DIY Si
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 posted on 6/2/07 at 06:40 PM |
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205 T16 transmission
As some of you know I'm looking for a new project to play with. I'm after something a little different and have been looking at a 205 T16
look-a-like I've spotted sitting looking abandoned in a near by street, and they look quite tempting. Main problem so far being the
transmission. Anyone know of a transverse mid mounted 4x4 set up? I could use something like a 4x4 sierra set up and extend the front prop whilst
shortening the rear one. However, space for the engine and box may be a little tight. Any ideas as I'm a little stumped by this so far.
“Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
Sun Tzu, The Art of War
My new blog: http://spritecave.blogspot.co.uk/
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kikiturbo
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| posted on 6/2/07 at 07:04 PM |
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you could use a longitudinal engine + transaxle from a FWD car, like audi A6, and mount it transversely, and use it's front diff as a centre
diff... make some propshafts and mount diffs in the front and rear... but I think that sierra cosworth idea is the best one...
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DIY Si
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| posted on 6/2/07 at 07:12 PM |
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Only problem though is the length of the car behind the seats, or marked lack thereof. Not sure I could actually fit a north-south engine and box in
at all, let alone with room for a rear diff. The Audi idea may work, but does anyone know the distance (ish) from the front of the engine to the
centre of the main diff? Making the rear diff fit and have drive could be hard if it won't fit somewhere near the middle of the car.
“Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
Sun Tzu, The Art of War
My new blog: http://spritecave.blogspot.co.uk/
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kikiturbo
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| posted on 6/2/07 at 07:19 PM |
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but if you are using the "audi" idea, you just have to mount the engine toward the side of the car, and centre the diff on the centerline
of the car... in fact that is exactly how 205T16 was done... the engine sits fully on the passenger side of the car...
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DIY Si
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| posted on 6/2/07 at 07:21 PM |
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I thought it might be, that's why I want to know the distance front to back of the engine, to see if the engine'll fit. Using a 1.8 turbo
Audi lump would make things simpler too.
“Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
Sun Tzu, The Art of War
My new blog: http://spritecave.blogspot.co.uk/
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kikiturbo
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| posted on 6/2/07 at 07:27 PM |
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unfortunately I do not have that info... one thing though... you should get a limited slipp diff for that gearbox.. .I think there are no OE audi FWD
boxes with an LSD...
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DIY Si
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| posted on 6/2/07 at 07:31 PM |
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Good point. An adjustable one could be good, as it would allow me to alter the front/back power balance to suit weather/terrain/driving preference
etc.
Actually ignore that, I was thinking of something else entirely.
[Edited on 6/2/07 by DIY Si]
“Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
Sun Tzu, The Art of War
My new blog: http://spritecave.blogspot.co.uk/
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kikiturbo
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| posted on 6/2/07 at 07:37 PM |
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hmm.... adjustable LSD will not give you the F/R torque adjustment you want... you need a torque splitter for that... not an LSD.. in other words you
need a special diff that is hardly off the shelf item...
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John Bonnett
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| posted on 6/2/07 at 07:37 PM |
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Peugeot made a 405 4 wheel drive and I just wondered if you could use the bits from one of those. I had one as a business car in the late 80s and a
local chap has an estate version that he bought for £500 so price should not be a problem. Just a thought.
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novacaine
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| posted on 6/2/07 at 07:40 PM |
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hmm, ive thought about simmilar projects too, T16, awsome car, probably the best looking rally car,
i had the idea of longitudinaly mounting a FWD engine+'box and then running the driveshafts to the front and back ford LSD diffs, just an idea,
maybe the centre diff may need some work, im not too sure,
post some pics if you go ahead with it, i would love to see someone building a T16
And you run and you run to catch up with the sun but its sinking, Racing around to come up behind you again, the sun is the same in a relative way but
your older, shorter of breath and one day closer to death
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nick205
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| posted on 6/2/07 at 07:40 PM |
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I'm looking into a similar project to build a 4wd 205 (front engined).
My current thinking is to use a 405 Mi16 4x4 as a doner for the engine, gearbox, prop shaft and rear diff and all 4 driveshafts.
The rear of the car would be modified to take an IRS (or De Dion) suspension setup mounted in a fabricated sub-frame/roll cage.
Granted you are talking about a mid engined set-up, but the advantages of my plans are the use of mainly standard Pug parts and the Mi16 engine is
still very light so won't upset the weight distribution in the car (in fact the rear drive set-up will add some weight and should improve the
overall balance.
Personally I plan to keep the exterior of the car pretty standard bar a few aesthtic mods. Power target would be +200bhp.
This shows some of the 405 Mi16 4x4 drivetrain details for reference...
 
Rescued attachment 405x4_2.jpg
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DIY Si
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| posted on 6/2/07 at 07:41 PM |
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The 4x4 pug's are one thing I've been looking for info on, but I can't find any pics of the underneath of the car/the transmission
to see if it's modifiable or not for this.
Typical, I say I can't find a pic, and by the time I've finished typing someone's already posted one!
[Edited on 6/2/07 by DIY Si]
“Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
Sun Tzu, The Art of War
My new blog: http://spritecave.blogspot.co.uk/
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kikiturbo
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| posted on 6/2/07 at 07:43 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by John Bonnett
Peugeot made a 405 4 wheel drive and I just wondered if you could use the bits from one of those. I had one as a business car in the late 80s and a
local chap has an estate version that he bought for £500 so price should not be a problem. Just a thought.
the problem is that with the engione in the rear, you can not pass the propshaft for front wheel drive trough it...
peugeot sold a car named 405 T16 in europe... which is 4x4 turbo... that would be a laugh to mount into a 205 shell but with the engine in front... in
fact, pug engines are mounted at a serious rearwards angle, so the weight bias is less of a problem..
there is one more "idea" from me...
I'd go for a Audi V6 with a transaxle and 4x4... mount it longitudinally, with the front diff driving the rear wheels, and then have a gear
manufacturer make you a transfer box that taked drive from the rear propshaft, takes it to the side, so that you can run the prop along the engine to
the front...
hmm, mid mount 4x4... not an easy or Locost project... keep us informed..
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DIY Si
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| posted on 6/2/07 at 07:45 PM |
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A quick thought on the diffs, an lsd rear is easy enough to find, but do you lot reckon an lsd at the front would be much use?
“Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
Sun Tzu, The Art of War
My new blog: http://spritecave.blogspot.co.uk/
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kikiturbo
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| posted on 6/2/07 at 07:47 PM |
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LSD front on a 4x4 will alter the cornering behaviour with the power on... it is not something you would tihnk would be noticable but it does work
with lots of power...
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John Bonnett
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| posted on 6/2/07 at 07:52 PM |
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quote
the problem is that with the engione in the rear, you can not pass the propshaft for front wheel drive trough it...
Good point, I'd not thought of that, sorry.
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DIY Si
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| posted on 6/2/07 at 07:56 PM |
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But could you though? I thought the sierra 4x4 had the front prop going through/very near/bolted to the sump? Maybe not as silly as it seems?
Or is it?
“Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
Sun Tzu, The Art of War
My new blog: http://spritecave.blogspot.co.uk/
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kikiturbo
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| posted on 6/2/07 at 07:56 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by John Bonnett
quote
the problem is that with the engione in the rear, you can not pass the propshaft for front wheel drive trough it...
Good point, I'd not thought of that, sorry.
no need to say sorry..  in fact, anything is possible, the only question is how locost you want to be... the moment you start with custom
gearboxes.... the budget skyrockets...
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rav
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| posted on 6/2/07 at 07:59 PM |
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A sierra 4x4x box with the engine up front (you could cut out some bulkhead and move the engine back into the scuttle area a bit to get weight further
back so its more like a T16) would be a good,fairly straightforward option.
MT75 4x4 boxes are 2 a penny and props can easily be made any lenght you desire. Talk to Liam if you want more info on them - he's building a
4x4 'locost'.
Audi mounted sideways, or any FWD 'box mounted sideways (eg running propshafts out of where the driveshafts normally go) sounds good, except for
one problem - gearing. Effectively you'll be running two final drives so it will be stupily low geared - not so cool.
The very best way IMO would be to go more like the RS200 transmission layout. Rear mounted engine, with the output facing forward. In the RS200
drive is transmitted forward via a propshaft spinning at engine speed to the gearbox and transfer case, which sit at the front. Power is then
distributed L/R and rearwards via another propshaft to the rear diff which sits behind the engine.
Hope that makes some sense...?
Having the box up front and seperated from the engine creates a few problems though, so if it were me I would use a conventional front engined, RWD
gearbox, eg Ford type 9, MT 75 etc, with the engine at the back and gearbox infront of it, between the seats.
Then a transfer case mounted somewhere infront of that can step the drive to the passenger side, into the centre diff. From there two props carry
drive forwards and rearwards to the F & R diffs. Easy!!
The only tricky bit is the transfer case/centre diff which might need to be made if there isn't a vehicle which has one on (maybe a landy?).
Mark
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tom_loughlin
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| posted on 6/2/07 at 07:59 PM |
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Funnily enough, I have just bought a MI16x4 last weekend. Also got a 205, but not sure whether to combine the two.
Regarding mid engines, I drive an mr2 turbo which is an awesome car - I dread to think of the performance of that lump in a 205.... sonething I have
been considering!
Will be interested to hear how you get on!
Tom
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kikiturbo
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| posted on 6/2/07 at 08:00 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DIY Si
But could you though? I thought the sierra 4x4 had the front prop going through/very near/bolted to the sump? Maybe not as silly as it seems?
Or is it?
in you midmount aplication, taking the propshaft trough the sump is not a problem, there is space... but the problem is modifying the transfer box
(that takes drive to the rear) and turning it over towards the front... not enough space unless you have a custom made transfer box..
one more thing... pug 4x4 boxes have some problems handling major power,.... and there is a shortage of spare parts...
I have some friends with 405 T16's and have just missed on buying one for that reason...
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DIY Si
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| posted on 6/2/07 at 08:05 PM |
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Regarding the 4x4 mt75, is it possible to alter it so the power split is different? Ie turning it round would give a 66%/33% front-rear split, whilst
The other way round would be better. That would get around the transfer box bit, the gearing issue, and put everything in the passenger side too.
The RS200 thing sounds way too complicated for what I want! If weight front/rear is an issue, I'll just move my seat forwards a bit, as I weigh
just shy of 100kgs already! I'm hoping for ~800/850 kgs dry weight.
[Edited on 6/2/07 by DIY Si]
“Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
Sun Tzu, The Art of War
My new blog: http://spritecave.blogspot.co.uk/
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rav
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| posted on 6/2/07 at 08:29 PM |
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Yeah RS200 style front mounted gearbox/transfer case all combined (at least I think thats how they did it?) is not a very
'locost'option!
MT75 4x4 facing "the wrong way" would as you say give you more power to the front than the rear which isn't great. More
significantly though, unless you ran the diff's upside down (not a great idea as they apparently aren't as strong that way due to the
gears running on the faces they weren't designed for) you will have a car that goes very quickly backwards, with 5 gears!! But only one for
forwards...
Thats why I suggest a making or finding a transfer case. It would consist of two big, equal sized gears in a case, one taking drive from the gearbox
output (perhaps via a short propshaft so it doesn't have to be mounted rigidly to the gearbox) and the secong gear being bolted around the
centre diff (an Audi centre diff is a very small Torsen unit with a 50:50 power split) with propshafts running out of it front & rear.
By using two gears rather than a chain to transfer power to the centre diff you reverse the direction of rotation so that its back to normal again
ready for the front and rear diffs.
It might sound a bit complicated, but then all 4x4 systems are really. I think a transfer case would be easy enough to make - some aluminium plates
machined out to take big bearings suitable for the sizes of input/output shafts and boxed in to contain some oil for lubrication.
Not sure any of the front engined 4x4 cars would be any good as donars, AFAIK they're all basically FWD layouts with power taken off and sent
REARWARDS. The front driveshafts on these exit from the gearbox/diff (all one peice like any FWD car) so if you move it to the back you can't
rotate it (car will go backwards) and if you run it the same orientation but mounted at the rear you then have an output coming out of the back of
your car - not much use for driving the front diff!!
MT75 4x4 mounted at the front would deffinitely be the easiest way, its just not quite as cool as a true middy!
Mark
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nick205
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| posted on 6/2/07 at 08:36 PM |
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205s have been fitted with Cossie 4wd systems before as per the pic below, but IMHO it can't do the overall balance, of what is a very light and
nimble car, much good.
 
Rescued attachment lastscan.jpg
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nick205
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| posted on 6/2/07 at 08:38 PM |
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Might be worth a U2U to NS Dev on this site (if he doesn't see this). He's built a RWD 205 before - I think he used a Vx 2.0XE engine and
type 9 gearbox with a live axle set-up.
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