slim Jim
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| posted on 17/7/07 at 12:30 PM |
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Pinto Breather
I am suffering a few breathing probelms on my pinto engine. I have set up a pipe to a catch tank with a filter on it but wondered if i should be
running one of the intended breather devices. I have had a look on Burton's website and can only find one for a CVH engine.
Can anyone tell me if this is suitable for a pinto.
Cheers James
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mookaloid
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| posted on 17/7/07 at 01:30 PM |
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I wouldn't use that.
google for Dave Andrews and his excellent description of the pinto breather system.
Cheers
mark
"That thing you're thinking - it wont be that."
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Testingone
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| posted on 17/7/07 at 04:24 PM |
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I wouldnt think that one is suitable.If you do a search on burtons site for fp631 thats one you can use(filler cap with breather outlet) I also used a
fp280 again from burtons(this replaces the standard block breather) and run a pipe from each to a catch tank.
Hope this helps Paul.
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DarrenW
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| posted on 17/7/07 at 08:47 PM |
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I used that CVH one in the std oil trap and it worked ish but not fantastic.
Good breathing is a nightmare. Im on my 5th or 6th iteration so far and not quite there.
What is your set up so far.
Edit to add - that pic is a CVH crankcase breather and not a ventilated oil filler cap. Far cheaper in Halfords.
[Edited on 17/7/07 by DarrenW]
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slim Jim
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| posted on 18/7/07 at 07:56 AM |
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At the moment I have the oil filer cap blocked off and a hose coming from the breather on the side of the block( under the carbs) going into a can
which has a breather filter sticking out.
With this I still appear to be getting oil coming out fo the dip stick though.
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40inches
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| posted on 18/7/07 at 08:49 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by slim Jim
At the moment I have the oil filer cap blocked off and a hose coming from the breather on the side of the block( under the carbs) going into a can
which has a breather filter sticking out.
With this I still appear to be getting oil coming out fo the dip stick though.
Had this problem with my Pinto,took the valve innards out(the one below the carbs) problem solved
Another thought,some people have this problem when they shorten the sump and then shorten the dipstick as well causes oil to pee out of every
orifice at high revs.
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DarrenW
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| posted on 18/7/07 at 08:55 AM |
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ive been pulling my hair out over this for ages so i hope i dont bless you with bad fortune by replying
My set up is as follows;
1. Rocker cover - totally standard, breather cap fitted, 12mm pipe to catch tank.
2. Crankcase - PCV junked. Std sierra oil seperator (approx 40mm diameter, grommet in top) still in place. Ive also placed Cortina trap on top of it
(i didnt realise sierra one was removable and cortine would replace it). 12mm pipe from oil trap running vertically to a TEE piece from the rocker
vent pipe.
3. catch tank. Mine is a basic ali container. 2 inlets enter from the sides (near the top) and one pipe is in the top vertically. Ive connected a
breather filter to the top one. 12mm pipes fit over theses connections but the ID is probs around 8mm. After a while the tank gets some gunk in it
(like vapour filled brown oil) and then starts blowing out of the breather filter and makes a mess. My thought is that the inlet pipe ID's are a
little small and doesnt drop the pressure enough.
Next mods - remove sierra trap and fit cortina one dirctly into crankcase. Pipe from this direct to catch tank (ie not into the TEE). Increase the ID
of the exit pipe (logic says 2x 8mm inlets should need more than one 8mm breather outlet).
Edit / correction - i drilled out the 8mm ID to ID 11mm so closer to the bore of the pipe on all 3.
If this doesnt work im running out of ideas.
I have heard of people making another connection from base of catch tank back to the sump. Im still not fully convinced this is a good idea after
seeing the state of the residue in the tank, but the tank does condense hot oil and vapours onto the cold ali which is where some o fthe water will
come from, so maybe a tap straight back to sump may not result in the oil being so crappy. Also when engine is running at correct temperature any
water vapours etc are naturally boiled off (hence why it is not a good idea to over cool engines).
Also looking for thoughts and inspiration from others.
Only other thing i can think of is catch tank redesign (inlets feeding lower into the tank and some foam baffle / trap material etc). It would be
easier to fit new catch tank though.
[Edited on 18/7/07 by DarrenW]
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DarrenW
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| posted on 18/7/07 at 08:58 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by 40inches
quote:
Originally posted by slim Jim
At the moment I have the oil filer cap blocked off and a hose coming from the breather on the side of the block( under the carbs) going into a can
which has a breather filter sticking out.
With this I still appear to be getting oil coming out fo the dip stick though.
Had this problem with my Pinto,took the valve innards out(the one below the carbs) problem solved
Another thought,some people have this problem when they shorten the sump and then shorten the dipstick as well causes oil to pee out of every
orifice at high revs.
Oh yes - this is crucial. i assumed you may have modded the PCV valve or replaced it already. You dont want the spring and plunger in there if piping
to catch tank instead of manifold (no positive pressure at low revs to open it up and allow crankcase pressure to be vented).
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Andy D
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| posted on 18/7/07 at 10:23 AM |
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Well, I think I've just about cracked it on my car. I'm using a Cortina block breather, pipe loops up as high as possible on the bulkhead
before dropping down to the catchtank. Another pipe exits the rear of the cam cover, and is tee'd into the crankcase pipe where it drops down to
the tank. Catch tank just has an open pipe from the top to breathe.
Done loads of trackdays, and usually get about a pint dumped into the tank, then it stops. So at my last one, (Cadwell Monday) I only filled the
oil to the mid point on the dipstick, thrashed the nuts off the car all day, and lo and behold, only a spoonfull of fluid in the catchtank. 
I think if the sump is not baffled, particularly on a trackday, or under heavy braking, the oil gets whipped up by the crank, and then blown out of
the breather.
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DarrenW
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| posted on 18/7/07 at 10:42 AM |
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Here is the article Mooky referes to
http://members.aol.com/sarandrews/wateroil.htm
Thanks for the info Andrew. Im tempted to cut a largish hole in the top of my catch tank and just push the pipes into it and let them vent up the
sides!!
I wonder if my trip up and down sutton bank yesterday moved some oil about?? Probs not.
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Andy D
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| posted on 18/7/07 at 10:47 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DarrenW
Here is the article Mooky referes to
http://members.aol.com/sarandrews/wateroil.htm
Thanks for the info Andrew. Im tempted to cut a largish hole in the top of my catch tank and just push the pipes into it and let them vent up the
sides!!
I wonder if my trip up and down sutton bank yesterday moved some oil about?? Probs not.
What you're after is no back pressure in the catchtank. Not sure why it's nessesarry to fit a breather filter to the exit of the tank. It
will clog with gunk, and cease to be a breather, if you see what i mean..
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DarrenW
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| posted on 18/7/07 at 11:21 AM |
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That is what i have concluded so far as well. The breather filter does clog fairly quickly. I also think pressure is being held in the tank by virtue
of the fact there are 2 inlets and one out all at the same diameter.
Only reason i fitted a filter is to act as a bit of a trap but i think it is having a negative effect. Ine thought i had was to drill the exit pipe
out and leave a larger hole just larger that the surface area of the 2 inlets. Only prob on mi tank is the inlets dont enter and then go low in the
tank and the exit hole is inline withe inlets. On the website link it suggests the inlets should exit low on the inside of the tank and some foam
baffle should be added. I can see the logic in this.
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slim Jim
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| posted on 18/7/07 at 09:05 PM |
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Thanks for all the advice guys - quite a bit for me to work with there! I have ordered a filler cap with a breather take off and I best check out the
PCV valve too!
Cheers James
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DarrenW
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| posted on 19/7/07 at 09:29 AM |
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I did some work on catch tank last night and just taken some pics of my install at the mo -might help.
Pic 1 is the Cortina oil trap. I have made a mistake by fitting it on top of the sierra trap. Next job is to remove std sierra bit and fit cortina bit
direct to crankcase.
 
Rescued attachment 19072007141.jpg
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DarrenW
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| posted on 19/7/07 at 09:31 AM |
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pic 2 is current pipework. You can now see that ive TEE'd the crankcase vent pipe into pipe from oil filler cap. Next mod is to run oil filler
cap and crankcase pipe seperately to catch tank (Ive had it like this before but concerned that single catch tank exhaust outlet was too small =
pressure).
 
Rescued attachment 19072007140.jpg
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DarrenW
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| posted on 19/7/07 at 09:35 AM |
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Pic 3 is catch tank after last nights mods. Ive fitted new baffle inside. (not made a new top yet as i want to observe what happens over a few
miles).
before the inlets only protruded a few mm's. The outlet was vertical in top plate but only 40 or 50 mm away - any vapours entering could be
forced out of vent before they had chance to condense.
What i have now is something not too dissimilar to Andy D's set up.
I may get my head around fitting a drain from catch tank to engine next if i still get a build up of oil. This is an emotive subject and not supported
by some so doesnt need much discussion.
 
Rescued attachment 19072007139.jpg
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Andy D
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| posted on 19/7/07 at 12:13 PM |
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Darren, that's exactly the set up (minus the Sierra valve thingy) I had on my car originally. Breather pipe from the oil cap included. It should
work fine on the road.
It was when I ventured onto a race track the oil started dumping into the catchtank, but as I say running at a slightly lower oil level seems to have
solved that problem. Better sump baffling is probably the real answer, I think.
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DarrenW
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| posted on 19/7/07 at 03:04 PM |
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I reckon you are right about sump design Andrew. maybe you will have the chance to make some improvements to yours soon.
I went for a drive at lunchtime. Came back after 25 miles round trip to find 1/5 litre of oil in the catch tank!!
So ive made some further adjustments. Job 1 i removed the Sierra oil trap. I little stiff to get out but out it came with some bats from the pursuader
 
Rescued attachment 19072007144.jpg
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DarrenW
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| posted on 19/7/07 at 03:06 PM |
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Fitted cotina trap directly into the crankcase hole. I found that when installed it wrongly before i had pushed the pipe in too far - it was very
close to the bottom which is not good. Also i suspectthe angle wasnt good (it was pushed forward by the manifold) which would help to keep the end of
the pipe submerged in oil - again not good. Now it looks better and ipe is just entered into the grommet - no further.
 
Rescued attachment 19072007141.jpg
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DarrenW
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| posted on 19/7/07 at 03:07 PM |
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oops - wrong pic. This is better!!
 
Rescued attachment 19072007143.jpg
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DarrenW
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| posted on 19/7/07 at 03:08 PM |
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And here is the pipework to catch tank. No more Tee.
Note the pipe from oil trap is routed quite high before looping back to catch tank.
Top of tank will have a cover eventually but ill leave it open for a while so i can make observations.
Again - apologies if im sidetracking or hijacking the thread - just hoping some detail and development notes will help.
[Edited on 19/7/07 by DarrenW]
 
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DarrenW
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| posted on 20/7/07 at 02:20 PM |
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Not much success last night - still got some oil blowing into tank after a few miles.
Pipe now fitted from base of catch tank back to sump - lets see how that goes. Ive more or less got the same set up as Mookaloid now.
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jacko
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| posted on 20/7/07 at 05:59 PM |
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Hi i dont under stand why you all have this problem
All i have done is
1 remove the one way valve in the sump[ block side ]
2 blocked the oil filler cap
3 fitted a 10mm bore pipe from were the one way valve use to be fitted to a old WD 40 tin the pipe goes two thirds in to it and i have drilled 6
3mm holes around the top rim .
I have had No problems at all doing it this way and the car gets a lot off stick
Graham
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DarrenW
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| posted on 20/7/07 at 08:42 PM |
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I know Graham, i dont understand it either. The system ive rigged up is at least as good as that. Only noticable difference is im also venting the oil
filler cap to the tank as well. After that it could be down to oil level and sump baffles.
It seems some engines vent a lot and others hardly any. Dash is showing excellent oil pressure (sits at 70 ish psi all the time, can rise when i give
it some stick), no signs of burning oil, engine seems very healthy.
Could compression ration have a say in it? I dont know what mine is but i had 40thou skimmed off the head when it was rebuilt.
'Tis a strange one.
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jacko
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| posted on 21/7/07 at 08:46 AM |
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Darren i had 1mm planed off the head .
The other thing i have done is when i altered my sump i put the extra tank at the front + a s/steel hinge between the old part and the new part so oil
would not swill forward on braking but will flow to the back where the oil pick up pipe is i hope this makes sense
Graham
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