david walker
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| posted on 2/4/04 at 06:43 PM |
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My garage fixes over a hundred K Series head gaskets per year. We have less than one subsequent failure per year, so are doing something right.
Failures will occur from as low as 18000 miles. Others do more than 120,000 miles.
The 1100, 1400, 1600 and 1800 all use the same gasket. The 2.5 now uses a mls gasket. They are all IMO excellent engines if maintained OK (leaks,
water pumps etc dealt with as discussed).
The worst for failure is the 1600, the best the 1100. The 1600 has an additional problem of porous liners. Probably one in 6 that have the "head
gasket" problem have actually got porous liners. The 1400 has this problem to a much lesser degree, the others hardly at all.
There is no reason why a previously overheated K series engine cannot be repaired properly.
Thermostats now have a jiggle pin fitted to facilitate bleeding. Before they did we always drilled a single 1/8" hole. Drill 3 off, 5mm holes
and you may as well throw away the thermostat!
The only engine to suffer more head gasket failures (on a pro-rata basis) is the 1200 Fiat (as per Punto).
I think the T series (16v Sherpa) is crap but that's just an opinion. I could also write a book about mis-diagnosis of faults by AA men, but
that's another story.
Dave Walker, Race Engine Services - 07957 454659 or 01636 671277
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DEAN C.
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| posted on 2/4/04 at 09:31 PM |
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Just in case anyone didn't realise(stephen!)I am also the afforementioned scrappy dealer that specialised in Rovers on TOL.
Before anyone starts mentioning my credentials I am also a qualified engineer.
I currently run a large workshop maintaining a 75 vehicle municipal fleet for a major vehicle manufacturer,as well as repairs for most of the councils
in the country from Derby up to the north of scotland.
What I am trying to say is,I do have a good background knowledge of all types of engines and workshop repairs.
Most mechanics that I know or speak to just cringe when anyone mentions K series engines.I cant think of any mechanics that I know that would
entertain owning a K series car!
I have myself run Rover 216 (honda) cars
and 220 gti's ,both great cars.
I have also run an early 214 bought as write off,I sold the engine within a few weeks as it was worth as much as the car!(this was when I had the
parts business).I'm sorry to anyone that likes the Kseries but basically there is not enough metal in the engine to absorb heat,any slightly
high temps seem to cook the engine very quickly.They are so light because when you strip them down the block is virtually hollow,superb for weight but
not very good for heat dissipation.
As someone else mentioned though Rover rads are usually falling apart at a few year old as they are built a little bit on the fragile side,this
doesn't help the reliability factor either.
I would say though if anyone comes across a virtually new engine then I could see it making a decent conversion,how many locosts will do 60,000 miles?
Once I've finished a project why do I start another?
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stephen_gusterson
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| posted on 2/4/04 at 10:22 PM |
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Nope! I didnt Dean!
Even tried to find your original response on here when it was discussed before but bummed out.
atb
steve
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Mark Allanson
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| posted on 2/4/04 at 10:28 PM |
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Concur with the Fiat Punto head problem, just done a gasket and a 10 thou skim on mine, 3 years old and less than 30K miles
If you can keep you head, whilst all others around you are losing theirs, you are not fully aware of the situation
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Fatboy Dave
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| posted on 4/4/04 at 10:04 PM |
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A bit late, as I rarely keep up to date with this forum any more 
T16. Heavy yes, not overly though. Quite comparable to a Pinto. Quite tough if left alone too. Just be careful with the headgaskets, as everyone
knows, they leak oil. Klingers sort this, but only when you remember to remove the little oilway restrictor in the oilway that is the source of the
leak 
Mounts wise, not that unconventional? Why is everyone scared of looking for alternatives? There are lands on the block where traditional RWD engine
mounts used to live, used on the van and MPI Discovery. Some FWD cars even have them drilled and tapped, some blocks you have to drill yourself.
Otherwise, just mod the front of the chassis with a removeable bar to pick up on the cambelt cover end mount, one for the stabiliser in the sump, and
the 'rear' mount, which is now the offside...
You also need a RWD Sherpa sump too, or cut and chut the Rover one (careful, as some had tin sumps, some had aluminium).
M series internals are strong, and on a turbo engine, can be mixed with Monty turbo pistons to create a tough shortblock capable of some high boost
levels.
The LT boxes have an off the shelf bellhousing, as I imparted nearly two years ago on here, along with other installation experiances BUT! There is a
Ford alternative, which I am researching... 
Ratios. The LT77 only has one set of ratios, for 2000/2300/2600 and 3500. The diesel is obviously different. The fifth gear ratio changed in 83,
moving from 0.83 to 0.77:1, giving better, more relaxed cruising (or more top speed ).
Hope this helps some folks 
Dave
Stop the planet, I want to get off
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Simon
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| posted on 4/4/04 at 11:14 PM |
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Right, I've said it before, so I'll say it again!
We had Rover 200BRM and the gasket went at a 1000 miles. So what. It got repaired (under warranty) and didn't break again.
As for AA. They came to sort out our Ford Crapi when it wouldn't start, and he knocked the oil pressure warning light wire from the switch. 3
weeks later it occured to me I hadn't put any oil in for a couple of weeks (was a regular requirement) - Bone Dry. Muppets
We now have a crap french car - squeaks/rattles/broken engine mountings/ poor fuel consumption/sounds like a diesel/crap engine (bought new 2
years/12000 miles ago), and roll on it's third anniversary, when I'll be paying a visit to my local MG Rover dealer to replace it. NEVER
going to buy a foreign car again.
Foreign crap. Buy British (except bikes (cos Triumph don't do a 200mph bike yet)
Dean C (this isn't a dig at you but)
Well - I have a pass to Lloyd's of London and am qualifed to place insurance business in that market. I work in an Art Foundry
All those that slate Rover have probably never had one so can stop moaning about the quality. They are fine. All german and italian cars I've
owned have been scrapped. The 3 (proper) Mini, 2 SD1 V8's/827 Vitesse and 200 BRM have all been great.
ZT260 for me in March 05
ATB
Simon
ATB
[Edited on 4/4/04 by Simon]
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Fatboy Dave
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| posted on 5/4/04 at 06:18 PM |
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Yay!
Someone else that will actually stick up for a malinged marque 
Sick to death of people who knock Rover because it's fashionable. 
Never mind, just means cheaper cars and bits for the rest of us
Dave
Stop the planet, I want to get off
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liam.mccaffrey
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| posted on 5/4/04 at 10:23 PM |
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I am going to put the 1600 kseries in my wagon,
light, powerful, free(in my case) tunable
ok so head gasket problem, but I plan to look after it when it goes in, and i will be pleased if it goes to 60000 miles!!!
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stephen_gusterson
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| posted on 5/4/04 at 10:59 PM |
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I bought british for years. Either a proper british marque or summat that was 'psuedo british' or built in UK.
I think I qualify to knock cos ive had
austin maestro
jaguar xj-s
rover 600 (company car)
rover 800 (company car)
mini clubman
hilman imp
hillman hunter
triumph dolomite sprint.
metro city
metro turbo
mini
austin ambassador
austin princess
austin montego (company car)
and the psuedos
fiesta mk1
fiesta mk2 (x2) (one was company car)
fiesta mk3
ford cortina mk5 (company car)
vauxhall cavalier mk2 (company car)
ford cortina mk1
Seirra 1.8 estate (company car)
so I cant exactly be called non patriotic.
I loved the F reg 800 when it was a year old when I had it as a co car. However, it went to the scrappy at 4 years old cos the flywheel fell off and
caused so much crank damage the engine was shagged and the car depreciated to such an extent it wasnt worth repairing.
Id love to see rover succeed - especially after all the money thats been pumped into it by us in the leyland days.
BUT - rover get slagged where slagging is due.
The cars are way too old.
what the frig is with the rover 75 - a retro car made to look like a boy racer.
and what the f^&k is the streetwise.
And the final insult - an indian built car to replace metro.
this is clearly a struggling company figting to survive by relaunching improbable versions of 10 year old cars.
I broke the brit made rule 7 years ago when I bought mazda, and my current beemer.
My wifes current car is a megane 1.6 vvti. loade dwith extras for less than 12k and not a thing wrong with it - its just a year old. We owned a megane
for 4 years previous, and again, no probs.
In a competitive market, rover are sadly in the relegation zone.
As a result of the decayed UK motor industy my later cars are
Renault magane
Renault megane (new type)
Mazda 323 zxi V6
BMW 318se
and shortly BMW 320d toring
atb
steve
[Edited on 6/4/04 by stephen_gusterson]
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britishtrident
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| posted on 7/4/04 at 11:03 AM |
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I used to hate the way Rover got slagged for the crap Honda V6 2.5 --- standard advice from pub pundits " was buy the four cylinder its made by
Honda" (sic)
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ned
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| posted on 7/4/04 at 11:15 AM |
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back to the original question of the thread (very late here, i know) but didn't lolocost have a bellhousing made for the type 9 ford box as they
offered their kit with the t series turbo engine at one point. might be worth a phone call..
Ned.
beware, I've got yellow skin
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timf
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| posted on 7/4/04 at 11:18 AM |
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lolocost use an adaptor plate to mate a t series with mt75
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britishtrident
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| posted on 7/4/04 at 06:53 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by timf
lolocost use an adaptor plate to mate a t series with mt75
I think is an engine backplate rather than an adaptor -- the 2 litre Rover engine like its B series ancestor has steel plate to adapt it to various
gearboxes.
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DEAN C.
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| posted on 7/4/04 at 09:05 PM |
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Hey !!! Fatboy Dave!
I LOVE rovers and all british cars,and bikes,I just dont like K series!
But if people such as Liam get their hands on a cheap engine good luck to them,cos all the figures add up!
I've only just sold my Discovery Which we've had from new,and not long before that our 22o gti which I absolutely loved to bits.As I have
have said before I've owned a couple of 216 gti's as well.
I've owned 3 mgb's one of which I still own after seventeen years,one MG midget,aPerkins engined Range rover,Triumph 2500,Land Rovers
Series 2/3 and 90/110 models lots of each,I've had a Leyland roadrunner7.5 tonner and a couple of british bikes.
Yes I've also had a few foreign cars as well,Datsun 240z,celica 2.0,porsche 924(dont laugh),but basically I like my british vehicles.
What do I drive now? my first foreign car for a few years actually,a 2000 model SAAB 93 turbo airflow coupe' which I really like driving before
you all start taking the piss!
Once I've finished a project why do I start another?
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Fatboy Dave
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| posted on 7/4/04 at 09:44 PM |
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Ahhh, just gets right on my tits, the way, as Trident puts it, the pub pundits get on the case.
Fact is, I've had the pleasure of a T16 turbo powered car, and had the pleasure of leaving my mates Dax Rush behind at the lights
Dave
Stop the planet, I want to get off
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stephen_gusterson
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| posted on 7/4/04 at 10:32 PM |
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the pleasure of a blown gasket seems almost a certainty, if you have K series car for long.
There is too much evidence to argue much of a case to the opposite.
ANd at the end of the day, this whole site is a pub. How many authorative people are on here anyway....... its personal experience.
See my engine poll for more details.
atb
steve
quote:
Originally posted by Fatboy Dave
Ahhh, just gets right on my tits, the way, as Trident puts it, the pub pundits get on the case.
Fact is, I've had the pleasure of a T16 turbo powered car, and had the pleasure of leaving my mates Dax Rush behind at the lights
[Edited on 7/4/04 by stephen_gusterson]
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NS Dev
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| posted on 7/4/04 at 11:11 PM |
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why isn't "flipping the diff over" really on Britishtrident?
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britishtrident
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| posted on 8/4/04 at 09:13 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by NS Dev
why isn't "flipping the diff over" really on Britishtrident?
If you look at a hypoid diff you will see the input shaft id below the axle centre line, flip it over and the propshaft and diff nose move up 100 -
125 mm, the other lesser concern is lubrication.
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Spyderman
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| posted on 9/4/04 at 11:37 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by stephen_gusterson
the pleasure of a blown gasket seems almost a certainty, if you have K series car for long.
There is too much evidence to argue much of a case to the opposite.
steve
[Edited on 7/4/04 by stephen_gusterson]
It is quotes like that that annoy people!
The K-series is no more prone to head gasket blowing than any other highly stressed engine. Toyota's are just as prone as Rovers to blow their
headgasket, but you don't preach about those!
I have owned two Toyota's that have had the head gasket blow, but put that down to previous use, just like with any car. If I use and abuse my
cars I expect to pay the consequencies somewhere along the line!
Rovers get a lot of stick because there are more of them here in the UK than most other makes.
I know of more Zetec engine owners that have had headgasket problems than K-series and I know a lot of Rover owners (problem with being old ).
And yes I had a K-series Metro, and thought the engine was superb. Would have another Rover tomorrow if they made one with enough seats!
Pintos and Crossflows are good engines because they are made from the old school principles of over engineering. As soon as you get them into the same
output league as modern engines they become just as delicate.
Rover V8 is good example of this. In basic guise this engine will go on forever as it is under stressed. Tune it up and it's life is reduced. A
good engine still though.
Terry
[Edited on 9/4/04 by Spyderman]
Spyderman
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Fatboy Dave
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| posted on 9/4/04 at 12:11 PM |
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quote:
There is too much evidence to argue much of a case to the opposite.
I must be one of the lucky few who hasn't had a problem then. 200k miles on the K series engines and no problems yet.
It's all down to how mr and mrs suburbia care for their cars. When was the last time you saw a ten year old, £500 Rover 214 with 90k miles go
for a full service? Answer, rarely. When do the gaskets blow? You guessed it...
It's all down to how you drive it and look after it IMHO...
Dave
Stop the planet, I want to get off
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stephen_gusterson
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| posted on 9/4/04 at 04:24 PM |
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Dave - I agree with you. I think I mentioned earlier that older cars dont get serviced.
And if a locost uses a K engine, where will it come from ....... an older car with potentially dodgy service history.
Another engine thats supposed to be crap is the DOHC 2.0 ford. I know two people that have them , no probs. I know another with a K and its blown.
We have in this thread two posts, one from an engine specialist, and another from a guy that sold on reclaimed K engines. Both are not positive
affirmations of the engines integrity.
Just do a google for K series gasket failure - 16,000 hits come up
ford DOHC gasket failure gets just 918, and there have been a fair few DOHC haters on here.
ford pinto gasket failure gets just 342
ford cologne gasket failure gets just 109
The K might be a sweet engine, but on balance the outlook still isnt good.
And we still dont have a report of anyone on this board actually having one in their car right now....
atb
steve
[Edited on 9/4/04 by stephen_gusterson]
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Fatboy Dave
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| posted on 9/4/04 at 05:02 PM |
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It's very true.
I guess some engines are just more prone to it.
You also have to think economies of scale. The K series is used in *everything*, just like the Pinto was. Chances are, enough have gone bang that
people don't think twice about it.
I don't deny, that they do have a reputation for it, just like Rover V8s turn into sludge monsters when you don't change the oil, and
Zetecs turn into tractors when the valves stick. It's just a shame a perfectly decent engine, that packs a fair punch for its size and weight
can be so maligned because of a not entirely undue reputation.
Hey ho :-|
Dave
Stop the planet, I want to get off
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MikeR
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| posted on 9/4/04 at 06:34 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by stephen_gusterson
Just do a google for K series gasket failure - 16,000 hits come up
ford DOHC gasket failure gets just 918, and there have been a fair few DOHC haters on here.
ford pinto gasket failure gets just 342
ford cologne gasket failure gets just 109
The K might be a sweet engine, but on balance the outlook still isnt good.
[Edited on 9/4/04 by stephen_gusterson]
Hold on, lets do a fair comparison, if you're going to quote numbers you've got to quote the total number of installations. If i mate a
million engines and 10,000 blow could you compare that to someone who makes 10 engine and 1 blows ????
Also you've got to consider Rover still make the 'k'. The ford based engines haven't been made for 12+ years. Now look at
owner demographics. Someone who owns a 12 year old car is less likely to be affulent than someone who owns a new car, follow that through to internet
usage (internet is more popular with affulent people) and you'll get less posts on "i've blown my DOHC head gasket".
Its basically a great quote Steven but totally biased and doesn't stand up to any statistical analysis.
Right, i'll crawl back under my rock.
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stephen_gusterson
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| posted on 9/4/04 at 07:02 PM |
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thats a fair point mike.....
However....
the rover was used in stuff like metros, 200 series, 400 series, lotus, MG's caterham, - any others?
Rovers dont tend to sell much outside of the UK. The volumes wont be ballistic, but they will be high. There are few rovers in france or germany -
loadsa fords tho.
If you take the Pinto, for example, that has been installed in loads of different fords, and was in use at least as long or longer than the K series.
Its also been used in American cars - it came from there. So Google would also have included Pinto CAR gasket failures.
Taking into account the wider continental appeal of ford, I cant see the numbers being that different.
On the bias side, recent K publicity would have increased the hit count for K's - but I didnt read all 16,000 to check.
atb
steve
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david walker
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| posted on 10/4/04 at 07:18 AM |
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The failure per hundred cars argument is a good one. But nevertheless, and based upon experience of fixing cars, then the K series is the worst,
whichever you look at it. The Fiats are close though. There are probably more Zetecs on the road than K series, and their rate of failure is
considerably less. The DOHC has become a problem - through age. Wherever you have an aluminium head on an iron block you are going to get a problem
eventually - no matter how you have it serviced. Pretty well any Vauxhall over 12 years old will have (or be about to have) a head gasket problem.
I have not particularly found Toyotas to be a problem - but then few Jap cars are.
I don't fully understand the lack of servicing argument. Certainly I have had lots of Rover head gasket failures at less than 30,000 miles. I
think the poor thermostat arrangement, lack of material in the engine block (particularly the post 96 engines) and a head gasket reliant on silicon
beading has a lot to do with it.
A FM rep (Payen Gaskets - who manufacture the OE gasket) told me a couple of weeks ago that they are working on a new MLS gasket for the engine. The
V6 has already gone this way.
Dave Walker, Race Engine Services - 07957 454659 or 01636 671277
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