Continuing with my 'I know naff about cars or engines but I am going to build anyway' kit car build. This is going to be my engine strip down and rebuild thread.

All advice on the below is very very welcome and absolutely essential because without you guys I wouldn't be able to do this.

As my previous thread states there is oddness in the bores of my 3.5lr Rover V8 having twirled a cable tie down there and pulling out brown goo.

Heres the strip down.

This first image is of the complete engine - I know you all know what it looks like but I am telling a story.


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First thing I did was to pull the drain plug and my oh my a gallon of water poured out followed my mud coloured oil. Poured out for ages.


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Even I know that this is bad. Next the filter, more water



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With the Offen and the Holley off, that left the valley gasket to come off. It didn't want to come off but I mostly saved if for reference at a later date.
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The rods, cam and followers look in brilliant condidtion, new in fact. I was completely shocked by this. It looks like its hardly been used. Also notice the thick ribbing in the valley going from one side to another. The very early 3.5 engines had thin ribbing according to my books.

After taking the valve train off in one piece and keeping everything in good order it was time for the heads. Sigh.


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There is caked water and rust in there, the walls of the bores are corroded to hell, its full of goo and sludge. There is no sign of a gasket leak anywhere though or signs of overheats. Also no ridges on the good bores, no signs of wear.

The underside of the heads look kinda okay though. They look rusted in the photo but its just stained. They would clean up I think. But I am not a expert.


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The followers came out as easy as wink and they are barely marked let alone worn. The cam looks to be the same.

Its getting late now so I decided to finish my evening with the joy of removing the sump




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Please can you guys advise me what to do with this. I have another 3.5 lr V8 that is also of unknown quality. Could these seemingly good condition parts be used on that, or is that a bad idea. What are my options on this block? Please give me your thoughts.

Thanks for the replies in advance

[Edited on 12/2/10 by Irony]

You need to find out where the water was getting into the oil before you carry on id say

not cool

I've no personal experience of these engines but for the money they can be picked up for I think you need to be looking for another one, & indeed you have another to play with!
The rust will have played havoc with the piston rings & bores & the water is everywhere, if it had just stood outside & got water in then it would be in the ports, bores & sump. Water in the oil filter suggests it has been run with water in or been so full of water that it's just got everywhere. Neither is good!
I've stripped, cleaned & reassembled an engine in similar condition bore-wise & made it run having fitted no new parts apart from one oil control ring (snapped it trying to free it) & manifold gaskets but it was a real minimum spent & there were no alternative engines available.

Ok, before you forget, mark were each lifter, pushrod, and rocker came from.
Same with the pistons and rods, keep them together until you start machining the block. Make sure you mark each rod and cap by number (best to use a number punch) Same thing with the main caps.
Now clean the block, have a machine shop check the bores to see if they can safely be bored for larger pistons.
If the bores can be saved, next line bore the main bearings and have the rods checked for straight.
These engines were the first Ali American engines so they were over built.
The crank main caps and connecting rods need to go back were they came from.

With the amount of water in the engine I would replace the pistons, cam and lifters. American cams come in kits that way, old lifters on new came will destroy it, same for old cam new lifters.
As far as the water, have the machine shop check the surface of the block and heads for warpage, if it's minimal a light resurfaceing of both items will bring them back and you pick up a little compression.
Last, when you mill the heads or block of a V8 you also need to take an amount of metal off the intake manifold so it will sit back in the valley.
Sorry this is being so long, but you asked.

whne you say muddy, do you really mean muddy or just brown coloured?

put that lovely sludge in the sump between your fingers - can you feel any grit?

muddy would mean the engine was in an offroader, e.g. land rover but I suspect the latter and would guess that it was stood outside.

are the bores pitted or just surface rust?

also look at journals on crank and camshaft lobes - same question there.

pitted means recon - look into that but as ^^^, 3.5 v8 are two a penny.

remember cost will be 2x since you have 2x cylinders.

check out paddocks and craddocks (land rover spares) for cheap v8 parts.
note that cheap in this case can me cheap and nasty too.

also rimmer bothers for v8 spares.

you will learn from the taking apart plus you look like you have usuable followers so it hasn't been a waste of time.

[Edited on 12/2/10 by 02GF74]

that looks like scrap to me - you could probably get it going but it will cost loads more than another good second hand engine.

cheers

Mark

The bores look totally shagged to be honest - well at least one of them is.

Like people said above - looks like a rebore but I shall have to look into costs. Second hand V8's are quite cheap, I shall have to get some prices as well.

It could have been left outside and water got in through the valves that were open

60 squid for one in our scrappy next door, but you have to remove it yourself...

Atm, i would get another engine and keep this as a project.

Me thinks as a B-turbo conversion with bike carbs

quote:

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Originally posted by l0rd
Atm, i would get another engine and keep this as a project.

Me thinks as a B-turbo conversion with bike carbs

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Use that one for spares and get another.

The cams and followers are usually the worst bits, so still useful for spares as yours look good in the pics

In terms of keeping the bits together.....if you use the followers and cam in another engine, get yourself a nice flat pieece of glass, stick some 800 grit wet and dry paper to it with WD40 and carefully linish the faces of the followers to remove any marks and leave an even finish, then it doesn't matter which cam lobe they go on, they are effectively new.

I would take it off your hands and just use the block and pistons.......giving all the rest of the parts.....mmmmm Table

Get another engine without a doubt - BUT don't bin this one, I always like to have a spare engine on hand if I'm building one because you have double the number of parts to choose from for one thing!

Take this one apart, learn how everything fits together (and discover all the awkward bits you might break when it actually matters!) - clean everything up and the next one will be a breeze, you'll have loads of spares and much more experience - simples

yep, take it all apart, but it all back together (without buying any new bearings etc for it) and if you don't have any spare bits left over, you've done a good job

I forgot something, on the back of GM engines just above the rear cam bearing there are two welch plugs (like the ones on the side of the block but smaller) these are the oil galleries for the lifter lubrication, pop them out and use a rifle bore brush to get the gunk out.
Normally when we rebuild cast iron engines we soak them in a caustic soda hot bath for a day then clean with water pressure and compressed air, you can't do that with and Ali block.

I downloaded this for my use.
Moderators, please remove if against copyrights....
(It has the source at the bottomm of each page.
HTH.
AA

My first thoughts looking at it are ...

its been outside for a long time and water has enetered via the holly carb which wa left open. then down the inlet manifold into the bores and then dripped down into the sump, almost looks like limescale has formed as its dripped down over a period of time.

Valley and followers look clean so V good

strip ( label) clean and examine it. At least you will learn how to rebuild one. Between this and another engine you will have a good one.

Dont write this one of yet. RV8 will take a lot. If the block has not cracked the bores may clean up with a rub and hone. - every thing else including the heads will clean.

Paul

If you dont have a RV8 workshop manual I can post one on disc.

ps this was mine at the start - now 180BHP at wheels with 200BHP planned for this year.
Rescued attachment engine 019.jpg

I am not writing it off just yet, at the very very least its a great learning process for me. I am bagging, writing notes, taking photos etc etc as I go along.

I would agree with the theory about it being left in the weather except for the water in the oil pump and the fact that a lot of horrible creamy oil came out. Like it's been whisked up, like mayo. Does water oil combo do that if left standing. I will see some sort of damage if it has been driven into water I think. Tonight and tomorrow morning will tell.

Thanks for the offer of the Manuals but I think I have them all. I have all the workshop and overhaul manuals and a couple of boxwrench DVD's which are awesome.

If the engine has been turned over by hand then the water will end up in the filter ect. any movement will have mixed the oil and water.



If it ran with water in then there will be totally worn bearings and the followres cam will be badly worn which they dont look. Rocker shafts would also be badly worn.


edit

mine had worn main bearings any way, nice shiny copper colour coming through.

[Edited on 12/2/10 by Paul (Notts)]

Continuing with the strip down. Here are some updated pics of how far I have gotten over the weekend. Things look a lot pleasanter since I have gotten rid of all the goo and muck.

I did however notice a worrying crack on one of the pistons. Well it might not be a crack just a score on the piston top.


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See the worrying crack/score marked by the red arrow.

The one bore is quite badly covered in surfaced rust and I am not sure what to do about it at the moment. However my brother is visiting this week and he knows engines inside out blindfolded so hopefully he'll be able to inspect it first hand.

As always advice greatly appreciated!

Before you get too far down the road with that engine whats the block reference and whats the CR stamped on it? its a particularly odd looking block casting.

Personally - bin it start with at least a 3.9

Andrew

its 9.35:1 can't remember the engine number but its some thing like 17D0000000B

80's 3.5 - Cut your losses now - have a play and consider it a learning tool but a running 3.9 from 95ish will set you back no more than the gaskets etc. on that 3.5 and is a far better proposition and provide more power by CC and better heads.

The Holley if a list 8007 is a good enough carb and the Offy's are ok as long as its not revving.

It may well clean up OK but gaskets bearings rings hone etc are all going to add up and you would be better off spending it on a bigger engine to start with.

Andrew

Totally stripped that block out now and I am worried about the condition of one of the bores. It is mildly pitted from the rust which is in my opinion a crying shame. I don’t know if a hone will solve this or not. I popped into Northern Road Engineering over the weekend (they are the daddies around here for engine work, recommended by three different people). They said just take the block in and they will have a look. Honing costs £10 a bore and pressure testing cost £50. If it just needs honing then brilliant but if its beyond that and needs a rebore then I shall have to have new pistons. A set of +20 thou pistons are £193. Is it possible to just replace one piston with a +20 thou piston or will that throw the whole thing out of balance? If I have new pistons then I am sure that there will be a cost to have them pressed onto the conrods which is more £££££££££££.
So I am looking at best
Hone - £80
Pressure Test - £50
New Rings
New Bearings
Job done!

At Worst
Rebored – Unknown but it has to be double at least the hone cost £160
New Pistons - £193
New Rings
New Bearings
Pistons pressed onto conrods
I am thinking that if the block needs a rebore then it just won’t be worth it as I might as well wait for a another engine of okay condition to come along secondhand. I have seen 3.5 – 3.9 litre varients of good condition going for less than £500 quid on the bay. People on here are recomending ditching the 3.5 for a more modern 3.9. It seems to me that the 3.9’s have more problems than the 3.5’s. Mostly to do with the engines being bored to a greater diameter. Cracking behind the liners and liner slip seem to be common.
Any advice on the above would be read eagerly!!!!!!

You willl either get away with a hone and new piston rings, or it will need a full rebore and new pistons.

You need to get the bores measured to see how worn they are. Usually they wear oval. and about 5thou difference across the two sides of the oval is max before a rebore.

The Engineering firm will have an inside micrometer to measure the bores.

Dont do any machining work untill you have measured it up. You would just be throwing away good money.

Its doesnt look that bad, but not that good either!
It depends on how deep the pitting is on the bores, and whether a hone can get it out. If not its a rebore and expense.

Also take the crank in and get them to measure that as well.
A crank re-grind will cost a few bob as well.
Measuring costs next to nothing.
You need to know if what you have is any good as it is, or if it needs work (read Expense)

I would also strip the other block, or at least whip the heads off, and look at the bores.
Take the sump off and then a big end and mains caps and take a peek at the crank journals. ie are they badly scored, nice and smooth etc. Then if it looks OK get it measured up to see if its worn.

3.5 cranks are pretty good, and unless its been run into the ground, you could be oK.

I had two cranks both were good, and I only needed a polish on the journals to make it like new again. Put in New shells (bearings) regardless as they are not that expensive, and worht doing when you have it stripped and on the bench.


The 3.9's had problems with water leaks, so be very careful of them. ie choose wisely, and walk away from anything boubtful. There are plenty of RV8's out there to choose from.

To be honest, you will get very good performance out of a 3.5 in a kit. Its only about 6kg heavier that a Ford Pinto engine, and gives 150Bhp or more depending.
I have a Heavier Luego Viento, and with a 3.5 RV8, a webber 500 (4 barrel carb) and a Viper Hurricane cam. it does 0-60 in 5 sec flat.
Its just under 200Bhp.
Thats Aston Martin territory. ie plenty quick enough.
If you want 3 secs 0-60, then forget the RV8 and stick a turbo'd bike ingine in. Not much else will get those sorts of time without spending MegaBucks. Even a turbo'd BEC isnt cheap.

They are good reliable engines.

Also check out the Exhaust / Manifolds. If you want nice tubular pilished stainless ones, they will cost you a fair bit.
Hopwever you can aways start with stock manifolds and upgrade later.

Oohh finally... when you decide which block you are going to use, have the engineering company chemically clean it. Its worth it.
You dont want it made like new, then have all the crud come out of the oilways and ruin your nice new bearing surfaces. Its false economy not to have it cleaned properly. Yeah... I know... More expense!

4.2

4.6

Back to my original suggestion and bin it, I'm afraid

ATB

Simon

quote:

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Originally posted by Simon
4.2

4.6

Back to my original suggestion and bin it, I'm afraid

ATB

Simon

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Just got back from Northroad Enigineering in Newark and I must admit they couldn't have been more helpful.

The fella came out and said 'Great engine blocks these'. Then he looked into the bores and said 'thats f*&ked that is mate, I'd have to take 40 thou to get that out'.

So on to plan B with my other engine block. He said some interesting things about Rover V8s though. He said that if I am looking round for a second hand one then a Defender V8 is the best option has they had brilliant heads that will give you and extra 20bhp due to the larger ports. He also if I have to look round for another block then a 3.9 or a 4.0 is a huge no no. He said they are a complete nightmare!!!

Now I shall be stripping my second engine block to see what lurks inside.

Above is a image that I took of the original V8 that I have since diagnosed as a duffer. | might keep it as I can't conceive its worth much to anyone. I am a exhibition designer and builder by profession so I can probably make it into a coffee table easy and ebay it. Got enough to do at the moment through

Last night I tried to move the V8 thats been sat outside for 6 months (wrapped under several layers of polythene) but I couldn't shift the dratted thing. I proceeded to take bits off it to make it more manageable. Then it started to snow and when I did get the manifold and gearbox off I was thoroughly cold.




It was just a little bleak.

Dragged the second engine inside tonight with the help of my lodger (cheers Rich) and proceeded to whip the heads off to have a look whats inside.




One of the bore is just plain full of water and is rusted through. I think the engine has been sat outside for a couple of years uncovered.

I must admit I am pretty cheesed off to find both the engines are basically scrap. Well unless I want a 40 thou re-bore. I guess this is one of those moments you all warned me about about where you just down tools and leave it for a few days.

I still have lots of motivation for the build but I am going to take a couple of days off after this little row a disapointments.

Any got a reasonable condition RV8 they want rid of?


[Edited on 24/2/10 by Irony]

[Edited on 24/2/10 by Irony]

That sucks. RV8s are really cheap now and incredibly popular.

Sadly outside is no place to store an engine unless its in a car. They need to be stored inside with all the orifices blocked off. Ideally having had some squirts of oil down the plug holes and turned over a couple of times tp spread it about.

[Edited on 24/2/10 by flak monkey]

i also give hte engine a turn every few months and occasionally add a little wd40 into the bores via inlet or the next time exhaust.

Smokes a little on start up as the wd40 burns off - but it keeps the bores in ok condition.

That bloke reccomended the Defender V8.

Thats fine, but most of the Land Rover (defender) engines are Low Compression to give more torque and to run on poor quality petrol in 3rd world countries etc.
You want a high compression engine, out of a Range Rover. Or better Still a Late Rover SDi or a Vitesse. TVR engines (also RV8's) fetch silly money, but are tuned up a bit compared to the std Rover offering.
You can check the compression, as its usually by the engine number halfway along the top face of the block.
Thats assuming its not had different pistons fitted or a rebore etc.
Just a thought.

I have a spare RV8 in bits in the shed. ideally could do with a rebore, as its on the ovality limit.
Keep all the bits you have, as you can choose the best bit to fit to your final buiild.

You can check the Engine numbers on the Capriracing website, so you can see what the engine was originally built for.

http://www.capriracing.co.uk/RoverV8EngineNumbers.htm

Hope that helps.

My advice would be to buy a book on Rv8s - it'll only cost you 15 quid, then you'll know exactly what to look for.

I have the Des Hammil book. Full of good info but mildly tedious

Does anyone know any good places to buy engines from??????????? I am searching ebay but more options would be great

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Range-rover-v8-3-9-efi-engine-good-condition_W0QQitemZ300401994167QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item 45f15aa9b7

this any good?

you could try posting a wanted ad on here?

http://www.v8forum.co.uk/forum/index.php

[Edited on 4/3/10 by swanny]

Having spent loads of time and money rebuilding a V8- best thing you can do is scrap this one and spend up to £1k on a nice one from a rangie- you will spend more doing this yourself. Find a nice 3.9 with all the bits and a box.

Is it time to unsticky this thread as it's not going anywhere?

roomate had a "defender' Bought it new.. UTTER crap is the only honest descriptor.
'Kng engine was just Junk.. blew it's head gasket twice.
No sane person should ever drive in a machine powered by one let alone own one.

Thankyou for all the comments. I have a new short block now and its in the car. I have asked for this thread to be unstickied.

If you want to stay with the RV8, Look for a earlier 3.9, not the cross bolted block, as they do have issues with liner shift, the 3.9 is a good engine, not particularly high on the comp 8.2:1 I think, personally I would run the later foam coated inlet manifold, all the stuff will interchange from your old engine, other than pistons, (different bore)
The 4.0 and the 4.6 use a bigger journal crank and will not fit the earlier block without major mods, there were some intermediate engines that used the X Bolt block, used the small journal crank but later crank driven oil pump, normally the block is not fitted with the cross bolts. Unlike the later X Bolt engine which were coilpack wasted spark engines.