Rena
|
| posted on 10/8/15 at 10:06 AM |
|
|
Raceline waterrail - first drive
Hi,
Just got my car finished and took it for a trip this weekend and a couple of problems occured, one of them was overcooling.
My setup is a 2 L Zetec with standard 2 L waterpump, Raceline waterrail with expansiontank.
When normal cruising the engine never gets over 60-70 degrees. When standing in a traffic jam, over 80 degrees.
I have read somewhere I should use a waterpump from a 1,8 L engine. What´s the difference between the 2L and 1,8L waterpump?
Is it possible this is the problem?
Which thermostat should I use? I think I have the one that came with the waterrail.
Any other suggestion how to solve the overcooling?
|
|
|
|
|
britishtrident
|
| posted on 10/8/15 at 10:47 AM |
|
|
The standard Ford fittment in northern Europe is a 92degree thermostat, in hotter climates an 88 degree stat is fitted, normal fan cut-in temp would
be close to 100c. The engine and the ECU mapping are designed to operate at this temperature.
An 88 degree in a standard Mondeo will normally see the engine temperature cycling between 90 and 92 c in normal cruising, in traffic up to 105c is
normal.
Fitting even the 88 degree stat when fitted to Raceline water rail will produce much more extreme temperature highs and lows.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
|
|
|
Paul Turner
|
| posted on 10/8/15 at 12:03 PM |
|
|
Which 2 litre Zetec do you have. Is it a Silvertop (Mondeo to 98 approx.) or Blacktop (later Mk 1 Mondeo and Focus).
If its a Silvertop you need to fit an Escort (and that is the important word) Zetec waterpump. If its a Blacktop you need to fit an idler pulley to
enable the waterpump to run off the back (smooth side) of the belt.
I run an 88 degree stat but the later 92 degree stat is fine. Just prefer mine to be 4 degrees cooler.
Junk the Raceline Water rail, its an expensive piece of carp. Fit the standard Ford housing, stat and all the bypass pipes (see drawing in my photo
archive) and you will have an engine that runs at a constant temp all summer and if you are brave enough winter. Mine been like it now for 13 years
with no issues. Read enough about problems with the Raceline rail to know its simple trouble.
|
|
|
coozer
|
| posted on 10/8/15 at 12:13 PM |
|
|
Doesn't matter which water pump as long as its spinning the right way.
I had a race line water rail, same thing, overcooling most of the time, boiling over once or twice.
Problem is the thermostat is too far away from the head and there's no provision for a bypass hose.
Go back to the standard OEM thermo housing and plumb it up correctly. I did that and had no more issues.
1972 V8 Jago
1980 Z750
|
|
|
Rena
|
| posted on 10/8/15 at 12:43 PM |
|
|
I have a blacktop and an idler pulley just like the picture below.
The reason I´m using waterrail is because the man who started my build had bought it and I don´t have the standard housing.
It should work, why do otherwise Raceline manufacture them?
|
|
|
jeffw
|
| posted on 10/8/15 at 12:50 PM |
|
|
My Raceline waterrail works fine.
|
|
|
Paul Turner
|
| posted on 10/8/15 at 01:02 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Rena
I have a blacktop and an idler pulley just like the picture below.
No need to change your waterpump, your setup is correct for a Blacktop.
quote:
Originally posted by Rena
The reason I´m using waterrail is because the man who started my build had bought it and I don´t have the standard housing.
It should work, why do otherwise Raceline manufacture them?
It does not work because the stat is in a dead area and relies on heat transfer instead of flow to open the stat, Raceline recommend a hole is drilled
in the stat to allow some flow during warm up which is a bodge.
Raceline designed the water rail to make it look like a BDA set up and on the Caterhams they used a standard Caterham supplied BDR top hose, very
simple and cheap.
Get a standard housing (off a Silvertop since the Blacktop ones have no drilling for the temp sender) and follow my drawing, you will have no further
issues. then sell the water rail on e-bay.
|
|
|
Rena
|
| posted on 10/8/15 at 01:11 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
My Raceline waterrail works fine.
Which thermostat are you using?
|
|
|
Rena
|
| posted on 10/8/15 at 01:18 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Paul Turner
quote:
Originally posted by Rena
I have a blacktop and an idler pulley just like the picture below.
No need to change your waterpump, your setup is correct for a Blacktop.
quote:
Originally posted by Rena
The reason I´m using waterrail is because the man who started my build had bought it and I don´t have the standard housing.
It should work, why do otherwise Raceline manufacture them?
It does not work because the stat is in a dead area and relies on heat transfer instead of flow to open the stat, Raceline recommend a hole is drilled
in the stat to allow some flow during warm up which is a bodge.
Raceline designed the water rail to make it look like a BDA set up and on the Caterhams they used a standard Caterham supplied BDR top hose, very
simple and cheap.
Get a standard housing (off a Silvertop since the Blacktop ones have no drilling for the temp sender) and follow my drawing, you will have no further
issues. then sell the water rail on e-bay.
Or is it a Silvertop? I have not learned how to see the difference. I just know it´s enginecode and thats EDDC.
|
|
|
britishtrident
|
| posted on 10/8/15 at 01:19 PM |
|
|
Water rails were devised to make easier to install these eengines is Mk1/2 Escorts and Capri's without bulkhead modifications.
The Raceline water rail has a couple of design flaws one of which is major.
Raceline must have invested fairly substantial sums in getting the patterns made for the casting + cost of manufacturing in batches, to change the
pattern would cost money.
The major problem is lack of warm by-pass coolant circulation around the bulb of thermostat which is fairly distant from the cylinder head coolant
exit. As a result the engine will be close to or at boiling point before the thermostat reaches opening temperature.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
|
|
|
Paul Turner
|
| posted on 10/8/15 at 01:27 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Rena
Or is it a Silvertop? I have not learned how to see the difference. I just know it´s enginecode and thats EDDC.
Its a Blacktop with a Silvertop cam cover, its exactly what I have in mine.
|
|
|
Rena
|
| posted on 10/8/15 at 01:43 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Paul Turner
quote:
Originally posted by Rena
Or is it a Silvertop? I have not learned how to see the difference. I just know it´s enginecode and thats EDDC.
Its a Blacktop with a Silvertop cam cover, its exactly what I have in mine.
great - thanks!
|
|
|
jeffw
|
| posted on 10/8/15 at 02:37 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Rena
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
My Raceline waterrail works fine.
Which thermostat are you using?
From memory it is 88 deg c with two small holes drilled in it. You may have the rail setup wrong...
In the picture you posted you have a line from the uppermost connection near the cap. This is only used if the cap lifts due to overpressure, you
appear to have it 'T'ed off which suggests you have one connection to the expansion tank (correct) and one line to the rad bleed connector
(wrong).
|
|
|
Rena
|
| posted on 10/8/15 at 03:53 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
quote:
Originally posted by Rena
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
My Raceline waterrail works fine.
Which thermostat are you using?
From memory it is 88 deg c with two small holes drilled in it. You may have the rail setup wrong...
In the picture you posted you have a line from the uppermost connection near the cap. This is only used if the cap lifts due to overpressure, you
appear to have it 'T'ed off which suggests you have one connection to the expansion tank (correct) and one line to the rad bleed connector
(wrong).
I have got my thermostat from raceline, I think there are bypass hole in it.
So you say that my plumbing are wrong?
If I connect the small connection directly to the expansion tank, where should I put the bleed?
[Edited on 10/8/15 by Rena]
|
|
|
Rena
|
| posted on 10/8/15 at 03:54 PM |
|
|
I have got a big radiator from an old Volvo, could it be the problem? Too big radiator?
|
|
|
britishtrident
|
| posted on 10/8/15 at 03:59 PM |
|
|
Where you the connection is fine if you have an unpressurised cap however a real issue is that I cannot see any by-pass at all in the picture normally
the by-pass is connected on to the currently blanked connection are on the side of the rail. By-pass flow back to the suction side of the water pump
either through a separate hose or as part of heating plumbing is esential for good running, emmisions, economy and long engine life. I also recently
learned not having suffient by-pass flow is one of the causes of water pump impeller problems on engines with plastic water pump impellers.
Drilling the thermostat is a bodge that gets the thermostat to work in fashion but it is no substitute for by-pass flow.
By-pass flow is intended to ensure an even temperature from the bottom to the top of the engine it creates internal cirulation which keeps the
bottom end of the engine warm preventing bore wear, acidic condensation in the oil, it gives quicker warm up, reduces differential expansion between
head and block ( sometimes called head shuffle one of the main causes of head gasket failure) and ensures the thermostat responds to changes in
temperature due to sudden changes in load, it also reduces the load on the water pump and increases the useful heat energy available on each stroke
and reduces the energy wasted by the water pump.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
|
|
|
jeffw
|
| posted on 10/8/15 at 06:35 PM |
|
|
The way you have it at the moment is wrong. Once you have bleed the rad you need to cap off the bleed (put a large bolt in the tube with a jubillee
clip). Then remove the T from that line and run straight to the expansion tank.
Assuming you have a pressure cap on the rail of course.
[Edited on 10/8/15 by jeffw]
|
|
|
britishtrident
|
| posted on 10/8/15 at 06:36 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Rena
I have got a big radiator from an old Volvo, could it be the problem? Too big radiator?
The normal running temperature is kept above minimum by the thermostat, size of the radiator is immaterial.
The control of the maximum coolant temperature is controlled by the capacity of the radiator to reject heat to the environment which depends on the
area of the rad exposed to airflow, the air mass flow through the rad and ambient temperature.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
|
|
|
r1_pete
|
| posted on 10/8/15 at 06:55 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Paul Turner
quote:
Originally posted by Rena
I have a blacktop and an idler pulley just like the picture below.
No need to change your waterpump, your setup is correct for a Blacktop.
quote:
Originally posted by Rena
The reason I´m using waterrail is because the man who started my build had bought it and I don´t have the standard housing.
It should work, why do otherwise Raceline manufacture them?
It does not work because the stat is in a dead area and relies on heat transfer instead of flow to open the stat, Raceline recommend a hole is drilled
in the stat to allow some flow during warm up which is a bodge.
Raceline designed the water rail to make it look like a BDA set up and on the Caterhams they used a standard Caterham supplied BDR top hose, very
simple and cheap.
Get a standard housing (off a Silvertop since the Blacktop ones have no drilling for the temp sender) and follow my drawing, you will have no further
issues. then sell the water rail on e-bay.
You can buy thermostats with a hole in the rim, they have a toggle through them to prevent blockage.
[Edited on 10/8/15 by r1_pete]
|
|
|
Dingz
|
| posted on 10/8/15 at 10:11 PM |
|
|
Are you sure your gauge tells the truth? Temp seems very low on a run, implies the thermostat would never open!
Phoned the local ramblers club today, but the bloke who answered just
went on and on.
|
|
|
britishtrident
|
| posted on 11/8/15 at 05:52 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dingz
Are you sure your gauge tells the truth? Temp seems very low on a run, implies the thermostat would never open!
The thermostat is what makes the car reach and maintain working temperature, run a car without a thermostat and it will never reach working
temperature unless something else is badly wrong with cooling system.
[Edited on 11/8/15 by britishtrident]
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
|
|
|
britishtrident
|
| posted on 11/8/15 at 06:17 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by r1_pete
You can buy thermostats with a hole in the rim, they have a toggle through them to prevent blockage.
[Edited on 10/8/15 by r1_pete]
On the thermostats with the small hole in the brim and the jiggle valve, the hole is intended to allow trapped air to slowly bleed past the
thermostat when refilling the system. The jiggle valve is designed close this off when the coolant pump is working.
Drilling the thermostat -- usually 2x 2.5 mm holes is a trick to allow some flow around the thermostat bulb to enable it to respond more quickly is an
old trick I using 40 years back when building Imp engines but using it without a proper by-pass flow is a dreadful bodge. Modern engines are
designed to run increasingly large flow rates round the by-pass flow circuit. In the 1950's the by-pass connection was a less than 1/2"
bore between the water pump and the cylinder head these days a lot of engines have external thermostats with full 32mm bore pipe work as the by-pass
circuit.
Cooling systems are getting more complex for the last couple of years Ford have been building some of the latest models with three separate cooling
circuit controlled by the ECU each with their own coolant pump.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
|
|
|
Paul Turner
|
| posted on 11/8/15 at 07:36 AM |
|
|
If a hole drilled in the thermostat was the perfect solution why did Ford spend countless amounts of money developing a complicated thermostat housing
and bypass circuit. Could it possibly be the simple fact Fords solution is better.
|
|
|
jeffw
|
| posted on 11/8/15 at 07:40 AM |
|
|
We get it Paul Turner & British Trident. The Ford solution is better and we are all idiots for using the Raceline waterrail.
However telling the OP over and over again he is an idiot for using the Raceline waterrail in a evangelical way isn't helping his issue with his
waterrail.
|
|
|
Paul Turner
|
| posted on 11/8/15 at 08:14 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
We get it Paul Turner & British Trident. The Ford solution is better and we are all idiots for using the Raceline waterrail.
However telling the OP over and over again he is an idiot for using the Raceline waterrail in a evangelical way isn't helping his issue with his
waterrail.
When have British Trident and myself ever called anyone an idiot, please show us and if you cannot please apologise.
For good measure I have reported your post.
The OP has an issue and its the same issue many people have had using the Raceline water rail. When I fitted the Zetec I favoured the Raceline rail
simply because of its looks and ease of plumbing but after taking to several owners and reading about issues (mainly on the Westfield site) I took the
decision to use the Ford housing, a decision I have not regretted.
The Retro Ford water rail appears to be a good solution for installations with limited space and it does incorporate the correct thermostat in the
correct position with the provision of a bypass circuit. Never used one so no idea if it works.
[Edited on 11/8/15 by Paul Turner]
|
|
|
