thomas4age
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| posted on 22/8/06 at 01:19 PM |
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Buget 20v conversion finnished
hey all,
I don't whether you'd call this Locost, but I do.
The total bill for this conversion (from 4age 16v to 2ov)
was 1200Pounds and includes an Omex500 ECU and JDM 4age 20v silvertop engine.
the previous swap from x-flow to 4age 16v cost 900pounds and included the engine, t50 toyota transmission, factory ecu + sensors, and fuel system.
and might I say that this is one of the best engines I've ever drivven.
I thought I'd share with you, I don't post a lot but read about everything thats said here and without some rather nice topics on here I
couldn't have done this so big thatnx to all!
my set-up has
stock 4age silvertop 20v engine
Omex 500 ECU
Raw enhaust system
PX filters
42mm ITB's (stock toyota)
toyota T50 Box
the dynorum was performed in 4th gear which has 1:1 ratio (so no torque
lies on this one) and the diff is 3,9:1 Liveaxle top speed in 4th is
198km/h and I havent dared yet to put it into fifth at that speed,
theoreticly it should do 250+
now if one is to find a V8 engine block where these yamaha heads will
fit on please share :-)
regards Thomas
O forgot the picca's
http://www.kitcarclub.nl/mkportal/modules/gallery/album/a_158.jpg
http://www.kitcarclub.nl/mkportal/modules/gallery/album/a_157.jpg
http://www.kitcarclub.nl/mkportal/modules/gallery/album/a_159.jpg
If Lucas made guns, Wars wouldn't start either.
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rick q
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| posted on 23/8/06 at 02:35 AM |
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The 20 valves are nice ...
But in real terms, I think you'll find it hard to crack 200k, as 5th will be too tall at those speeds. The bloke who originally built mine saw
199kph on a l o n g straight in the Targa New Zealand - but that was in 4th with a 4.1:1 diff.
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skydivepaul
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| posted on 23/8/06 at 10:00 AM |
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what BHP did it show?
are you using the standard cams?
i am thinking of using one of these engines in a future project
http://www.smartideasuk.com
http://www.smartmapping.co.uk
HD CCTV
3D design solutions and integration
IP security systems
access control systems
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thomas4age
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| posted on 23/8/06 at 11:44 AM |
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In the T50 box the 5th gear is real short ie rpm drop is very small when shifting into 5th, so it might go a tad over 200 if the straight is long
enough judging by the way it accelerates to 190+ in fourth it should be possible.
there's a dyno chart among the 3 piccies, I don't know what you exactly mean by Bhp, but there's about 155hp at the crank and 120 at
the wheels with 161nm off torque in 4th
I think it's not important at all to know what sort off power your engine has, it's important to know what's actually getting to the
floor that counts.
anyway I can really recomend this engine, it's beautifull.
grtz Thomas
If Lucas made guns, Wars wouldn't start either.
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bimbleuk
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| posted on 23/8/06 at 06:52 PM |
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Hi welcome to the club!! I've also got a Striker and a 20V 4AGE except mine is the later blacktop revision. Oh and I've also got an OMEX ECU
but a 710 model.
I had a 16V in before too and the power and smoothness of the 20V in comparison is incredible. The Striker with the 20V is a fantastic package with
just the right balance of power and handling.
Saying that I do have a spare silvertop in pieces at the mo being prepared for a little more power!
 
Original engine bay layout - front
[Edited on 23/8/06 by bimbleuk]
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DEAN C.
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| posted on 23/8/06 at 10:14 PM |
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MMM!! Very nice,keep thinking about whether to uprate my 16v with the GSXR throttle bodies I have and fit some big cams or go 20valve.
I was talking to Mel Coppack at Harrrogate and found it hard to get a engine only price from him.
Once I've finished a project why do I start another?
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bimbleuk
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| posted on 24/8/06 at 09:35 AM |
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Dean,
As you have ITBs already fitted stick to the 16V. Get the head ported and fit some cams such as TRD/HKS 272 deg. You'll get more power than the
20V.
The 20V design is fundamentally limited in valve lift. So without some major re-working the 16V will always be easier/cheaper to mod NA.
Thats why I have a Rotrex supercharger sitting at home!
As for engines, Fensport have just received a delivery from Japan. RAW buy from Fensport!
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rick q
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| posted on 25/8/06 at 04:03 AM |
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Plenty of 20 valves running out here in the colonies, though you can't use them for new builds any more (emission regs are too tight).
For info on them and the 16 valves (particularly modding them, this is the bible http://www.billzilla.org/carindex.htm . Scroll down the page and
have a wander
[Edited on 25/8/06 by rick q]
[Edited on 25/8/06 by rick q]
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bimbleuk
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| posted on 25/8/06 at 08:04 AM |
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Yep know that site like most other Toyota engine fans you'll end up there at some point!
With the 3 inlet valve design flow on the inlet side is not such an issue. The tiny exhaust ports are a restriction. For road i would keep the duation
sensible so more valve lift is needed. Except the small bucket diameter restricts the cam lobe lift. Too much and the cam tries to flip the bucket out
of the guide. So if you want to match the 16V potential then bigger exhaust bucket diameter is a good start.
Using my spare silvertop I'm eventually going supercharged so the head is being prepared by a chap called Roger at Sabre Heads. I've got a
set of mild cams (Cat cams) from RAW to try. They didn't see much gain from them but as they're free (apart from the hassle of installing
new shims) I'll have a go with my flowed head.
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thomas4age
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| posted on 25/8/06 at 02:31 PM |
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Hey Bimbleuk and all,
You are right about the 16v smallport being able to deliver more power than the 20v, but hey they did about a decade racing with it so what would one
expect.
anyway Out off the box the 20v and a decent computer is the best option still methinks and it aint that expensive at all over here, cheapest on dutch
e-bay is 850euro's for a JDM silvertop, I bought mine from Speedon at a slightly higher price but when we found out that my first 20v was
missing a bigend bearing it got replaced without cost, that was worth the extra 150 euro's to me.
I still have a 16v bigport at home and that also will be recieving lowcomp arias pistons and a rotrex one day.
but the next project will surrely be something to do with mid-engine and a 400+hp NA 1uzfe.
anyway's the 710 Omex is a NICE ecu, and on a blacktop it would be manic. have you got some dynosheets with rwHP perhaps bimbleuk? would be nice
to know the difference.
grtz Thomas
PS I know for very sure that RAW don't buy all their engines from fennsport.
[Edited on 25/8/06 by thomas4age]
If Lucas made guns, Wars wouldn't start either.
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bimbleuk
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| posted on 25/8/06 at 07:44 PM |
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The SUN dyno I use doesn't plot the WHP just the calculated BHP. This is the dyno both RAW and OMEX use for development work. On this dyno
silvertops typically show 142-147 BHP and blacktops make 147-153 BHP. Torque is similar at around 110-115 lbs ft for both engines. Below is an
mid-mappping plot (147BHP) and a comparison between inlet cam left advanced (faint line) and inlet cam retarded (dark line). On the dyno realtime
display mine makes around 125 WHP.
I supply kit and computer info to Fensport, OMEX and RAW which is why I've got some high spec gear on my car 
Image deleted by owner
Image deleted by owner
[Edited on 25/8/06 by bimbleuk]
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thomas4age
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| posted on 28/8/06 at 12:35 PM |
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Hey bimbleuk
SO you've got that dent at 3500rpm also in the silvertop, Do you perhaps know what causes that?
I've been playing around with timing and pusle width a bit and got it a Little better than your's show, but it's still there.
wheré-as the blacktop doesn't seem to suffer that.
Something head related? or to do with the fact that VVT is on so damn early
grtz Thomas
If Lucas made guns, Wars wouldn't start either.
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bimbleuk
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| posted on 29/8/06 at 06:08 AM |
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As you can see in the second plot the bump when the cam swithes was improved with further mapping. Are you retarding the cam at approx 7000RPM as you
will gain a few more horses at the top on both the silvertop and blacktop? The Toyota ECU does this as well.
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timmy
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| posted on 29/8/06 at 09:59 AM |
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Nice job.
What are you running as a load sensor? The silvertop normally runs an AFM for this, but you don't seem to have one. Something to do with the
lack of airbox etc...
Cheers,
Tim
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Mave
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| posted on 29/8/06 at 06:09 PM |
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Ha Thomas,
the engine bay looks amazing. Very well done. Ben bijna jaloers....
Does anyone know if anyone out there has ever tried to squeeze this 20V into the (front) engine compartment of a classic Mini (and has succeeded)???
Looks to me like a nice project now that my Seven is finished....
Cheers,
Marcel
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bimbleuk
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| posted on 29/8/06 at 08:36 PM |
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Timmy - On mine the car is mapped with a lamda sensor, throttle position and crank timing sensor. There are corrections made from water temp and air
temp. The lamda sensor isn't used on the road/track as I do so few miles.
I was at Mech Repairs today doing some PC upgrades. On the rollers was a RAW supplied 20V silvertop in a tiger kit car. Below is the power plot after
a mapping session. The power was OK for a silvertop but torque was above average with a strong bottom end compared to some. Peak was typical at aprox
7400RPM (blacktop peak at 7800RPM). The inlet cam wasn't retarded at the top due to a limitation in the fitted ECU so there were a few more
ponies to find.
 
Silvertop 20V power plot
Mave - The 4AGEs are very compact compared to more modern ally engines. So if you can fit a Rover K series for example then it should fit as well.
[Edited on 29/8/06 by bimbleuk]
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thomas4age
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| posted on 30/8/06 at 05:30 AM |
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Hey Bimbleuk, and all oofcourse.
What rpm are you switching the VVT on then?
Mines currently set to 2200rpm, If one was to switch at the end of the dip in torque ie at 4500 rpm, would the bump then dissapear? if so you are must
be loosing torque below 4500 rpm?
The omes 500 doens't facilitate switching off at high rpm, only on.
thanx for the compliments on the looks guy's
and Yes it'll fit a mini quite nicely.
grtz thomas
If Lucas made guns, Wars wouldn't start either.
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bimbleuk
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| posted on 30/8/06 at 10:20 AM |
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Thomas,
The VVT is switched at approx 4000RPM similar to the Toyota ECU. Then switched off again at 6800RPM.
Best thing you can do is try it on a rolling road unless you have access to a GPS/accelerometer data logger which can plot a power graph, the Veypour
or VR2 for example.
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impreziv
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| posted on 30/8/06 at 10:53 PM |
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hey, im a newbie here.
im planning a blacktop 20v locost build.
im wondering if you had to use the RWD 16v waterpump? or could you keep the FWD 20v one?
also, what did you do for the exhaust manifold? do you have a pic of the exhaust side? im hoping i dont have to do a custom header, but it looks
like the stock one doesnt go the right way.
i was originally planning to do an NA SR20DE, but a friend of mine convinced me to use a Toyota drivetrain
thanks for the pics, it helps alot just seeing how the engine sits in there.
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timmy
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| posted on 31/8/06 at 02:16 AM |
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I believe it is possible to use the RWD cooling system on a 20V, but it involves some modifications to the rear of the head. But I have heard that it
can lead to hot-spots at the back of the head.
Loads of clubmans here in Oz are using the 20V (mainly silvertops it seems) and nearly all that I've seen keep the existing water pump etc and
just run the hoses to the rear of the head from the radiator. A lot of plumbing is involved, but I think it would be more reliable....
Have a google for 20V RWD conversion and you should find some details of what's involved in changing the cooling system.
HTH,
Tim
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brycheiniog
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| posted on 31/8/06 at 08:13 AM |
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I too am thinking of replacing the xflow in my Fury with a 4age. I have a couple of dilemas though. I am not sure what gearbox to use. RAW sell a
bellhousing to let you use a type 9 with a 4AGE, but I have read in several places that a type 9 is not really up to 8500 RPM on a regular basis,
which means throwing money at BGH for a stronger box. I see that Thomas used a toyota T50 which is another option, but they do not seem very easy to
obtain in the UK, and I am not sure if they will fit in the fury transmission tunnel.
The second concern is the sump. I read somewhere that the normal chopped sump is not up to track work. Is this true? Is there a dry sump kit avalible,
or am I stuck with an accuump?
Cheers
Jonathan
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thomas4age
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| posted on 31/8/06 at 01:49 PM |
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Hey all,
You can just as easlily leave the cooling system the way it is standard, pipe routing can be made looking nice using alloy tubing.
You can however also use the Complete RWD waterpump, But the front timing cover cannot be fitted with this, unless you gring a few lines on it (not
hard to do)
you can fit a 16v waterpump to a 20v pumphousing but not the other way round. before fitting a previously use waterpump do yourself the following
favour. heat the pump up to +/- 80 degrees in hot water and check if the pumps impellor is firmly on the pumpaxle, mine wasn't and cost me a
week looking for airlocks and broken head gaskets before I took the pump off again because i couldn't find what was at fault
with a RWD pump on the 20v there's a small chance off getting hotspots in the head. depending on the rear cover modification. I wouldn't
do it if the stock system also fits.
over to gearboxes, 8500rpm is a little high for a T9 but then again You rarily touch that sort of RPM anyway (you need very big cams to get a 4age to
make any decent torque up there and you will shift before this, then again If you have a healthy gearbox it'll easily cope with it,
The T50 box is hard to get that's true, but it lighter than a T9 and will cope with probably all a NA 4age can throw at it.
The T50 will fit any Sylva chassis (exept mojo/riot offcourse duhhh) so it should probably fit any other 7 aswell because I haven't seen any
tunnel smaller than a strikers one, so no problem there.
an other + about the t50 is that when you find one it'll probably won't cost a fortune, a T9 doesn't cost anything but the RAW
bellhousing kit with everything on it isn't very cheap at all. that's the main reason I went T50 3 years ago.
You can shorten the sump aproximatly 3cm, quite easily and if it's widened and small baffle's are welded in where the widened part begins,
you'll won't experience problems on track. (I can take pictures of mine if you want to) offcourse you could fit an ex formula atlantic
dry-sump system but that's quite expensive
so that's it bassicly, shorten the sump about 3cm, keep cooling system stock, and if you can find one go T50.
another good option off going locost is to keep the stock computer on the 16v models (also on the 20v but the computers are non existend it seems) I
have all diagramms is colour over here and it's dead easy to get running + cheap as chips and really economy driving mine did 19km to a
liter.
grtz Thomas
ps a little movie from yesterday nights driving. I've got a flame shooting exhaust YES!!!
http://media.putfile.com/compilatie-striker-thomas
[Edited on 31/8/06 by thomas4age]
If Lucas made guns, Wars wouldn't start either.
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bimbleuk
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| posted on 1/9/06 at 09:02 AM |
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Plenty of pics in my archive of the engine bay and shortened sumps. The cast sump pictured is for sale if anyone wants to treat themselves but it
ain't cheap!
Not a lot wrong with the standard sump really apart from groud clearance. The Tiger I saw on the rollers had the 20V fitted 4 years previously and its
regularly used on track with a standard sump.
My baffled sump design......
 
Shortened sump
I use the standard water pump and water block as supplied with the 20V engine. Makes a very tidy installation in a kit car. I connect one of the
heater pipes to my header tank (the other is blocked). The other two connections go to the radiator. All connections connect to the water block on the
rear of the cylinder head. Here another picture.....
 
Original engine bay layout - side
I do have a BGH gearbox in mine but I may investigate using a T50 if its lighter.
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impreziv
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| posted on 3/9/06 at 02:15 AM |
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thanks alot for for answering my questions. that helps me out alot.
i have 2 more questions if you guys dont mind
- would it be just as easy to do one in a left-hand-drive setup? it looks like the left side of the enginebay is pretty tight, would the steering
rack make it past the exhaust manifold?
- do any of you guys, who have done 20V setups, have a picture or two of the engine mounts on the frame, before the engine got put in? im very
curious to see
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bimbleuk
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| posted on 3/9/06 at 04:12 AM |
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Heres a couple of pics of my engine mounts on a 16V engine if they're any use. These mounts are good for space as they are flat and lie right at
the bottom of the chassis. Probably not the strongest or lightest design though. Mount the starter on the other side, exit the primaries above the
chassis rails and maybe use a remote oil filter block then you should have plenty of room. Remember my chassis is a Striker which is narrower than a
typical Locost and also has the engine off set to the left hand side from the drivers point of view.
Image deleted by owner
Image deleted by owner
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