stephen_gusterson
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| posted on 18/1/03 at 11:30 PM |
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[quotethought, they weigh 680lbs as an installed wet weight, but hey, i wasn't far off, 
date, and steve, mine does have a manual box!!!!
the jag v12 holds about 38 pints of water and about 20 pints of oil. Just the wet element adds around 50lbs of water and 20+ lbs of oil!
Your V12 can't be from an xjs then - only 300 were made manual. If it was, thats the early non HE engine that makes a bit less hp. From an E type or
a saloon?
One reason I got shot of my xjs was it was disappointing on the road performance wise. I could have stood the 13 - 15 mpg (as it was a weekend car) if
it had a bit more perfomance than 0-60 in 8.5 - 9 secs.
Make a great engine and stick a 3 speed box on it with 1st gear going to 65 and you wreck the whole package.
before anyone cries WEIGHT the xjs comes in at about 1800 kilos, for its 299bhp. Thats better than 150 bhp tonne. However, the gearbox makes it feel
like 100bhp tonne.
Guess if you are a yank, where a big market for the v12 was, a cruser is more important than a dragster.
atb
steve
[Edited on 18/1/03 by stephen_gusterson]
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interestedparty
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| posted on 19/1/03 at 09:20 AM |
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Not much useful info come out of this thread so far, lots of mentions of manufacturers bhp figures for new engines, but the prices being suggested are
for old engines. Bit of a logic gap there.
Perhaps we should be discussing both figures is their old form, i.e. likely prices for an old engine, and likely power output for an old engine
John
As some day it may happen that a victim must be found,
I've got a little list-- I've got a little list
Of society offenders who might well be underground,
And who never would be missed-- who never would be missed!
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jollygreengiant
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| posted on 19/1/03 at 11:45 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by interestedparty
Perhaps we should be discussing both figures is their old form, i.e. likely prices for an old engine, and likely power output for an old engine
John
Ahhhhha, but then you would get new prices & new bhp figures. 
Of course with the Renault V6 & R25 gearbox you get a nice combination for a mid engine.
Enjoy.
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stephen_gusterson
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| posted on 20/1/03 at 12:06 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by interestedparty
Not much useful info come out of this thread so far, lots of mentions of manufacturers bhp figures for new engines, but the prices being suggested are
for old engines. Bit of a logic gap there.
Perhaps we should be discussing both figures is their old form, i.e. likely prices for an old engine, and likely power output for an old engine
John
Ok. In a humourous vein....
My local DIY store has brand new lawn mowers with briggs and stratton engines in em for 99 qid, that make 4 hp brand new. That would make it 25 quid
per bhp.
on the other hand, you could buy a new ferrari 360 which has about 300hp ish - and costs about 100k? Thats 350 or so quid per bhp. Probably less if
you sold the rest of the car for bits.
Its a start at both ends of the spectrum.
Trying to judge whats value for money per bhp is a bit hard.
On the other hand, a 105 bhp sierra engine, slightly shagged, making only 70bhp and smoking oil for 10 quid, makes that only 14.3 pence per HP.
THIS HAS GOT TO BE THE WAY TO GO! If you can drive the bloke down to a fiver, you can double your money to power ratio at a stroke.
how do you work out the power of an old engine?
atb
Steve
[Edited on 20/1/03 by stephen_gusterson]
[Edited on 20/1/03 by stephen_gusterson]
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Simon
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| posted on 20/1/03 at 08:39 AM |
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Jon,
In response to bike engines, and engine/road speed calculations.
You say the Isonblade is doing "under 7k revs, thats nearly 6k under red line, how many revs does a normal car have left at those speeds".
According to my calcs, my R V8 car (in theory) will do just over 2500 rpm at 70 rpm.
You're using 53.8462% of available revs at 70mph.
I'll be using 45.4545%!
Don't get me wrong, big fan of bike engines in cars - watched them in action at Brighton Speed Trials last year - most impressed.
John (Int. Pty)
I think you'll find that an engine that still works perfectly (with say 40k on the clock) will put out more power than a new engine.
It should be nicely bedded in and loose, without falling apart, if you see what I mean.
There you go, my thoughts for a Monday morning!
ATB
Simon
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interestedparty
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| posted on 20/1/03 at 11:02 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Simon
I think you'll find that an engine that still works perfectly (with say 40k on the clock) will put out more power than a new engine.
It should be nicely bedded in and loose, without falling apart, if you see what I mean.
I would say that a modern, fuel injected engine of 40k vintage could, for our purposes,be treated as new. Engines with efi do not suffer the bore wear
problems of carb'ed engines because precise fuel metering means no neat petrol washing the oil from the cylinder bores
Two things what I wonder, though, how many pintos,crossflows, rover V8's etc will fit this 40K profile?
How many people want to spend maybe a couple of years building a car around an old, unrebuilt engine? (I know lots do, but how many actually want
to?)
Another thought, virtually all 40K donors are going to have been built after 1996, and will therefore need catalysts to pass the SVA
As some day it may happen that a victim must be found,
I've got a little list-- I've got a little list
Of society offenders who might well be underground,
And who never would be missed-- who never would be missed!
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philgregson
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| posted on 20/1/03 at 12:41 PM |
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Ford 2.8 V6 Cologne, complete and running for fifty of your earth pounds.
about thirty of your earth pence per BHP me thinks.
OK it's old and agricultural but they are torquey, not too big and heavy and are cheap as chips.
Mind you what about the humble pinto - they are nearly free, so although not dripping with excess BHP must score highly on the BHP/£ stakes.
Cheers
Phil.
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interestedparty
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| posted on 20/1/03 at 01:20 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by philgregson
Ford 2.8 V6 Cologne, complete and running for fifty of your earth pounds.
about thirty of your earth pence per BHP me thinks.
OK it's old and agricultural but they are torquey, not too big and heavy and are cheap as chips.
They may not be TOO big and heavy, but they ARE big and heavy (and old). I suppose if price is the only consideration then an old, unrebuilt engine is
ideal. Will you be using the donor wheels and tyres as well? that will save a bit more money
John
As some day it may happen that a victim must be found,
I've got a little list-- I've got a little list
Of society offenders who might well be underground,
And who never would be missed-- who never would be missed!
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Jon Ison
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| posted on 20/1/03 at 02:22 PM |
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No prob Simon, i'm a big fan of the V8 too, just 4 me the bike engine is much more fun, the main point i was making is all this "you can't drive em
on road" well the bottom line is you can and very easily,
each to his own.........where all in it for the fun, enjoy!!!!!
if we all wanted/built the same it would be a tad boreing would it not...
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Simon
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| posted on 20/1/03 at 02:27 PM |
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Jon,
"if we all wanted/built the same it would be a tad boreing would it not..."
Incredibly, plus Blade/V8/whatever engines would be worth their weight in gold!!
Praise the Lord for Diversity!!
ATB
Simon
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stephen_gusterson
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| posted on 20/1/03 at 08:04 PM |
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i think that we might be losing the concept here.
Locost.
Those with a budget for nicer bigger engines might buy a kit.
Then those like me might not - want the thrill of building the car and not really care how old tech their engine is.
The lower the tech, the easier its gonna be to use.
Its not uncommon for engines to last 130k+ in a modern car, and I dont see the sience that makes 40k a benchmark for getting past it.
When I had my mazda v6 new, I was told they take at least 6k miles to make full power. It was true. Thing was, when I got it changed at 80k miles, it
was still the same. No loss of performance. This car was driven full throttle thro the gears a lot to 7k and not treated gently.
My ancient old cologne with a certified 70k on the clock, being a slow old revver, isnt gonna suffer to much from age I think.
atb
Steve
As I paid 260 for the car and it makes 130 bhp, thats 2 quid per bhp. If it blows up at 100k and its driven 3 - 5 k miles a year, thats 6 - 10 years
life - and I bet I dont have it then.
To me thats good value. Spending hundreds on webbers and cams and other stuff for a bit more power isnt my plan.
others may be different
I think basically your question is confusing. It should be what engine, with money spent on it, will give good bhp per quid. As it stands, my smoky
sierra engine for 10 quid is hard to beat.
[Edited on 20/1/03 by stephen_gusterson]
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interestedparty
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| posted on 20/1/03 at 08:43 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by stephen_gusterson
I think basically your question is confusing.
Sorry Steve, which bit do you find confusing?
"Which engine has the most bhp per £?
I've been wondering about this lately. The price would have to be for a nearly new engine or else a rebuilt one, and include all the necessary stuff
for it to run it in a Locost situation"
John
As some day it may happen that a victim must be found,
I've got a little list-- I've got a little list
Of society offenders who might well be underground,
And who never would be missed-- who never would be missed!
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johnston
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| posted on 20/1/03 at 10:05 PM |
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all this talk of old engines new engines it aint that hard or expensive to put a new gaskets and rings into an engine if youve the haynes manual or if
you wanna splash out new bearins 2
and remember manufactures bhp quotes come from blueprinted everything perfect engines built in a workshop not the ones they throw into the car which
has been the 20th off a cast and thrown together on a production line
heard somewhere take 10% off manufactures quote to get closer to the real thing
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jollygreengiant
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| posted on 21/1/03 at 08:39 AM |
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I will try & deal with these in reverse order of posting.
Rebuilding engines, yes If you've built a car from scratch then building an engine is childsplay, once you've got the necessary machining done,
about £10/journal for grinding, £10-£15/bore for rebore. (about £150+VAT so far on std 4pot). Pistons about £40each (£80each for RV8)- so total =
£310+. then you also need to Cam bearings & on some motors the Little end bearings (about £60 each plus bearings & Vat) bearings = Big end £50 + Main
£50 + Cam £30.
Total = £500.
oil pump------------------£ 15
Gaskets (ALL) ----------£ 40
cam belt/chain ---------£ 10
tensioners(min) -------£ 10
Camshaft/follower kit £200
Total £775 +vat
AND we still have out old head, ok so we are luck it is a tuned head (cost somone £200-£300 at a guess) but it still needs pressure test,clean & skim
and a quick tart up on the valve seats, so there goes another £50.
Total = £825 + VAT and you've got to build it. once built your guarantee will be your self.
Now I'm fairly certain that the prices quoted above are somewhere about the right ball park,Although I know that there are some of you out there that
might be able to say differently, the prices might also be a lot more. However If you look through the ads you will find that you could probalby pick
up an exchange recon lump from the like of Ivor Searle/ Vega for less than it has cost you just to buy the parts and you get a twelve month unlimited
mileage waranty through out Europe, so if it goes bang on the way to Lemans you SHOULD (alledgedly) be covered.
Moral you could do the work yourself but generally it aint worth it. Even when you can buy at Trade prices like me.
As regards the milage that an engine has done, you've got drivers & then you've got Dryvwerzs.
70k mileage 1 lady owner (Chrysler Lotus Sunbeam, driven regularly to the shops by 60year old 2.5 miles each way). Engine will require rebuild before
being thrashed.
70k milage company rep vehicle 3 yrs old full service history. (MG Montego Turbo). Head, engine, turbo, replaced by dealers 3 times cos the idiot
never let the oil warm up before giving it the BIG RIGHT FOOT, once he buried the tubine spindle into the head!. Spent 18 months in the body shop
having the front end replaced (three times). (chap was also convinced that a 316 bmw was a V6 engine despite being shown that it was only 4 cylinders
and in line).
Ok modern engines & oils have improved drastically but personally I would not want to be the recipient of either of the above cars/engines or anything
that might have been driven by them. other than that If you buy second hand then try & use the best of your abilities to avoid dogs. Mileage is no
reflection of engine condition.
Enjoy.
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interestedparty
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| posted on 21/1/03 at 09:11 AM |
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Good post, Jolly. Personally if I was going to the trouble of building a Locost or any other car I would not want to use an old engine without any
kind of rebuilding, but that's my opinion and I know it isn't shared.
One thing about the RV8, an engine with which I have considerable experience, there's a very good chance (probably 75%) that a rebore will not be
necessary, although by the time you've done everything else that is it will still make a fair dent in your budget.
For some time now I have been of the opinion the bike engines probably offer the best power to pound ratio, and I was hoping more of the people who
know more about BEC's than I do (nearly everybody) would contribute some facts and figures (both cost and power)
John
As some day it may happen that a victim must be found,
I've got a little list-- I've got a little list
Of society offenders who might well be underground,
And who never would be missed-- who never would be missed!
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philgregson
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| posted on 21/1/03 at 10:11 AM |
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If the original question was purely one of £ per BHP - a question to which myself and steve have given a few straight forward answers - it would be
straight forward but £ per BHP for a newer engine in good condition or a rebuilt engine is a much more vague question and much harder to answer as
condition is still an unknown for a newer engine - as Jolly GG has said - and rebuilding is an open ended option - just where do you stop.
My personal feelings on the matter are:
I am building to a budget (not the only reason I am building a locost as I want the satisfaction of doing it myself, but a major factor) and I would
sooner spend my budget on getting the chassis sorted and safe etc before I spent it on fancy engines.
I could, I have no doubt, get a far better 140-150 bhp than my cologne for a few hundred quid and certainly a lot lighter. However my 140-150 bhp is
still 140-150 however old or heavy the engine is, it develops bloody loads of torque and for a 40kg weight penalty I can spend that extra few hundred
quid I have saved on better suspension components. wheels, tyres, brakes etc and be safer and still not slow by any standards.
When the car is on the road I will certainly be looking at upgrading/modifying/rebuilding the powerplant and the whole project will be subject to
ongoing improvement and modification, I'm sure. I don't need an engine that even has tens of thousands of miles in it - I probably won't use it
that long.
By the way I have already bought a set of decent alloy wheels (second hand) and will be putting new (and decent tyres) on when the car hits the road
and it will still be faster than many locosts with more expensive, newer or better prepared lower BHP engines.
Just my humble opinion.
Cheers
Phil.
[Edited on 21/1/03 by philgregson]
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interestedparty
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| posted on 21/1/03 at 01:33 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by philgregson
If the original question was purely one of £ per BHP - a question to which myself and steve have given a few straight forward answers - it would be
straight forward but £ per BHP for a newer engine in good condition or a rebuilt engine is a much more vague question and much harder to answer as
condition is still an unknown for a newer engine - as Jolly GG has said - and rebuilding is an open ended option - just where do you stop.
The answers may have been vague but the question was precise. I have never at any stage used the expression "newER engine"
If it needs explaining ( it evidently does) by "nearly new" I mean an engine that is still within its original operating parameters, and has not
started to suffer the effects of old age. Rebuilding is not an open ended option, you stop when all the parts that were outside the original
specification have been replaced or re-conditioned to original spec
John
As some day it may happen that a victim must be found,
I've got a little list-- I've got a little list
Of society offenders who might well be underground,
And who never would be missed-- who never would be missed!
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philgregson
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| posted on 21/1/03 at 01:48 PM |
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Oops Sorry - I understand now.
The concept of 'new' (or therabouts)engine in a locost just hadn't registered with me (as it had honestly never occured to me to use anything but
an older doner engine of some sort) and I'd mistaken rebuilt for modified and mis interpreted accordingly.
I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with a nearly new or rebuilt engine if it fits with your budget - just that in my low cost build it is an
option that I wouldn't have considered and was giving £/bhp options with that bourne in mind.
Phil.
[Edited on 21/1/03 by philgregson]
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jollygreengiant
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| posted on 21/1/03 at 02:13 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by philgregson
I would sooner spend my budget on getting the chassis sorted and safe etc before I spent it on fancy engines.
[Edited on 21/1/03 by philgregson]
Indeed words of wisdom. Far better to get your car built & driving on the road with good steering and even better brakes. You can worry about engine
output later when you've got a few miles under your belt and you are confident in your car and your own abilities. One does tend to feel a bit of an
idiot if your car goes like stink but either you can't stop, or, it don't go round corners.
If you've been clever enough to build your own car then fitting a new engine or rebuilding your old one to give the required go should not be too
testing for anyone on this particular forum, cos you're all pretty level headed & sensible. Even chrisg!
Enjoy.
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stephen_gusterson
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| posted on 21/1/03 at 07:55 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by interestedparty
there's a very good chance (probably 75%) that a rebore will not be necessary, John
so, basically, you are saying that, for a rover v8, you have 3 chances in four of taking the engine to bits and adding cost for no reason? (assuming
of course bore wear is an indication of the rest of the engines condition....)
Still think that getting an engine of decent hp, that dont smoke, that has some proven milage, like I have, isnt a bad approach.
75% - if a cologne has the same ratings of chance as a V8, is good odds to me.
btw
how can you tell an engine is within its original parameters - without taking it to bits and spending a lot of time on a 25% chance?
My donor started, went along the road, and did all that good stuff.
If I find when I take it on the road its a bag of crap and I was wrong, I can spend loadsa money, or I can go to a breakers and dump another engine in
in a couple days. If that lasts year or two for 50 quid, thats good value too.
Im not gonna do that many miles in it after all - if it was a helicopter or plane (safety) or I was gonna race it and needed max bhp, I can
understand the take it to bits and worry if you dont concept.
when i rebuilt my metro turbo engine 9 years ago it cost 500 quid just for machining, and parts. The crank and cam wasnt even in that cost cos they
were ok.
As far as getting a 'recon' engine from a engine dealer, beware. There are those - heathrow engine centre for one - that does not actually do that
much work on them. Read the small print. The engines are imported, or from crashed cars and come with a year warranty IF THE ENGINE IS SERVICED BY
THEM. Not much of a deal, more a lucky dip.
atb
steve
[Edited on 21/1/03 by stephen_gusterson]
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Stu16v
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| posted on 21/1/03 at 08:02 PM |
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quote:
i think that we might be losing the concept here.
Locost.
Steve, I which mine was! With the money I have spent/will be spending on my Locost, I could probably afford to buy a 'pukka' kit.
I didnt, for two reasons. Firstly I wouldnt have built my own car, it would of been somebody elses creation that I have merely bolted together (that
sounds easy dont it?). And secondly, to get the same spec car that I will end up with it would probably cost twice as much with a 'brand' name. So
in effect mine is still Locost, but against different parameters.
Another issue that is connected is the cost of actually installing the chosen engine, which can easily be forgotten about when thinking bhp/pound. My
VX 16v was actually free once I had broke the rest of the car up and sold the bits and pieces. But it has still cost quite a bit of money to install,
some of the stuff could be considered luxurys, but money nonetheless. To put the engine into my car I have bought a bellhousing conversion (approx 200
quid), a lowered sump (165 quid, a lot more expensive now), and Weber 45's, manifold, and igniton system S/H (500 quid). Then there is the exhaust
manifold S/H (70 quid). So I have spent 935 quid just to hear a 'free' engine run. To compare I have recently negotiated buying a complete third
party write off bike for 500 quid, low mileage, and one owner from new. Apparently the engine is good for 140+bhp, and is ready to run. The only extra
costs over and above buying this would be a sprocket to prop adapter, and maybe the exhaust manifold (although they are a lot easier to modify to fit
compared to most car systems). Oh yeah, and a reverse system if you cant be arsed to push it backwards. I do appreciate this example does not apply to
all car or bike engines, but realistically I do wish I had now put a bike engine in my Locost. It *may* of been on the road by now.....
Dont just build it.....make it!
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stephen_gusterson
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| posted on 21/1/03 at 08:07 PM |
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quote:
Steve, I which mine was! With the money I have spent/will be spending on my Locost, I could probably afford to buy a 'pukka' kit.
I didnt, for two reasons. Firstly I wouldnt have built my own car, it would of been somebody elses creation that I have merely bolted together
exactly my reasoning here.
Now, knowing what jap bike spares cost, are you gonna take that chance or rebuild the bike engine and trash another few hundred quid.........or just
try it out first......
atb
steve
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interestedparty
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| posted on 21/1/03 at 08:18 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by stephen_gusterson
so, basically, you are saying that, for a rover v8, you have 3 chances in four of taking the engine to bits and adding cost for no reason? (assuming
of course bore
wear is an indication of the rest of the engines condition....)
If that had been what I was saying then I would have said exactly that, wouldn't I, but I didn't. I'm not saying anything of the sort.
Take RV8 for instance-
Take to pieces (no big deal, especially when the engine is out of the car. Take the block and crank to your local engine machinists. Have the bore
checked and the crank journals checked.
The point about maybe not needing a rebore, is- no rebore, no new pistons, big saving, only hone and new rings.
On a Rover you would automatically have the cam bearings replaced so you need to take the block in anyway. If the crank journals look clean and shiny
then you may not need a regrind bit you will obviously need new bearings seals and gaskets which you can buy at the engine shop, as well as have the
bores honed and the block hot tanked
You might choose to leave the heads as they are because they are much easier to change later if needed (no need to take the engine out)
On any RV8 you should fit a new (uprated if wished) cam and new followers.
I rebuilt a Ford V6 (Essex) to install in a Dutton I built years ago. I didn't have everything done, just the essentials. I was working to a very
tight budget but it would not have occured to me to install the donor engine without so muich as a look inside and replacing the bearings and gaskets
as a bare minimum
John
As some day it may happen that a victim must be found,
I've got a little list-- I've got a little list
Of society offenders who might well be underground,
And who never would be missed-- who never would be missed!
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jollygreengiant
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| posted on 21/1/03 at 08:19 PM |
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Sorry steve but I did name 2 companies & niether of them are near or have anything to do with HEATHROW. They both deal Nationwide with companies of
repute and their technical back up is (IMO) superb. Also AFAIAA They back up their guarantees & their Engines come with ALL the gaskets Necessary to
fit.
Oh and usually next day delivery as well.
Enjoy.
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johnston
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| posted on 21/1/03 at 08:52 PM |
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jolly i was talkin bout just buildin to a standerd spec nothin 2 fancy just rings bearings and gaskets last i priced a cam for a x flow it was 80+vat
and a chain wit tensioner was 10 +vat and a full set of gaskets was less than 20+vat
if your tuning it as you go then i agree go buy 1 ready built i sat and priced stuff worked out a fiver cheaper than buying one of the shelf
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