Board logo

picasso diesel just too slow
Vmax1974 - 12/10/16 at 10:31 PM

I have (maybe the worlds worst) picasso 2.0 hdi that is in dire need of some care

I have had the car for coming up 2 years and done 45000 miles in that time anyway since the last owner only used the car for popping to the shops and back

So the problem i have is the car
has become painfully slow and i have to drop down to 2nd or 3rd to get it up even a small hill

I assumed that it was the egr valve so i disconnected it and it made a little difference for about 6 months but now its just too slow

I am assuming that there is a build up of crud stopping the turbo from doing its thing but i wonder is there an easy fix for this cause i can't crawl about on the floor too much cause i have a bad back now the engine needs a new front crank oil seal so may do that at the same time

coozer - 12/10/16 at 10:38 PM

Take it too Dreamworx at Thirsk .. Search on FB...

Mine was slow and now it does go go go.... Plus the mpg has gone up 20%

Vmax1974 - 12/10/16 at 11:12 PM

I would say its got about 30bhp left i get left by my brothers very standard austin a35

List of jobs is it needs a tensioner idler pulley, crankshaft front seal, decoke of turbo, drop link, ....... another car may be less hassle but funds dont allow that so mend and make do it is

owelly - 13/10/16 at 04:46 AM

Can you pull off a turbo hose and see if it makes any difference and see if it's making any boost? All the brakes free to turn? Carpet curled-up under the gas pedal?!

britishtrident - 13/10/16 at 05:55 AM

If the engine has a MAF it sounds very much like a MAF issue, many MAFs can be tested by simply disconnecting them but some can't it depends on the fall back strategy of the ECU.

You could try cleaning the MAF with carb cleaner.

[Edited on 13/10/16 by britishtrident]

Irony - 13/10/16 at 06:41 AM

My 2.0hdi engined cmax is a bugger for maf sensors. Yours might have the same engine. It starts slowly getting slower and starts getting a really smelly exhaust. It also bogs down unexpectedly. I think mine is on its 5th sensor. It has some issue were it munches them. You can get used ones on the bay of E.

britishtrident - 13/10/16 at 07:30 AM

Ebay is a place I would be very wary of buying a MAF sensor from, for example a MAF from a Corsa looks exactly the same as the MAF froma Mercedes but the calibration is completely different. There are also a huge number of Chinese knock-offs and old sensors cleaned up and put in a new box floating around on eBay. As for secondhand sensors the odds of buying a good one are pretty low.

There are different designs of MAF sensor element and how the signal is transmitted to the ECU can be as 0-5v signal or as the duty cycle of a square wave. The working part of the sensing element can be either a tiny coil of resisstance wire or a blade coated with a semi-conductor material. The sensing element becomes contaminated with oil, dirt and quite often dead insects, any change to the induction system such as moving the airfilter air inlet or fitting a K&N airfilter can throw the sensor calibration out or contaminate the sensing element.

Wire sensing elements can quite often be cleaned but cleaning the semi-conductor type generally isn't so successful.

[Edited on 13/10/16 by britishtrident]

Vmax1974 - 13/10/16 at 07:31 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Irony
My 2.0hdi engined cmax is a bugger for maf sensors. Yours might have the same engine. It starts slowly getting slower and starts getting a really smelly exhaust. It also bogs down unexpectedly. I think mine is on its 5th sensor. It has some issue were it munches them. You can get used ones on the bay of E.


Used MAF ordered see if that makes a difference

nick205 - 13/10/16 at 08:14 AM

I had a 306 2.0 HDI some years back, good little car, but not overly fast I have to say. Replaced with an (older) 7 seat Alhambra when we went from 1 to 3 children overnight!

From personal experience with that and VAG TDIs clogged diesel filters are very often the issue. They're rarely changed during a garage service and for the low £ and ease of change they're well worth doing. Even VAG genuine filters are not expensive and have taken me less than 1/2 to change. Some diesel engines self-prime the filter, but others benefit from the new filter being filled with fresh diesel to avoid getting air in the system (engine won't usually start with air in the system).


ETA...while you're under the bonnet check the air filter too. If it's past it's best and strangling the engine of air you'll be going slow!

ETA2...both of the above will see an increase in MPG too as the engine will be working better.

[Edited on 13/10/16 by nick205]

[Edited on 13/10/16 by nick205]

Irony - 13/10/16 at 08:52 AM

quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
Ebay is a place I would be very wary of buying a MAF sensor from, for example a MAF from a Corsa looks exactly the same as the MAF froma Mercedes but the calibration is completely different. There are also a huge number of Chinese knock-offs and old sensors cleaned up and put in a new box floating around on eBay. As for secondhand sensors the odds of buying a good one are pretty low.

There are different designs of MAF sensor element and how the signal is transmitted to the ECU can be as 0-5v signal or as the duty cycle of a square wave. The working part of the sensing element can be either a tiny coil of resisstance wire or a blade coated with a semi-conductor material. The sensing element becomes contaminated with oil, dirt and quite often dead insects, any change to the induction system such as moving the airfilter air inlet or fitting a K&N airfilter can throw the sensor calibration out or contaminate the sensing element.

Wire sensing elements can quite often be cleaned but cleaning the semi-conductor type generally isn't so successful.

[Edited on 13/10/16 by britishtrident]


I have bought 5 MAF sensors from eBay and 1 from a main dealer. I have made sure the part numbers are identical and on visual inspection they have looked identical. Never had a problem at all and they have revived my 2.0HDI instantly. Admittedly they only last 8-12 months but as new ones from Ford seem to last the same amount of time it doesn't matter.

I have tried to clean them with carb cleaner and electrical contact cleaner with zero luck.

The 2.0HDI engine in my Ford Cmax seems to be the same as the 2.0HDI in Peugeots. The Peugeot MAF sensor is identical but half the price used.

I don't know why my car munches them so quick but I think the engine has been tinkered with prior to my ownership. It is really far to quick for a baby hauler. I'd happily swap 20% power for 20% better economy.

nick205 - 13/10/16 at 09:12 AM

Interesting, I wasn't aware that the PSA HDI diesel engine was manufactured by and used in quite such a range of vehicles. I knew Peugeot and Citroen were both PSA, but didn't realise it was in Ford and BMW Mini cars...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSA_HDi_engine

MikeR - 13/10/16 at 11:18 AM

As we're talking about the engine ....

I've got an smax with the 2.0 tdci (140bhp) and i've got two questions.

1) has anyone changed the belts? Garage (citroen / peugeot specialist) seems a bit surprised i'm asking about changing them but ford says 125k or 10 years. I'm on 123.5k.

2) i get a weird pulse most but not all of the time on hard acceleration in 4, 5 or 6th. Its like 1 second full power, 1 second 70% power, 1 second full power etc etc. Its had this for a couple of years. Seems ok the day after a service.

Any ideas? Garage suggestes replacing the EGR as a guess but isn't sure and I don't want to spend 300 quid on a part + fitting for a guess on a car thats not worth that much.

SJ - 13/10/16 at 02:45 PM

MikeR, I have a Mondeo with the same engine and mine is exactly the same in respect of the 'pulsing' you describe. I've had it since 19k miles and it has never changed.

Mine also seems to slip it's clutch a bit when accelerating hard in high gears, which I though was a major clutch problem or DMF on its way out. it started doing this 40k miles ago and hasn't changed, but I was wondering if the pulsing was the clutch slipping very slightly and the ECU cutting power when it detects slip.

As I said mine has had the pulsing thing as long as I have had it even when I couldn't detect any clutch slip.

steve m - 13/10/16 at 03:57 PM

I also have the 2.0 Tdci in my Mondeo, and Ford said that the cambelt was to be changed at 80k miles, that is 128 Km

but I do not seem to be getting the pulsing effect, however I only buy brand diesel, and no supermarket shyte has ever been in my car, since ive owned it, also from 19k

I use cataclean at least once a year and wonder what the emmisions are showing on the OP's car, as it could be really clogged up if only doing shortish runs, perhaps the Itallion tune up is required

I also have disabled the DPF and have a blanking plate installed,

steve

SJ - 13/10/16 at 04:11 PM

quote:

I also have the 2.0 Tdci in my Mondeo, and Ford said that the cambelt was to be changed at 80k miles, that is 128 Km

but I do not seem to be getting the pulsing effect, however I only buy brand diesel, and no supermarket shyte has ever been in my car, since ive owned it, also from 19k

I use cataclean at least once a year and wonder what the emmisions are showing on the OP's car, as it could be really clogged up if only doing shortish runs, perhaps the Itallion tune up is required

I also have disabled the DPF and have a blanking plate installed,

steve


I do use the supermarket fuel so guess it could be that. My service book says 125k miles for the cambelt. I was planning to do mine around 100k.

britishtrident - 13/10/16 at 04:19 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Irony
I don't know why my car munches them so quick but I think the engine has been tinkered with prior to my ownership. It is really far to quick for a baby hauler. I'd happily swap 20% power for 20% better economy.


Diesels' require a different driving technique for good economy on a diesel the loud pedal is essentially a fuel tap, the engine always draws a full cylinder of air (ok not really) and compresses it into the combustion volume.

In spark ignition engines the loud pedal is an air valve the carb or injection add fuel to match the ammount of air drawn in. Because on a spark ignition the air is throttled at lower throttle openings it is in effect compressing less air into the combustion chamber volume. In effect the petrol engines have much a lower compression ratio at low throttle openings than they do at full throttle.

will121 - 13/10/16 at 05:58 PM

CAT or DPF blocked if it has one?

britishtrident - 13/10/16 at 07:34 PM

Always do what tests you are able or equiped to to before loading the parts cannon, in the case of a turbo diesel for a performance issue the first steps are visual inspection of the turbo hoses and if it has a MAF try running with the MAF electrical connecter unplugged. Pulling the plug on the MAF as test method will not work on all engines (for example Mercedes diesels) but on many engine types if the car runs better with the MAF disconnected then you have a definitive diagnosis.

Post 2004 diesel cars should in theory be fully EOBDcompliant so live data and fault codes should be available, however Fench manufacturers cars don't tend to be very co-operative in what diagnostic data is availble via generic scan tools.

[Edited on 14/10/16 by britishtrident]

nick205 - 14/10/16 at 07:48 AM

quote:
Originally posted by nick205
I had a 306 2.0 HDI some years back, good little car, but not overly fast I have to say. Replaced with an (older) 7 seat Alhambra when we went from 1 to 3 children overnight!

From personal experience with that and VAG TDIs clogged diesel filters are very often the issue. They're rarely changed during a garage service and for the low £ and ease of change they're well worth doing. Even VAG genuine filters are not expensive and have taken me less than 1/2 to change. Some diesel engines self-prime the filter, but others benefit from the new filter being filled with fresh diesel to avoid getting air in the system (engine won't usually start with air in the system).


ETA...while you're under the bonnet check the air filter too. If it's past it's best and strangling the engine of air you'll be going slow!

ETA2...both of the above will see an increase in MPG too as the engine will be working better.

[Edited on 13/10/16 by nick205]

[Edited on 13/10/16 by nick205]



As I said before, try the cheap, quick and easy jobs first to see it things improve. New filters don't do any harm and it gives you a date to work from for subsequent replacements too. Certainly on a number of VAG TDIs I've had good results from diesel filter replacement. 1/2 hr driveway (or roadside) work under the bonnet and then a test drive. Post up your progress/results here as well - it may be of use to others!

SJ - 14/10/16 at 08:56 AM

With the diesel filter change on my Mondy I needed a priming pump to get it running afterwards. I just used one of the cheap bulb pumps.

nick205 - 14/10/16 at 10:33 AM

quote:
Originally posted by SJ
With the diesel filter change on my Mondy I needed a priming pump to get it running afterwards. I just used one of the cheap bulb pumps.


I too had a non-starter Seat TDI after a filter change. Filling the filter with fresh diesel sorted it though and the car ran perfectly thereafter. My understanding is that some diesel systems prime the system from the tank and some don't. This that don't can need coaxing back into life.

Mr Whippy - 14/10/16 at 11:32 AM

My missus almost destroyed our cmax 2.0dti through just using it for really short journeys in the village, at 55k it barely started, jammed injectors, endless warning lights, blue smoke pouring out the exhaust and brakes & suspension continually needing rebuild costing us about £600 a year on repairs.

Got her a petrol Toyota instead.

Then took the cmax on holiday several times pulling the caravan and I’ve been using it everyday to work for months now and its running like a dream. All it’s previous problems including the smoke and stuck injectors has just vanished. Regularly getting 65-70mpg and it’s really quick.

Diesels are no use for just short journeys at all.

mcerd1 - 14/10/16 at 01:02 PM

Vmax1974 - from your other post you said its a 02 plate picasso, so I don't believe it has a DPF
google does suggest the MAF sensor is a common issue and I'm assuming you've tried air and fuel filters by now, but boost leaks are highly likely too...

it happened to my brothers 2.0hdi 206 more than once (a 53 plate so I assume its basically the same setup as yours) in fact its a pity you didn't have this issue a few months back as the thing was sitting waiting for the scrap man (after it failed the MOT on effectively all its suspension and brake components) the engine was the only half decent bit of it left....


quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
Regularly getting 65-70mpg and it’s really quick.

My 1.8 petrol cmax only manages 24~27mpg day to day (stop start all less than 5 mile trips, although I'm not really making much effort to get better economy) or maybe 35 to 38mpg on a longer trip

I don't actually like the way diesels drive anyway, but all these stories about the modern diesels have put me off completely despite the fuel saving....

quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
Diesels are no use for just short journeys at all.

the little 1.6 VAG diesels with DPF's are really bad for that too - as my mum found out with her polo and my aunts 2.0TDI Tiguan thing isn't much better - both of them will be getting a petrol next time


[Edited on 14/10/2016 by mcerd1]

Mr Whippy - 14/10/16 at 01:54 PM

I've seen the reviews of the smaller engined cmax diesels and yes that do often complain of the bad mpg. However the 2.0 duratorq is amazingly good and the car I’d say is way overpowered for such a small car though perfect for towing. Main complaint would be the gearing is just a bit too high as 6th gear is only possible above 50mph, 45mph would be more usable.

Personally I loth diesels, very noisy, terribly small usable rev range takes all the fun out but getting away with just £13 a week on fuel where my Volvo was costing me at least 3 times that forces me to use the cmax. I worked out at the end of the year I’d have over £700 extra in my pocket!

[Edited on 14/10/16 by Mr Whippy]

Mr Whippy - 14/10/16 at 02:07 PM

Vmax1974 according to wiki the engine in your Picasso is the same as my cmax so must be incredibly ill or even in limp mode.

I'd suggest you go an get it looked at right way before it just blows up. These engines are very expensive for parts if it does get damaged.

Vmax1974 - 14/10/16 at 04:03 PM

To be honest its been like it for over a year but now swmbo has started moaning about it

Had a poke about and it seems like there is a induction leak noise so i will be checking the pipes over the weekend when i get chance also got drive belt and tensioner and a drop like to fix

quote:
Originaly posted by Mr Whippy
Vmax1974 according to wiki the engine in your Picasso is the same as my cmax so must be incredibly ill or even in limp mode.

I'd suggest you go an get it looked at right way before it just blows up. These engines are very expensive for parts if it does get damaged.

Mr Whippy - 14/10/16 at 09:09 PM

Well like I said if the missus is just using it for short journeys don't have a diesel engine change to a petrol car as they can cope better. Either that or use the car for a long journey once a week or so to burn off all the deposits.

mark chandler - 14/10/16 at 09:12 PM

I leant to drive when diesels were horrible things, I can remember a BMC powered taxi marina of all things trundling around the town chuffing out black smoke...and cars converted with Perkins 4203's. Shoved into landrovers... Gastly.

A decent modern diesel is a joy to drive, I will rue the day when they tax them out of existence.

Vmax1974 - 14/10/16 at 09:14 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
Well like I said if the missus is just using it for short journeys don't have a diesel engine change to a petrol car as they can cope better. Either that or use the car for a long journey once a week or so to burn off all the deposits.


We do plenty of miles 227 day before yesterday 386 yesterday 189 today so distance is not an issue will get a few bits on sunday and see what happens

Vmax1974 - 14/10/16 at 09:17 PM

quote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
I leant to drive when diesels were horrible things, I can remember a BMC powered taxi marina of all things trundling around the town chuffing out black smoke...and cars converted with Perkins 4203's. Shoved into landrovers... Gastly.

A decent modern diesel is a joy to drive, I will rue the day when they tax them out of existence.


I remember those times when petrol cars had a choke

Most kids these days have never been in a car with a choke and don't know what its for

mcerd1 - 19/10/16 at 07:22 PM

did any of these things above work for you ?

quote:
Originally posted by Vmax1974
I remember those times when petrol cars had a choke

Most kids these days have never been in a car with a choke and don't know what its for

That was only 8 years ago for me
I didn't have a car without a manual choke until 2008 (mind you I can't really count myself as young anymore )

2008 is also the first time I had a car with I got 5th gear, fuel injection, airbags, electric windows, central locking and intermittent wipers (on the road at least, the 1989 Granada donor had all the mod cons....)
but I had to wait till car no 4 in 2014 to get ABS for the first time....

[Edited on 19/10/2016 by mcerd1]

britishtrident - 20/10/16 at 07:08 AM

They made a Morris Oxford diesel with the diesel version of the B series used in Nuffield Tractors . The 1960's Oxford Farina was already no ball of fire the claimed zero to 60 times was over 21 seconds but with diesel engine it was over 40 seconds and it couldn't get near the 70 mph legal limit even going downhill.
Somebody was idiot enough to convert an MGB ..... just because you can do something .................

Vmax1974 - 20/10/16 at 07:28 AM

Not had tome to check anything yet just hoping i dont break down it still managed 290 miles yesterday and 140 the day before that but i will get onto it

I drive cars with chokes all the time my brother collects classics mainly rovers the list includes 2 rover P2's, 2 x rover 90's an SD1, 2 others rovers that i forget what they are then there is a relient scimitar se5a an austin a6 and 2 z austin Cambridge then his daily drivers a rover 75, rover 25, Toyota rav 4 and a mazda rx8 and probably some that i dont know about

Vmax1974 - 25/10/16 at 08:15 AM

So i got a few mins spare the other day so i changed the MAF and wow what a difference so much so the drivers seat collapsed under acceleration lol so fixing that in a few mins then hunting for a new seat

Irony - 25/10/16 at 12:03 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Vmax1974
So i got a few mins spare the other day so i changed the MAF and wow what a difference so much so the drivers seat collapsed under acceleration lol so fixing that in a few mins then hunting for a new seat


Glad you got it fixed, mines on its way out again so I be buying another shortly.

MikeR - 7/11/16 at 11:17 AM

quote:
Originally posted by MikeR
As we're talking about the engine ....

I've got an smax with the 2.0 tdci (140bhp) and i've got two questions.

1) has anyone changed the belts? Garage (citroen / peugeot specialist) seems a bit surprised i'm asking about changing them but ford says 125k or 10 years. I'm on 123.5k.

2) i get a weird pulse most but not all of the time on hard acceleration in 4, 5 or 6th. Its like 1 second full power, 1 second 70% power, 1 second full power etc etc. Its had this for a couple of years. Seems ok the day after a service.

Any ideas? Garage suggestes replacing the EGR as a guess but isn't sure and I don't want to spend 300 quid on a part + fitting for a guess on a car thats not worth that much.


Had the belts done at 125k almost exactly - 355 quid - included belt (88 quid) water pump + water (55 quid) and labour then VAT.

Interestingly on one journey it didn't seem to pulse - will hopefully remember to check back here and say if it still doesn't pulse. Thinking back, it usually doesn't pulse the first journey after its serviced. I'm wondering if the belt has fixed the pulsing problem OR the problem is the engine is trying to find its limit and pushing it a little too hard now so having to back off.

MikeR - 9/1/17 at 11:01 PM

still pulses - but only at 30% the level it used to so its a lot better. I hardly notice it and only think about it when i'm doing 60mph and floor it up a hill on a motorway. Garage wonder if replacing the EGR valve would help, except its integrated in the manifold so 300 quid - its not worth it.

CosKev3 - 10/1/17 at 10:45 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Irony
quote:
Originally posted by Vmax1974
So i got a few mins spare the other day so i changed the MAF and wow what a difference so much so the drivers seat collapsed under acceleration lol so fixing that in a few mins then hunting for a new seat


Glad you got it fixed, mines on its way out again so I be buying another shortly.


Maybe worth looking into if the MAF can be mapped out?

My VAG PD lump has the MAF mapped out and just uses the MAP sensor instead

garyo - 10/1/17 at 12:23 PM

Have another look at the EGR- If it's stuck open then disconnecting it won't do much. better to slide in a blanking plate made up of some 1mm ally sheet and see what effect it has.