bog and coated with resin so I can make a mould from it. Needless to say, I will have to be sure the bog is slightly recessed so after
being painted with resin (to seal it) I don't create an unwanted positive profile that gives me mechanical lock in the mould. Even half a
millimeter may make it so hard to get the part out without destroying the mould. I'm not intending to reuse the mould but it would be a massive
shame to destroy it in case I ever need to modify the part.
 
Description
Here we have the trial holder for the ATL Fuel Sender Probe. The housing is a cut down mixing cup and it's set at an angle to point the sender
down into the tank. Once the angle is right and it sits just where I want it in the lower tank I will glass over this so it becomes part of the main
tank (that is, part of the part of the main tank that becomes the mould.
 
Description
Here is the tank screwed into place on temporary brackets using self tapping screws. I know the fuel-sender will sit a little proud of the old boot
floor, but that doesn't bother me. I'd sooner make a demountable hat of some description for it rather than have the tank lower and lose
capacity. I had to screw the tank in early to be sure I had reliable datum points when locating and attaching the lower tank.
 
Description
Here you can see the tank avoiding the diff-attaching plate and the diagonal uprights that are part of the diff-carrier. The angle isn't great
but it I have at least an 25mm between the tank and all uprights. On reflection, the clearance is a little too great and I may be losing a little
capacity. However, if I'm in a sideways shunt I have a lot of room for things to deform. The layup will also be very tough - aramid and e-glass.
This will have massive impact resistance, and using layers of e-glass rather than carbon will add a little flexibility. This is not load-bearing or
structural.
 
Description
I had to build in two recesses, one on either side - the assembly order is specific here. The tank goes in first and the diff carrier second. This
means I need to leave enough room around the tank to get a bolt in to secure the diff carrier. And I did - I'm quite pleased with myself.
 
Description
Here's the top view of the top tank. Note the massive void behind it, which is where the old tank sat, well high and well outside of the axle
line. You appreciate how bad this is for polar moment of inertia, right? I was tempted to add some extra bulges on the back of the tank under the
roll-bar, but this will be putting mass outside/behind the axle line. What's the point of taking such a purist view if I then compromise? If I
find myself really struggling for range I can always add a tank in this void where the old tank was. If it's empty it will only add a kilo or
two. My future plan is to remove the tank-mounting frame at the back and replace it all with a single CF crush-cell. This follow's
Warren's law of composites. The new part will be lighter, and stronger than the rotting steel it replaces.
 
Description
Here's the lower part of the tank in place. The wooden bits show there the original guestimate cuts of kingspan need extending out to in order
to maximise volume available. This angle doesn't show it well, but there's an inch minimum between the tank bottom and the prop. Again,
it's an IRS so the prop isn't moving anywhere unless it lets go. The tank also swells out at the sides at the back (where the two sticks
cross). There's about half a litre or so to be gained by swelling out the sides like this.
 
Description
All these little additions to capacity may not seem a lot, but if every half-litre can be baked in then I make serious gains in capacity. Bearing in
mind the old tank weighed 6KG and carried 18L of fuel in the wrong place, I feel this will be a step forward.
When all you have is a hammer, everything around you is a nail.
www.furyrebuild.co.uk
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FuryRebuild
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| posted on 5/2/14 at 09:56 PM |
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Fuel Tank update
So, a lot has moved on tank wise.
As ever, pictures speak louder than words. This is the tank-part now extracted from the car, and you can see it’s more or less like a model from
StarWars. In the second picture you can see how it runs down the tunnel. The cut-outs in the top-left and top-right corners are to provide a recess
for the sockets (as in socket set) so I can do up the diff mounting brackets. In order to get the tank in and out, the diff and brackets need to be
dropped down to floor level (excluding the height of the the trolley jack it sits on) to get the tank in. What I needed to avoid was boxing myself in
with the tank. If I had forgotten this bit, then I wouldn't be able to get the tank in or out.
 
Description
On the sides of the tank, tt’s important to get decent radius edges here – if the carbon is just shoved into what’s more or less a 90 degree bend then
it will bridge between the laminates, or between the laminates and the mould (filling the gap with resin). Not only does it weaken things, but you’re
putting unnecessary amounts of resin in. Don’t forget this stuff is £20 per kg, so you don’t waste it. In order to put a radius in, I originally had
started sanding around the curves and bogging in the gaps. I knew this wouldn’t be perfect because I’m not a sculptor. However, the tank wouldn’t be
on display, so I thought I’d not be terribly worried. In retrospect, this clashes with the very pleasing weight-loss OCD I have developed around
weight loss.
Whilst looking for insulation in B&Q, and I had a revelation. They have 16mm quadrant beading.
 
Description
It’s cheap, and easy to put into the part. When I say easy, you cut a channel 16mm in from the edge and then stick the beading in. Once done, you
have to start blending with bog when you go around the corners.
 
Description
Here you can see the sharp edges, and the 16mm offset lines I've marked to cut out for the beading.
So, I went and cut out all the edges I had radiused (sp?) by hand, and put the beading in. Basically, you use your combination square to measure in
16mm from the corner in to each side, cut with an angle grinder and off you go.
There’s a bonus to this, which is the quadrant beading squares up the edges to the eye. The gaps between the edges and the poly sheet are made up with
bog. So, it’s win-win. The picture below shows how tidy it looks with the beading in place.
 
Description
I’ve tried a couple of ways to stick the beading in after cutting the raw part, and the main way is to use bog again. Hot glue is great for an instant
stick, but you can’t sand it and it isn’t as strong a set as bog. The only downside of bog is that it takes about 15 minutes to go off so you find
yourself doing all the work in batches, or alternating between one part of the tank and another. It’s fine and efficient swapping between the parts
until you have to join both bits together.
Here is the near finished tank, and you can see most of the radius edges. I reckon there’s 60 hours of work in this, 4 metres of quadrant beading and
nearly a full large tin of bog. A skilled part-maker would do this in half the time, to more accuracy. I'm not done yet - more bogging and
flatting, then bogging in the flange for the fuel level sender, then high-build primer, polish and we're done. Then I can take a mould.
 
Description
Myself, I’m chuffed. I think the tank will save me 5kg from the overall sprung weight.
When all you have is a hammer, everything around you is a nail.
www.furyrebuild.co.uk
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matt_gsxr
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| posted on 5/2/14 at 10:36 PM |
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Thanks for writing this up in such detail.
Do you think you will need lots of baffles in that? Just thinking about braking hard and all the fuel rushing forwards away from the pickup with
strange weight transfer effects on handing.
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FuryRebuild
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| posted on 5/2/14 at 11:33 PM |
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It's probably going to be a 4 piece mould with the top of the tank as one piece. As such I will put baffles in there, bonded in.. I was going to
originally go for flap gates but there's a slim risk they will stick. Each baffle will be cross drilled to allow some flow.
Once baffled in, the top will be bonded in and ... Ta-data, composite tank
When all you have is a hammer, everything around you is a nail.
www.furyrebuild.co.uk
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FuryRebuild
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| posted on 18/4/14 at 09:55 AM |
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More on the composite fuel tank
As ever, more on the build is blogged at www.furyrebuild.co.uk.
So, I’ve laid up two of the four quarters of my composite fuel tank mould. It’s a simple layup of gel-coat, and then three layers of 450gsm chopped
strand mat, set in polyester resin. Nowt flash.
Since I’ve done the first half and the second half mated to it, I’ve learned a couple of lessons:
- cut a lot of cloth to templates to fit the major areas – handy that I had the spare flanges from the first mould-part to size the cloth – this
wasn’t an option when the first flange went in.
- run at 1% to 1.5% catalyst – The gel-coat needs to form a chemical bond to the resin in the backing layers, and that is done with the exothermic
reaction when the resin goes off. In the first mould-part I found the exotherm was kicking in before the final layer went down. This meant that the
fibres were setting whilst sticking up and making lumps. lumps mean bubbles, gaps and bridging. With the second mould-part, I used the bare minimum of
catalyst and the exotherm only really kicked in as I was putting the last piece on. This is perfect and gives the gel a good baking. Each mould-part
needed about 2.2kg of resin.
- don’t leave any spiky bits after a layer is finished – it just makes it worse the next layer. See above. Roller them carefully flat.
- Apply only one layer of gel-coat. Again, mixed with minimum catalyst in order to get it on once without gelling. I have other jobs to get done so I
wasn’t watching the gel-coat go off. Experts spray this on and bank on about 0.4mm of gel-coat. Painting this on means 1-3 mm. However, that gives me
plenty to polish into.
- Don’t try and paint gel-coat on if it starts to gel in the pot. scrap and mix more. my previous attempt with gel-coat did go a little lumpy, making
the lumps and bumps worse – see 3 above
Ok, picturewhores - here is the good looking mould-part, followed by the not quite so good looking first attempt.
good looking mould half - still needs trimming though.
 
Description
-
first mould half - I learned a lot doing this. You can see it's got more lumps than a junkies arm. Worst case if the gel-coat
isn't supported is that I redo this flange against the first flange.
 
Description
both mould parts together
 
Description
When all you have is a hammer, everything around you is a nail.
www.furyrebuild.co.uk
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FuryRebuild
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| posted on 23/4/14 at 10:42 PM |
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More on the fuel tank
So, I had an idea about capturing some of the trickier flange shapes. I'd tried paper templates and had a reasonable amount of success, but then
I remembered I had a tile-shape transfer thingy stuck in the loft somewhere. Here it is, and here is it capturing the shape:
 
Description
Here's one of the top corners of the tank, flanged up, taped up and waxed up:
 
Description
I've also discovered that in anything like reasonable temperatures (10C and above) the winter catalyst means it will gel in the pot before
I've got all the resin down. It's already a speedy and physical process getting all the resin down on three layers of 450g CSM, rollered
flat and bubbles out. So, in order to not faff about with cutting cloth, I experimented with marking up and making all the pieces I needed for the
next layup. The other advantage is that I don't need to keep track of just which bits I've laid up - when I've ran out of piece
"thing" I know i've completed that part of the layup.
 
Description
And thus, we have the flanges in place
 
Description
When all you have is a hammer, everything around you is a nail.
www.furyrebuild.co.uk
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designer
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| posted on 24/4/14 at 11:19 AM |
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My question is:
Is this tank OK for IVA as it will not be certified? Or is it a retro fit only?
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FuryRebuild
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| posted on 24/4/14 at 11:28 AM |
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Hi
Firstly, this tank is a retro-fit, so I don't have IVA to worry about. Secondly, it should still be compliant. The filler neck will be as the
same as my original fury (back, top of the boot), and the tank is in the transmission tunnel, not the passenger/driver compartments nor is it in the
engine bay. It's actually far more protected than the original fury tank is.
I'm going to make a set of composite prop-catchers as well, so there shouldn't be any issue with impact. Even saying that, the majority of
the tank will be made with an aramid (that is, Kevlar) layup, so it's going to be proper impact proof.
From a personal testing point of view, I'm going to firstly pressure test it, and then vacuum test it. I reckon it'll be good for 10PSI
and full vac.
I am hoping to save mass with the tank, but most significantly I want to move the mass in front of the rear axle line to reduce polar moment of
inertia - I think I will achieve significant handling improvements in doing this. I can then replace the void where the tank is with a full carbon
crush-structure, should I get rear-ended.
Please keep asking questions - the more things I have to think about, the better a tank it will be.
Thanks
Mark
When all you have is a hammer, everything around you is a nail.
www.furyrebuild.co.uk
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FuryRebuild
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| posted on 24/4/14 at 11:29 AM |
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I've just re-read your question - what certification is required for IVA? interesting one, that.
When all you have is a hammer, everything around you is a nail.
www.furyrebuild.co.uk
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mcerd1
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| posted on 24/4/14 at 01:16 PM |
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IVA
quote:
03A Fuel Tanks
2. The vehicle must be accompanied by satisfactory evidence that the tank is
designed for road use or the fuel tank is an original fitment to a mass
produced vehicle, or has been previously and is un-modified.(See Note 2).
Note 2: Plastic Fuel Tanks
Check that the fuel tank:
Is unmodified and an original fitment in the case of a mass
produced vehicle or
Appears to have previously been fitted to a mass produced
vehicle or
Is accompanied by satisfactory evidence provided by the
tank manufacturer or approval authority showing that it has
been manufactured and tested to meet the standards
required for road use.
thats all the manual says
[Edited on 24/4/2014 by mcerd1]
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FuryRebuild
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| posted on 25/4/14 at 08:27 AM |
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"Satisfactory Evidence" is the interesting one.
My plan isn't to make these commercially, but were I to do so, I suppose evidence for a customer would be a certificate from a company
that's registered in England, and traceable. If you went down the aerospace route, then each part of the lay-up would be photographed as the
tank was made. Actually, whist that would add time to the manufacturing process, having the layup photographed with your certificate itself in the
background of the photo should provide outstanding evidence. Furthermore, I would also do an impact test on a trial tank only, to whatever the SEI or
others say is the standard impact penetration test, if there is one which would be a weight (say 10kg) and a surface area of 10mm squared dropped
vertically onto the piece from a height of 2m. After the impact, it would need a pressure test again. This would be repeatable and would show the tank
taking impacts. I'd video this and put it on the sales website.
It would be interesting to see how a standard steel tank (say mg midget from the fury originally) would stand up to this kind of impact. A pressure
test is an odd one (I'd want it for my own piece of mind) because the tank must have a vent valve. Obviously, one must be fuel and pressure
tight up to the vent pressure, but I'd test to at least twice that.
Thanks for getting me thinking
Mark
When all you have is a hammer, everything around you is a nail.
www.furyrebuild.co.uk
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FuryRebuild
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| posted on 7/8/14 at 07:48 PM |
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Transformers - fuel tanks in disguise
Right then - it's been quite a journey to get to this point, but here is the prototype composite fuel tank for my Fury.
It's gone from this set of moulds
 
Description
To this set of parts
 
Description
To this completed prototype tank
 
Description
The old MG Midget tank weighed 5.85Kg, and this prototype weighs 2.17Kg. It's laid up in two layers of 450gsm chopped strand mat in a very
resin-rich wetlay, and bearing in mind i intend to use 2 layers of 350 kevlar, with two layers of 200gsm e-glass and some soric ribs, I think the
final tank will be a similar weight.
This tank is for checking fit and measuring capacity. Unfortunately, some of the seams I laid in to join the parts aren't the best sealed, so
I'll go over them tomorrow with tank-tape before I fill it full of water.
When all you have is a hammer, everything around you is a nail.
www.furyrebuild.co.uk
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ceebmoj
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| posted on 7/8/14 at 09:23 PM |
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Does it fit?
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FuryRebuild
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| posted on 7/8/14 at 09:27 PM |
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Weirdly, I timed out before I could check the fundamental thing. I will know tomorrow.
When all you have is a hammer, everything around you is a nail.
www.furyrebuild.co.uk
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iank
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| posted on 8/8/14 at 06:55 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by FuryRebuild
"Satisfactory Evidence" is the interesting one.
My plan isn't to make these commercially, but were I to do so, I suppose evidence for a customer would be a certificate from a company
that's registered in England, and traceable. If you went down the aerospace route, then each part of the lay-up would be photographed as the
tank was made. Actually, whist that would add time to the manufacturing process, having the layup photographed with your certificate itself in the
background of the photo should provide outstanding evidence. Furthermore, I would also do an impact test on a trial tank only, to whatever the SEI or
others say is the standard impact penetration test, if there is one which would be a weight (say 10kg) and a surface area of 10mm squared dropped
vertically onto the piece from a height of 2m. After the impact, it would need a pressure test again. This would be repeatable and would show the tank
taking impacts. I'd video this and put it on the sales website.
That wouldn't even get close to the required level IMO (I work for a company producing automotive spec components and it's a minefield)
Automotive testing is extremely rigorous especially in safety critical areas like fuel components. Even buying copies of the standards would cost a
significant chunk of money and that's the only way to find out how things must be tested before you figure out what they must do to pass.
Repeatability is also massively important.
This place does the kind of testing required to get a commercial automotive tank to market. http://www.intertek.com/automotive/fuel-system/ Gives an
idea what tests would be needed.
Automotive is only a hair behind aerospace in the requirements these days. A lot being driven by big boys like VW.
--
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
Anonymous
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FuryRebuild
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| posted on 12/8/14 at 09:22 PM |
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It fits !
Well, to answer ceebmoj's question - Yes, it fits. It fits well.
Here's a couple of pictures to wet your appetite.
tank from the top
you can also see the recesses (at least the one on the left) where I've left enough room to get the air-wrench in so the diff cradle can be
bolted back in place.
 
Description
fit in the tunnel
There's a good centimeter around the tank and everything else.
 
Description
Prop Clearance
The clearance to the prop is great - this is it with the diff raised back into place. The end here also forms the sump for the in-tank fuel pump
 
Description
When all you have is a hammer, everything around you is a nail.
www.furyrebuild.co.uk
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ceebmoj
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| posted on 12/8/14 at 10:08 PM |
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Looks great and with all the effort you have put in I'm happy it fits.
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stevebubs
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| posted on 12/8/14 at 10:57 PM |
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Looks good. However 1 comment - surely it would be relatively easy for someone to replicate that in sheet metal now you've done the hard work of
figuring out the dimensions and mocking it up?
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FuryRebuild
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| posted on 12/8/14 at 11:12 PM |
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Hi Steve. Sure they could. Huge amounts of time to into the buck and the mould. Cracking the composite part out is trivial.
However, an ally tank will be heavier and way less strong and less resilient to impact.
This isn't a commercial venture, just making my are handle well
When all you have is a hammer, everything around you is a nail.
www.furyrebuild.co.uk
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Dopdog
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| posted on 13/8/14 at 08:15 AM |
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HI Mark,
looks great but how much fuel will it hold? and do you need it that big?
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FuryRebuild
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| posted on 13/8/14 at 09:02 AM |
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Thanks - it was a real investment in time, but it's come off.
It was also an apprentice piece, as it were, so I moved cautiously, and had to develop some techniques on the way (such as using quadrant beading to
round the corners off).
quote:
Originally posted by ceebmoj
Looks great and with all the effort you have put in I'm happy it fits.
When all you have is a hammer, everything around you is a nail.
www.furyrebuild.co.uk
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FuryRebuild
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| posted on 13/8/14 at 09:08 AM |
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I reckon it's going to be good for 30L with my initial estimates. For endurance runs, and whatnot, that's what I need. If I want less, the
tank will be baffled at the bottom, and the lower part is good for 15L. If I only half fill it, I'm only wasting 1kg of unused tank space.
However, when I was trying to fill it with water it sprung multiple leaks. I'm not bothered because:
quote:
Originally posted by Dopdog
HI Mark,
looks great but how much fuel will it hold? and do you need it that big?
- two layers of CSM without gelcoat on the outside will always have pinholes
- I used a UV curing resin, which is great for the cure times, but tends to distort a tiny bit from the part if it cures too fast, and that's
what happened with a point on the seam
When all you have is a hammer, everything around you is a nail.
www.furyrebuild.co.uk
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FuryRebuild
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| posted on 13/8/14 at 07:57 PM |
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Here's how I intend to fit the tank to the car, at least at the top.
These are "big Head" fasteners. You key the part, and put a large glob of the special 2 part epoxy adhesive on there, push the fastener on
and let it set - instant captive bolt.
 
Description
When all you have is a hammer, everything around you is a nail.
www.furyrebuild.co.uk
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