stevegough
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 posted on 3/12/09 at 10:04 AM |
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caterham's foam baffle insert
Anybody had any experience of using a foam wet sump baffle?
link:
https://www.caterhamparts.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=137_139&products_id=2830&osCsid=c611fbdb0dab0d9fa0e5d0ffd10c9170
Luego Locost C20XE.
Build start: October 6th 2008.
IVA passed Jan 28th 2011.
First drive Feb 10th 2011.
First show: Stoneleigh 1st/2nd May 2011.
'Used up' first engine may 3rd 2011!
Back on the road with 2nd engine may 24th
First PASA mad drive 26/7/11
Sold to Mike in Methyr Tydvil 19/03/14
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Hammerhead
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| posted on 3/12/09 at 10:59 AM |
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i heard it breaks down quite quickly. so best to change it at every service. i have one but not fitted it.
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dhutch
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| posted on 3/12/09 at 12:38 PM |
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I have no experence of it all, caterhams or any other, however of the reports i have heard there have been several that have mentioned breaking up of
the foam.
- I see no reason why a suitably designed foam insert of the right foam shouldnt work very well and prehaps decent ones (from caterham?) work fine
and its mearly cheap copys that the problems are with (very easy to make a cheap copy, very hard to know its its good or not) but clearly broken up
foam in the oilways and pump is a massive no no!
Daniel
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MikeCapon
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| posted on 3/12/09 at 12:46 PM |
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We used a similar foam in race bike fuel tanks in the early 80's. It was called Explosafe and it worked well as a baffle apart from robbing a
bit of capacity. No problems at all with it breaking down even soaked in a 50/50 mix of Avgas 110LL and 4 star.
The other benefit was supposedly that it prevented the fuel vapour from exploding in the event of an accident.
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blakep82
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| posted on 3/12/09 at 02:28 PM |
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might be ok on a race engine that gets stripped and inspected regularly. i wouldn't have it in my engine though
________________________
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don't write OT on a new thread title, you're creating the topic, everything you write is very much ON topic!
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charlie_pank
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| posted on 3/12/09 at 04:18 PM |
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Foam baffle
If you trawl the tech-talk on www.blatchat.com you'll find 'Oilyhands' (Dave Andrews) recommends removing the foam all together and
drilling a couple of strategic holes in the sump gasket to improve oil drainage into the sump. This is what I have done.
When I bought the car, the sump foam was squashed up under a windage plate, not sloshing around in the sump. This is normal aparrently. How a bit of
foam 1cm deep, squashed up like that could make a difference to anything, I just don't know. It's utterly useless, even if it
doesn't break down. Just do Dave Andrews' gasket modification instead.
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stevegough
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 posted on 3/12/09 at 05:04 PM |
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As I am getting bad vibes from most of you, I think I'll give it a miss.
Thanks for all the replies,
Regardz, Steve.
Luego Locost C20XE.
Build start: October 6th 2008.
IVA passed Jan 28th 2011.
First drive Feb 10th 2011.
First show: Stoneleigh 1st/2nd May 2011.
'Used up' first engine may 3rd 2011!
Back on the road with 2nd engine may 24th
First PASA mad drive 26/7/11
Sold to Mike in Methyr Tydvil 19/03/14
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Willie
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| posted on 4/12/09 at 06:08 PM |
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The problem with the sump foam is that it goes brittle. I'm not sure if its heat or a reaction with the oil, or a combination of both, but when
I first got my Caterham, I got a new foam to put in it at the first engine upgrade (Didn't take me long...) As soon as I felt the difference in
the two, there was no way it was going in.
The new foam was soft and flexible. The old one was hard and crispy...like supernoodles before you add the water. Obviously something had happened
and it had become brittle, and I didn't want this continuing, breaking up then blocking the pickup gauze, or heading up to the pump.
I spent ALOT of time sorting my wet-sump surge issues on the Caterham, and eventually discovered that the gasket wasn't allowing oil down quick
enough, and due to the angle of the engine in the Caterham, a pool of oil was sitting above the gasket...instead of returning to the sump. I took the
centre out of the gasket, so it was just a gasket and not a baffle (Still kept the windage plate with no foam) and filled the oil to the max with the
engine running (As some volume is in the oilways, pump etc. This cured my surge issues.
As Charlie says, the foam in the Caterham sump is really more for windage, as it does nothing for surge...but having experienced the stuff, I
wouldn't risk putting it in my engine.
If you want anti-surge, go for baffles or a dry sump. Something I have toyed with the idea off is a floating pickup pipe, that swings with the flow
of oil. I even have a lump of suitable plastic pipe that I intend to trial at some stage, although a mechanical linkage would be nicer to stop
bounce.
Willie
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dhutch
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| posted on 4/12/09 at 06:30 PM |
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I agree that if i was after anti surge i would be welding in physical baffles.
- Hadnt heard about the gasget issue before (i have a cvh) but i do fill mine right up to the top of the max, or very slightly above. If the oil gets
a bit low (from about the middle of min and max) surging will occur but not if its kept full.
Daniel
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omega 24 v6
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| posted on 4/12/09 at 09:18 PM |
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Which gasket are we talking about here?? I also have surge issues to resolve but am worried about spending £300 with SBD or QED for their wet sump
lowline setup and it still being a problem.
If it looks wrong it probably is wrong.
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Willie
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| posted on 16/12/09 at 11:18 PM |
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I was referring to the gasket in a K-Series engine.
In a K-Series the gasket is not use a thin 1/2" strip around the outside, its more like a big plate the whole way across the sump, with a bit
removed in the middle.
Have a look here for photos.
Its more of a problem in the Caterham install as the engine sits at an angle.
Willie
p.s. Sorry for the delay replying, been busy playing with cars
Willie
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omega 24 v6
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| posted on 17/12/09 at 12:25 PM |
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Ah OK thanks for that. It looks like the wallet needs prized open then
If it looks wrong it probably is wrong.
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NS Dev
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| posted on 17/12/09 at 03:43 PM |
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hmmmmm, lots of replies about K series engine, but not about the vauxhall.
I can speak from experience here as I have a caterham HPC wet sump on my vauxhall, WITH foam insert.
If you were to fit the caterham sump without it, your engine will last 1 roundabout.
I get oil surge WITH the foam, and that's on road use, not trackdays.
I have spoken to guys at sprint meetings with caterham HPC's running the wet sump and sticky tyres who claim no problems, well, I can only
assume their pressure lights don't work!!
I have an oil light set at 25psi and it comes on on any hard roundabout.
You also have to run the oil level VERY high (i.e. the crank is sitting in the oil when its not running).
I have had NO problems with the foam in the 2 years its been in there though, and nor has anybody else with an HPC that I have spoken to, yet many
with K-series cars have had trouble!!! A few have put it down to regular head gasket trouble on the k, putting antifreeze into the oil which has
somehow knackered the foam.
I don't like the idea of the foam, but to run the caterham sump you aint got a choice, as it will just not work without it.
With the K series sump you can get away with a baffle, but the HPC sump is only 2 inches deep, and flat all the way along.
Sorry, but the real answer is dry sump.
Mine is getting one as soon as I can afford it, next year.
The amising thing is that the HPC wet sump is actually SHALLOWER than a lot of the XE dry sump pans!!The bottom of the reinforcing fins is more or
less flush with the teeth on the flywheel ring gear, and the fins are 13mm deep or so!!!
I am planning to modify my wet sump pan to make it the dry sump pan, its such a nice casting it seems a shame to bolt on a crappy casting like most of
the dry sump pans are.
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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omega 24 v6
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| posted on 17/12/09 at 05:06 PM |
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So NS DEV have you any experience with the sbd or QED ones?? the have a built in baffle plate and no foam and are reported to be surge free.
I also notice they have a large and VERY flat pickup pipe as well.
I'm of the opinion that if it does work then I should be able to replicate it but after 3 go's at it i'm still none the better off (
but it is getting better.
If it looks wrong it probably is wrong.
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NS Dev
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| posted on 19/12/09 at 10:47 AM |
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Not personal experience, but I know of several people running the QED sump which is the same as SBD et al. and they have no problems at all.
The problem with them is that they are deeper than the caterham one, by quite a bit!
I basically exactly replicated the caterham HPC installation in my locost (its a modified Stuart Taylor IRS chassis, which is very small, basically
pre-lit westy/ caterham sized) and also used the ST grp which is very low, designed to be a tight fit on a crossflow.
This meant that even with the belt cover removed and the cover "flange" machined off the cam cover, its still only around 5mm off the
underside of the bonnet, and the sump flange on the bottom of the engine block is around 19mm above the chassis rail, i.e. you need a very shallow
sump!!!
I puzzled over this for ages, as everybody else with MK's and Westfields have MUCH more room, and were all using modded sumps or the QED
ones..........
Then I saw the Caterham HPC jobbie on one at a sprint meet at curborough and realised how they did it, the sump is no deeper than the flywheel, and a
good half inch of that is reinforcing rib.
here's a pic, doesn't show the actual top flange, its just in the shadow, but you can see the tapered ribs and then the actual pan part,
which is around 50mm deep.
 
sump clearance
[Edited on 19/12/09 by NS Dev]
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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NS Dev
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| posted on 19/12/09 at 10:50 AM |
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bear in mind, in the pic above, that the bellhousing has an open flat bottom from which the ring gear just protrudes. The photo makes the sump look
lower than it is.
What is the giveaway is the gearbox. The bottom of the type 9 is lower than the pan part of the sump.......
[Edited on 19/12/09 by NS Dev]
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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