aeroluke
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 posted on 14/3/06 at 11:54 PM |
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Which engine for a CEC?
What's the best engine to look for if i'm looking to spend about £1200 on the engine (inc ECU&ancillaries etc) and gearbox? I was
thinking perhaps something like a Ford or Alfa 3.0 V6? How would something like one of the VAG 1.8T engines be in a locost?
Decided to go the CEC route as would like to go for the odd reasonable distance cruise without going mad. Think the next one will be BEC tho! (better
get started with this first one first tho!)
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zxrlocost
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| posted on 15/3/06 at 12:00 AM |
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yep fit your boat anchor
then youll regret it about two weeks later
and fit the real deal
bec
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Mr G
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| posted on 15/3/06 at 12:03 AM |
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http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=39198
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ed_crouch
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| posted on 15/3/06 at 12:05 AM |
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The VW 1.8T engine would be a wicked choice...
BUT...
Getting a gearbox to fir it is the problem, cos VAG have never produced a purely RWD car (AFAIK).
This is fine if you are building a mid engined car, and they are used a lot by middy builders.
The only way I can think of is if you managed either to get a funny bellhousing made up for the venerable old Type 9 box, or managed to get a BMW box
(Getrag 262 or something) to fit.
If you can figure out an easy and cheap way of getting a VAG engine to fit a locost, then do tell me!!
Otherwise, a 2.0Zetec with either twin DCOEs or throttle bodies and Megasquirt EFI seems like a good bet, and probably roughly in your budget too.
150BHP easy (theyre 143 as standard).
HTH.
Ed.
I-iii-iii-iii-ts ME!
Hurrah.
www.wings-and-wheels.net
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donut
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| posted on 15/3/06 at 07:30 AM |
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Easiest modern solutions would be either Ford Zetec or Toyota 4AGE. The Ford Type 9 gearbox fits both engines although you need a special bell housing
for the Toyota engine which is available from RAW.
[Edited on 15/3/06 by donut]
Andy
When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/andywest1/
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bimbleuk
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| posted on 15/3/06 at 07:32 AM |
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Regulars on here have a good idea which engine I'll be recommending 
For a relatively straight forward buy and bolt in then consider the Toyota 4AGE 20V engine.
Light weight compact engine which has proven to be reliable on track and very driveable on road.
Comes fitted with individual throtle bodies and Toyota kindly lightened and balanced the internals at the factory(blacktop)!
147BHP @ 7800 RPM and 112 ft lbs @ 4500 RPM. Note that you've got 100+ lbs ft of torque from 2500 to 7500 RPM whcih makes the engine such a gem
in a light weight car.
Approx prices
Silvertop 4AGE 20V - £600 + VAT
Blacktop 4AGE 20V - £750 + VAT
RWD conversion kit - £300
Low profile sump - £150
Type 9 GBX - £50
20V 4AGE Engine - complete with all ancillaries to run, including, wiring loom & ecu, starter, alternator, coil, igniter, flywheel - £1250 +
VAT
To reduce cost you could make your own wiring loom, fit a Megajolt and find the engine ancilliaries your self.
Plus it looks good!!
 
Original engine bay layout - front
[Edited on 15/3/06 by bimbleuk]
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mangogrooveworkshop
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| posted on 15/3/06 at 08:04 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by zxrlocost
yep fit your boat anchor
then youll regret it about two weeks later
and fit the real deal
bec
Hellfire should be along shortly
Bec is the way Im going but we also have a cec in our collection......
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Hammerhead
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| posted on 15/3/06 at 08:25 AM |
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how about a k series 1.8 a la caterham?
You can get a bellhousing from caterham or titan motorsport and these engines are often available at 190 bhp (VHPD Elise) The engine is also all
aluminium so is lighter than a Zetec. With your budget you should comfortably get a low miler.
.................lights the blue touch paper and runs for cover!!!!
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NS Dev
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| posted on 15/3/06 at 08:37 AM |
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Regulars will also know what engine I will recommend!
I try not to be biased but it makes sense, and in answer to the BEC boys, unless you have over 175hp bike engine my XE will still be better in terms
of power to weight, so not such a "boat anchor" really!!!!
I would say fit a vauxhall XE 16v.
You will struggle to do most modern engines for your budget though! Yes, in theory you will, but in practice you will spend £1500 on pretty much any
modern engine by the time it is in and running.
Those Toyota 20v engines do make a lot of sense though, very nice and getting cheaper now!
Basically there is no "best bet" here's my opinions on a list:
Vauxhall XE 16v 2.0 - good engine, tad heavy, VERY strong, cheap, plentiful, powerful, torquey, getting long in the tooth now
Toyota 20v - modern engine, powerful, fairly torquey, light, throttle bodies as std, seems pricey but not really as it's cheapsh to fit and
RAW have done all the hard work for you
Duratec - pricey, good power but no better than any other decent 2.0 16v, not cheap to fit, won't fit your budget.
Toyota 4AGE - cracking engine but only 1600cc, will fit under "book" bodywork quite easily, not many 16v's will easily! limited
power wise, tough, rev happy and fun, cheap, RAW have again done the hard work for you.
Zetec - cheap as chips, easy to fit with std fordy bits, fairly tough, torquey (2.0), a good bet, but won't make the same sort of power as an XE
or duratec
Zetec S - cracking engine, 1600 or 1700cc, not sure on bellhousings etc though?? It's been done though so who knows? Very light, absolutely
bulletproof, makes sense to me!
Vauxhall Ecotec 1600 16v - another cracking engine, 160hp from bog std engine if you get rid of the std restrictive injection system. Lighter than XE
and revs better.
Vauxhall Ecotec 2.0 16v - costs peanuts, or even free! 160hp from std engine minus std injection gubbins, performs the same as a zetec
basically........but the std 1600 ecotec makes roughly the same power and is lighter.
Rover K-series - very light, pretty cheap, can easily be made tough but you need to know what you are doing with them and I don't!! A good
option but one where you do need to be willing to take it apart before using it.
VAG 1.8T - forget it on your budget
Any V6 - forget it on your budget, unless it's a ford cologne, in which case you may need power steering! (sorry to those using them, I love
em but bit heavy for a locost!) or an alfa, which are great and dirt cheap, but you'll need to be very handy at making bellhousings etc in order
to fit one!
Peugeot 16v - makes sense but too tall!!! doh!!! cracker of an engine!!! Probably the pick of the whole lot, got the toughness of the vauxhall XE, as
good if not better cylinderhead design compared the the XE, and the weight of a duratec! No good though as it won't fit, damn thing!
phew, that's me done, apart from to say, lastly don't forget that £1200 builds a hell of a nice crossflow!
[Edited on 15/3/06 by NS Dev]
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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JonBowden
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| posted on 15/3/06 at 08:47 AM |
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have a look at this site
http://www.westfield-world.com/Home.html
from the menu on the left select Technical -> Engine & Gearbox -> Car Engine Comparison
This gives a nice comparison of most comon engines.
My choices would be (in order of preference)
4-AGE - small, light, powerfull
1.6 Zeetec - small, light, powerfull (less than 4-AGE
1.6 / 1.8 K-series - small, light, powerfull
1.8 / 2.0 Zeetec - not too big, lightish, powerfull
1.6 XFlow - small, light
The 1.8 turbo would be a nice choice (the Dutch seven Donkervoort, probably wrong spelling, uses it). But for me, a turbo would be more complexity
than I would want in a seven - also too much heat under the bonnet.
NS Dev beat me to it with a much better assesment. Still, check out the link above.
[Edited on 15/3/06 by JonBowden]
Jon
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JAG
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| posted on 15/3/06 at 08:50 AM |
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Try the Mazda MX5 Mk1 1600 or 1800cc engine.
Comes with a 5 speed (or 6 on the later cars) gearbox, was originally designed for front engine/rear wheel drive, bulletproof on the road and track.
Heavily raced in just about every class both in Europe and the USA.
This engine was originally designed to be turbocharged (Mazda 323 Turbo late eighties) and is very strong. It has oil jets to the underside of the
pistons!
Can be fitted with any number of tuning parts including turbo & superchargers. Many specialist companies (particularly USA, Flying Miata etc...)
and lots of bits about.
I paid £600 for an engine with all ancilliaries, 5 speed gearbox, ECU, exhaust manifold etc... No extras - my car runs on the Mazda ECU/fuel injection
and never misses a beat.
Only difficulty was making engine mounts and getting the gearbox into the tunnel - it's quite bulky.
Justin
Who is this super hero? Sarge? ...No.
Rosemary, the telephone operator? ...No.
Penry, the mild-mannered janitor? ...Could be!
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JonBowden
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| posted on 15/3/06 at 08:52 AM |
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JAG's right, the MX5 would amke a really good donor.
How about buying a banger MX5, driving it around for the summer, then making a locost out of it.
Jon
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NS Dev
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| posted on 15/3/06 at 08:53 AM |
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good engine, but limited in terms of power compared to the others (in std form) and oil jets etc are not uncommon, most 16v engines have them.
Certainly the XE vauxhall does!
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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COREdevelopments
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| posted on 15/3/06 at 09:21 AM |
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my choice was the 4age only because i work in a toyota dealership and know that these engines are bloody bomb proof, they will rev to about 8000rpm
all day, and sound bloody good too. they are easy to come by as i got mine from an ae92 (corolla gti fwd) i used a ae86 Rwd gearbox which bolts
straight on. i paid a heafty sum of 90quid for the whole car and quite easily made my money back from selling the interior and alloys so the engine
and loom cost me nothing really,
also the 4age is more powerfull than other engines in its class.
the parts can be expensive and i even have them at cost from work.
the choice is yours
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graememk
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| posted on 15/3/06 at 10:07 AM |
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lets add another engine to the list eh. . .nissan ca18. . 1.8 turbo 180ish bhp, comes as rwd and fits in ok see pic
 
graememkengine
[Edited on 15/3/06 by graememk]
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Russ-Turner
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| posted on 15/3/06 at 10:12 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Hammerhead
how about a k series 1.8 a la caterham?
You can get a bellhousing from caterham or titan motorsport and these engines are often available at 190 bhp (VHPD Elise) The engine is also all
aluminium so is lighter than a Zetec. With your budget you should comfortably get a low miler.
.................lights the blue touch paper and runs for cover!!!!
There was one on eBay last week with a starting bid of 99p!
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Hammerhead
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| posted on 15/3/06 at 10:36 AM |
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bargain............as long as the head gasket is ok. Head gaskets seem to be the weak spot on these engines.
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 15/3/06 at 11:13 AM |
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Good choice sticking with a proper engine rather than a buzzy bike engine, if you are going to be doing any distance at all rather than purely track
work it's the right choice IMO.
I would agree with NS Devs summary, and personaly I think the 20XE is a bit of a bargain these days in terms of bhp/£. Bellhousings are easily
available to mate it to ford gearboxs and spares/tuning parts are still readily available.
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Hellfire
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| posted on 15/3/06 at 12:57 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by aeroluke
What's the best engine to look for if i'm looking to spend about £1200 on the engine (inc ECU&ancillaries etc) and gearbox? I was
thinking perhaps something like a Ford or Alfa 3.0 V6? How would something like one of the VAG 1.8T engines be in a locost?
Decided to go the CEC route as would like to go for the odd reasonable distance cruise without going mad. Think the next one will be BEC tho! (better
get started with this first one first tho!)
Motorcycle engines CAN cruise  You never heard of Sports Tourers  You do have a pedal which controls the throttle - it's not an on/off
switch (although it can be one when the fancy takes you ) What I'm saying is - you don't have to rev the nuts off em and thrash them
everywhere you go.
There are a few people on here who have done trips to Le Mans and back in Blade engined cars on more than one ocassion.
If you've had a ride in both CECs and BECs to reach your conclusion, then fair enough, they're not to everyones taste. But don't
rule out a bike engine if you've never experienced one
Phil
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NS Dev
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| posted on 15/3/06 at 01:11 PM |
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heh heh BEC vs CEC!!!! LOL!!!
For me it was tricky, and based largely on the fact that I had a shedful of XE bits...............none of which have been used on the car lol!!
If I could build a 1500cc Hayabusa for under 2 grand I would have gone BEC.
As it is, the std XE engine will give me better power to weight than I can achieve spending the same money on a bike engine.
I know I don't have the rather sexy gearbox, which would be very nice, but then I do have reverse, which though not critical, is also nice.
I don't really see the argument myself, both have pros and cons.
I will be building a BEC next, but it's an autograss car, and it will get over the power to weight issue as well, cos it will have two bike
engines!
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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JAG
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| posted on 15/3/06 at 01:37 PM |
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quote:
good engine, but limited in terms of power compared to the others (in std form)
My 1.6 has 116bhp (72.5bhp/Litre) and the 1.8 has 130bhp (72.2bhp/Litre).
A standard 2.0 XE has 150bhp (75bhp/Litre). So not a lot in it as standard.
And the Mazda engine was designed for longitudinal mounting (properly baffled sump) and comes with a ready-to-fit solution for the RWD gearbox. Hence
saving money on special bell housings etc... as required for the XE engine.
....but I am biased
[Edited on 15/3/06 by JAG]
Justin
Who is this super hero? Sarge? ...No.
Rosemary, the telephone operator? ...No.
Penry, the mild-mannered janitor? ...Could be!
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ned
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| posted on 15/3/06 at 01:43 PM |
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Jag,
Just to be pedantic, a standard xe without a cat (if you find an earlier engine) is 155bhp as standard. You can't run the engine in standard
guise as for a locost the standard plenum won't fit under the bonnet (well, i've not come across one that does yet) meaning that you need
to fit carbs or throttle bodies which means on a standard engine in the region of 175bhp. A friend rebuilt his own race engine and using totally
standard gm parts it dyno'd at 187bhp and 160lb/ft - I have seen the printouts myself.
Not saying its better/worse or cheaper than an mx5 engine which certainly has its advantages - but the xe certainly has more tuning potentially
imho.
This makes the xe nearing 90bhp/litre - and as its 0.4 litres bigger than the mazda more power and more importantly (but often over looked) more
torque.
Obviously the xe will weigh a bit more, but not that much - is the mx5 engine an ally block?
Ned.
[Edited on 15/3/06 by ned]
beware, I've got yellow skin
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NS Dev
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| posted on 15/3/06 at 02:15 PM |
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Thats just it Ned, my grasser engine has never even had the head taken off, totally standard ex cavalier GSI engine, just fitted with ARP rod bolts,
and it made 176hp................at the wheels. This was on John Wilcox rolling road in hinckley. It made 204hp @ flywheel with rundown losses.
SBD market their throttle body kit as the SBD 204 kit I think iirc, again, bog stock engine with throttle bodies bolted on and carefully mapped.
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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NS Dev
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| posted on 15/3/06 at 02:18 PM |
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.............sorry, it's 208hp!!!
heres the dyno plot:
that is on a std, secondhand XE16v with the kit bolted on.
Made 170lb ft of torque as well, mine only made 168lb ft, whatever happened to my 2 lb ft, think I should complain
Also see this article from PPC mag, 201hp this time, where did the other 7 go??
PPC XE 16v power article
[Edited on 15/3/06 by NS Dev]
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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liam.mccaffrey
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| posted on 15/3/06 at 02:20 PM |
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it seems that the xe engine and tb's were meant for each other, is there another engine which responds so well to this?
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