Hi
I have just bought a negleted but complete Alfa 164 3.0L 12v and have aquired a gearbox from an Alfa spider 2.0L

I have been told these will fit together and should provide a good power plant for a project.
I am cosidering a Luego velocity XT

has anyone any useful info?

Mmmmm beautiful engine!!

I'd check your box really does bolt up to the engine first! I'd be surprised if it does to be honest - thought the Alfa 6 was the only RWD gearbox option. Could be wrong of course, hopefully am.

On the plus side, you'll find the engine ECU loom comes out of the 164 with the engine, totally seperate to the rest of the car's wiring. Literally only a few wires to connect to get the engine running! So easy! Why oh why wasn't a rover 827 engine wired up that way??...

Well good luck,

Liam

I just found a website where a guy fitted a V6 in a spider and rekons the gearbox will fit "The engine is bolted directly to the stock Spider transmission"
Hope he's right.
Gave the engine dimensions to Luego and they think it should fit in a velocity OK.

Thanks for the info on the ECU, Im going to try running the engine pror to fitment .

Looks like the chap in America was wrong and as you thought the gearbox is no use.

Looks as if I may try mating a type 9 to the v6, will require a bit of planning and a a big hammer.

Anyone want an Alfa rearwheel drive gearbox, will fit alfa 1800 twin cam?

john

Check out this site: http://www.geocities.com/dax_super_stephan/

It's an Alfa V6 powered Dax Rush.

Marcel

I saw that site, the guy has used a Alfa 6 geabox (hens teeth).
Looks good though.

I think i may be able to use the bell housing from the 164 and grind and cut off the diff unit, space out (38mm) and add a conversion plate at the rear of the bell housing, this can be machined to suit a type nine. that only leaves the spiggot bearing, friction plate and clutch operation to worry about- !!!!.

Got to be worth it to use the V6, only paid £40 for the whole car!

speak to whats his name whos put the alfa v6 in his gemini, he made a bellhousing to fit a type 9 box and has plenty of ideas.

can't remember his username though, but a search for jaffa cakes should bring him up

Ned.

Trevborg?

thats the man, thanks gazza.

Ned.

What about the older Alfa 75 or GTV6 2.5 gearbox?

??

http://motors.search.ebay.co.uk/alfa-75_Cars_W0QQcatrefZC12QQfromZR40QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQsacatZ9801

[Edited on 6/10/05 by G.Man]

Both the GTV and the 75 and 155 had the clutch and the gearbox in the rear transaxle, provided better balance but only a prop shaft ran from the engine.

There are only a few Alfas with traditional rear wheel drive system.

Spider (65-93)
Alfa 6
Giulia
Bertone and
Berlina

Almost all are pre 80s

Home engineering looks the only way!!!

I have a Velocity XT and am looking for a cheap way of getting as much HP in the engine bay as possible. If you can use the wiring from the original car then does that mean you only need to fabricate the gearbox bell housing and the exhaust? If the whole engine only cost £40 then it makes for a cheap solution. How much HP does the Alfa V6 have?

The Alfa 3.0l V6 12v has approx 190 BHP
And lots of torque, the block and head are both alloy ( approx 130kg) and is often seen as one of the best engines ever produced.
There was also a 2.5 v6 almost identicle just different bore so most parts are iter- changeable.

I would have to alter the sump as it may be too deep for the Velocity, but a sump from the 2.5, as used on the Alfa 75 may be ok

Just bought another Alfa 164 for £100, but i think the big ends may need attention as the oil pressure is low.

These cars are being thrown away, my brother runs a 164 3.0L 24v (230 bhp)
A seriously quick car(150mph) and it weighs 1500kgs. So in a locost it is serious power with reliability and a totaly unstressed engine.
The clutch and bell housing are the only snags i have found so far.

Apart from 12 valves and 40BHP, what is the difference between the 12 & 24V engines?
Do they still have simple wiring?
Are they the same size?
Do the weigh the same?

The 24 V has bigger heads and the electrics could be a head ache. became a complicated engine when they installed 12 extra valves. The output varied between 210 and 230 bhp depending on the model. But i think the 12v would be a squeeze in a velocity so maybe the 24v is asking a bit much.
The weight may be a little more but not much.
I will let you jnow how i get on with the bellhousing problem.

I'd expect the ecu in the 24V is still seperate like it is in the 12V but I can't say for sure. It was a little while ago we did it, but it was a piece of cake to get the engine running sitting on it's subframe in the garage (ready to be shoe-horned into the back of a fiat cinquecento ). You're left with the ecu plugged into the engine and one big connector. You just have to find which pin is the starter solonoid and power to the engine relays and connect a fuel pump up. Then off she goes!! I imagine 24V is very similar.

Liam

did it get into the back of the fiat? Any pics? What was it used for? We did a similar thing with a Nova for rallying, but not a v6!

Nice choice of engine

if you want any ideas, measurements, piccys, or anything to help with your conversion, just e-mail me.

The Gemini should be in PCC this month i think with details of the conversion.link to pcc forum

Spoke to a guy who used to race mazda rotary engined cars, an engineer to trade but now retired. Reckons if i give him the ford bellhousing and the Alfa bellhousing he will convert it no problem and he will machine a spiggot bush to suit the crankshaft. He says that phospher bronze is the way to go for the spiggot as needle bearings have very little tolerance and will burn and seize if the gearbox is subjected to high torque.
Used to race a 1300cc nomal asp Rotary with 390 bhp. red line 16000 revs

Sounds like fun!!

Well, I am off to Luego today to collect some bits and pieces and intend to talk to them about the feasibility of this; I am very excited about a V6 Alfa engine in the Velocity. Assuming they don't dampen my spirits too much I'll be looking for a gearbox conversion pretty soon so would you suggest to your man that he could have more than one customer. Would it still be for a cable based clutch operation? Where in the UK is this chap?

Cheers

I live in the North East of Scotland (Aberdeenshire), so its quite a distance. I am going to see the chap in about 10 days time to deliver the bellhousings and see whats feasible. he reckons it could cost about £300 max but until he sees it he cant say.
He is also retired so how much work he wants i dont know but i can certainly ask.

the Alfa operates a hydraulic clutch, and hopefully i will keep that.

I will let you know my progress.

I would be cautious of an engineer who says needle bearings don't like torque!!

And check steering column doesn't tangle your exhaust fannymould.

I think he mentioned that because he used them before and found that with tolerence required for a spiggot, if you were even a couple of tho out with the shaft alignment it squezzed the oil form the bearings on one side and could lead to burning. especially with high power output engines as they try to lift the primary shaft in the gearbox when you put your foot down.

Then again maybe i'm to trusting of retired engineers.

Have to wait and see.

The exhaust will be an adventure all of its own.

If the mainshaft is not bang-on in-line, the 'box will want to jump out of gear. And don't forget, the spigot bearing is only turning when you have the clutch pressed.
Like Trev Borg said, if you need any dimentions, piccies, solutions etc, feel free to get in touch.

If the first motion shaft is not cental with the bell housing/spigot bearing the first thing likely to break is the clutch center plate. Found out the hard way one winters night a few years ago when the car I was driving broke down. No signs of jumping out of gear or noises . later found out the bell housing had cracked due to severe clutch judder, bell housing had been welded but not aligned.Hope ypu get it sorted, lovely engine when running nice.

quote:

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Originally posted by NS Dev
did it get into the back of the fiat? Any pics? What was it used for? We did a similar thing with a Nova for rallying, but not a v6!

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Rescued attachment 2005_0123_160116AA.JPG

quote:

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Originally posted by Liam

quote:

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Originally posted by NS Dev
did it get into the back of the fiat? Any pics? What was it used for? We did a similar thing with a Nova for rallying, but not a v6!

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It's like the 164 subframe was designed to fit in a cinquecento!! The front member of the subframe butts right up to a structural member in the cinq floor, and the back of the 164 frame just fits inside the rear bumper of the cinq. 164 struts just fit inside the cinq bodywork, just underneath the rear windows. Wheel arches will need to be about 6" wider each side!

Being built as a super cheap track beast, but project cinq is on hold as my mate is in new zealand. Subframe is mounted in the cinq and waiting for some tubular structure to be added (as there is no structure at all in the back of a cinq!) This rear structure will flow into a full cage.

Unfortunately not got any decent pics. I might need my engine crane soon for the locost so i'll pop down the cinq garage and get it and take some photos.

Liam

Afraid this is the best pic i've got at the mo!!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Johnmor
Both the GTV and the 75 and 155 had the clutch and the gearbox in the rear transaxle, provided better balance but only a prop shaft ran from the engine.

There are only a few Alfas with traditional rear wheel drive system.

Spider (65-93)
Alfa 6
Giulia
Bertone and
Berlina

Almost all are pre 80s

Home engineering looks the only way!!!

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Job done!!

WELL DONE

looks good, very neat for the tranmission tunnell.
Can you run the engine on the bench or will you wait untill it in the car?

Nice

I don't know about nice!!!!!!

It looks like you bolted the gearbox to the engine with an old biscuit tin.

I have built a stand to bench run the engine but as I am still waiting for an exclusive, hand crafted, one-off, special tuning wiring loom, the engine/'box has found its way into the car. i just need to cobble some engine mounts, extend the reversed air plenum runners and wait for the loom........

And reinforce the biccy tin with Muller Fruit Corner tubs.

Ok

point taken

I will have the loom at house by tonight hopefully. All labled up to avoid colour blind freaks getting them wrong

And the engine crane if i can arsed

I was expecting a wiring loom and an engine crane but someone has dumped some scrap and a pile of wires in my yard!!!( Cheers matey)
I might even have a run out of it before too long ('Lil legs permitting!)

And it does run!!!

Do you have the dimensions and weight of the Alfa V6?

1) Length from pulley to flywheel
2) Width
3) Height sump to highest point
4) Height bottom of block to highest point
5) Weight as removed from donor

Anything that pokes outside these dimensions? Headrers? Dizzy?

Can add to my list for reference - not many Alfas sold down here, but useful to compare to the Jap alloy V6's (Mitsi FTO, Mazda MX6, etc)

Search for thread "V6 dimensions"

The sump very much depends on the car that it is removed from. Rear wheel drive sump is not as deep as front wheel drive versions.

How is Auckland, worked at the building of the TVNZ HQ near Nelson St in1988, had a bal.!!

quote:

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Originally posted by Johnmor
How is Auckland, worked at the building of the TVNZ HQ near Nelson St in1988, had a bal.!!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Johnmor
Search for thread "V6 dimensions"

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The Alfa is a 60 degree V6 , most are 90, so that makes it a little taller and less wide, but the stoke is vey short which means it revs well(24v goes to 7300 easy). I would think an Alfa v6 would be a rare comodity in NZ, i know things have changed but when I was there you would have needed a mortgage for a car like that.
Over here they get thrown away. the big problem is attaching a gearbox, the only option realy is to fabricate some form of conversion plate and use a FWD bellhousing. Or make your own Bellhousing.

Post some pics of the sunmmer weather and your car to cheer us all up.