spegru
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| posted on 7/11/24 at 09:38 PM |
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AJ30 / Duratec v6 - ECU setup details
I know there are a number of threads on this subject but so far Ive not been able to get my AJ30 running properly:
I'm using a MotorSport Electronics ME360 ECU
First Question - Trigger Offset: THE ECU needs to know what angle the crank shaft sensor is at and it seems that the AJ30's is not at TDC. Nor
are there any markings on the front pulley.
So I went through the following rigmarole:
a) Mark the pulley with tippex to get distance angles using my calculations based on its circumference and
b) discovered actual TDC using a screwdriver down the spark plug hole.
c) I then managed to get a timing light working (even though there are no plug leads) to find the trigger point.
According to all that, it appears that the trigger is 302 degrees after TDC which is of course 58 degrees before TDC.
I cant be all that much out because the engine does run - albeit extremely roughly
I write all the above because in spite of researching the forum here I was surprised not to be able to find this crucial figure and so I do wonder if
Ive somehow got something wrong?
Check out Invader Garage on Youtube
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3C55qk-tbKc0WjmxGqFoXg
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40inches
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| posted on 8/11/24 at 12:20 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by spegru
I know there are a number of threads on this subject but so far Ive not been able to get my AJ30 running properly:
I'm using a MotorSport Electronics ME360 ECU
First Question - Trigger Offset: THE ECU needs to know what angle the crank shaft sensor is at and it seems that the AJ30's is not at TDC. Nor
are there any markings on the front pulley.
Looks like it is 50 degrees btdc
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spegru
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| posted on 8/11/24 at 02:30 PM |
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Interesting.
I suppose this is MegaSquirt/Jolt? I also assume you are using the built in sensor, not an external sensor/wheel?
This Setting in the ME360 MEITE setup software is degrees after TDC so my 302 figure corresponds to 58deg BTDC, which is 8 degrees different to your
figure.
That may not matter - if it's all taken care of in the timing tables, which presumably could be 8 degrees different
On the other hand, MSE have downloaded an initial timing setup to me that may or may not use that same offset (they didnt have a figure available for
the AJ30)
I wonder what would happen if I change it to 310?
hmm thanks
[Edited on 8/11/24 by spegru]
Check out Invader Garage on Youtube
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3C55qk-tbKc0WjmxGqFoXg
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MikeR
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| posted on 8/11/24 at 03:43 PM |
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Are you both triggering on the same tooth edge - the teeth edges are 10 degrees apart so you could in reality be 2 degrees different.
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spegru
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| posted on 8/11/24 at 06:43 PM |
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Oh dear I actually dont know the answer to that important question.
As much as 10 degrees?! I am surprised its as much as that with the internal teeth (or whatever they are)
Certainly 2degrees would be within margin of error
The thing is running so roughly that Ive been trying everything without success and it makes little difference so far
This afternoon I even tried altering to 310 ATDC to match the 50 BTDC mentioned above and even that made no real difference
And now I cant be sure what I was using to get the offset in the first place!
I shall have to go back and check it all again no doubt.
In the mean time I suspect a faulty crank sensor so Ive got one on order..
Thanks for those comments!
Check out Invader Garage on Youtube
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3C55qk-tbKc0WjmxGqFoXg
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spegru
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| posted on 12/11/24 at 08:11 PM |
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This afternoon I took delivery of a new crank sensor so I went back to look at this again.
One of the problems I am having is uncertainty about the polarity of the connector, especially as I am not currently using the proper plug as
it's broken. It appears to be the same as for Cam sensors but different to Ford 4 Cylinder Duratec sensor plugs (the AJ30 is really a Ford
Duratec v6).
I am guessing that could be a Mazda type due to its parentage? My Jaguar S Type Wiring diagram doesnt help because it just shows what pin is
connected to what with no - VR+/- etc. For now I am using miniature spade connectors directly onto the sensor. I suspect the pins are numbered left to
right with the tag side upward?
Bear in mind that are no plug leads so I've had to rig up an extension with a plug lead from another car in order get my timing light working!
With all that in mind I got the following
With VR+ connected to the left sensor pin ( clip side upward) my timing light syncs with TDC as follows
1, 285deg ATDC (75 BTDC) - Falling edge trigger
2. Timing light fails to flash with Rising edge trigger
VR+ on the right
1. 280deg ATDC (80 BTDC) - Falling edge trigger
2. 285deg (75 BTDC) - Rising edge trigger (NB the 5deg difference)
Because this didnt line up with my previous 305 figure I checked my TDC mark - but that hardly changed. My new marks are closer to the pointer,
reducing a bit of paralax error though. I then retested as follows
VR+ on the left
1. 290 ATDC (70 BTDC) - Falling edge
2. Timing light not working - Rising Edge
VR+ on the right
1. 290 ATDC (70 BTDC) - Rising edge
2. 285 ATDC (75 BTDC) - Falling edge
I guess this tallies with a tooth that is 5 degrees wide and that the different wiring option converts rising to falling etc.
The only explanations why I am seemingly nowhere near my previous 305 ATDC is that I have a new Sensor and maybe reduced a bit of error - but so
much?!
I note that the screenshot above specified 50deg, Rising edge and I am well away from that. This is an early AJ30 and I know that later ones as used
in the Jaguar XF are visibly different in the timing chain area so maybe that's why?
As ever any help appreciated - connector type and pin numbers especially
[Edited on 12/11/24 by spegru]
Check out Invader Garage on Youtube
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3C55qk-tbKc0WjmxGqFoXg
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spegru
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| posted on 13/11/24 at 12:48 PM |
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Followup on this.
I've just noticed that not only the Crank & Cam sensors but also the Coil on Plug (COP) devices all have the same type of plug!
It's therefore possible that the correct plug is this one:
Ebay
link
Although these are for a 4cyl Duratec they do look the same so Ive ordered some
Also from looking at COP No1 and the Jaguar wiring diagram for the ignition coils:
a) Pin 1 is on the left as you look at the socket on the device with the tag/grooves upward (as I thought)
b) Pin 2 is COP 12v, and ECU COP Signal is on Pin 1.
And from the Jaguar wiring diagram for the Cam sensors:
CMP1 pin 2 is a common ground whereas CMP2 pin 1 is that common ground! which seems a bit bizarre because it implies that the sensors dont care which
way round they are wired (but does it invert expected the cam pattern?
Some of you guys have got this engine running so
help appreciated etc!
Esp Crank polarity and did you sync Cams?
[Edited on 13/11/24 by spegru]
Check out Invader Garage on Youtube
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3C55qk-tbKc0WjmxGqFoXg
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spegru
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| posted on 16/11/24 at 01:05 PM |
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Duh!
I just realised that when I did those recent ~285deg ATDC crank sensor offset measurements, the ECU was probably putting in its own Advance figure for
turnover!
So now I need to measure again.
Certainly a better explanation for the discrepancy than fitting a new sensor
[Edited on 16/11/24 by spegru]
[Edited on 16/11/24 by spegru]
Check out Invader Garage on Youtube
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3C55qk-tbKc0WjmxGqFoXg
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spegru
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| posted on 16/11/24 at 03:01 PM |
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Indeed. That error was definite
So now with slightly easier to read timing marks and and VR+ on the right (looking into the sensor with clip/ridges upward) we have TDC timing of:
300 deg ATDC (60 BTDC), using rising edge trigger
295 deg using falling edge trigger
I'll be using the Rising edge setting for now
This is a 300deg ATDC/ 60deg BTDC Crank Sensor Offset
Check out Invader Garage on Youtube
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3C55qk-tbKc0WjmxGqFoXg
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spegru
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| posted on 17/11/24 at 12:39 PM |
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In fact those Duratec 4 cylinder COP connectors do not fit - either the Jaguar AJ30 COPs or the Crank/ cam sensor. Very similar, but different.
So those will be going back then
[Edited on 18/11/24 by spegru]
Check out Invader Garage on Youtube
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3C55qk-tbKc0WjmxGqFoXg
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mgb281
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| posted on 19/11/24 at 08:47 PM |
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If you can wait a week or so I am about to buy a 2.1V6 engine and providing the pallet company does its work then you can have both the sensor and the
plug with a length of wire FOC. I am only buying it for a mock up so don't need the wiring, sensors etc. This is assuming that they fit the
earlier S type engine. I bought an ex Rocketeer ME442 with a Rocketeer loom, strangely the VVC, an O2 sensor or knock control was never included in
the loom, hopefully I will have mine running next summer
By the way the Jaguar shares no parentage with the Mazda engine. The Ford/Jaguar engine was an abandoned Porsche design which was bought by Ford,
further development was done by Cosworth before being put into production at Ford's Cleveland Plant. It also shares some detail with the SHO
engine developed by Yamaha for Ford, there was actually a 60 degree V8 version of the SHO engine
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mgb281
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| posted on 19/11/24 at 09:16 PM |
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pre 2002.5 engines used two pin COPS later ones used four pin COPS have you got plugs for the later engine?
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spegru
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| posted on 20/11/24 at 09:22 PM |
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Thanks for the offer mgb281. It could come to that if yours are the same. I do still have an original loom but it appears to very poorly screened so
ive set up some external screened cables.
It is an early '99 engine with 2 pin COPs. The crank and cam sensors all share the same 2 pin connector that is similar but different to the 4cyl
dratec items i found.
The sensors are stamped with the Ford logo so it shouldnt be that hard surely!
I have the whole thing jury rigged with some miniature spade terminals for now.
On another note, although the engine fires it always conks out after 30-90 seconds
Is there anything weird i should look out for, perhaps the presently disconnected VVT, or IMT setup?
Check out Invader Garage on Youtube
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3C55qk-tbKc0WjmxGqFoXg
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mgb281
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| posted on 21/11/24 at 06:58 AM |
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Text I have been very slowly progressed with fitting a AJV6 into a MGB but now that I have retired the progress is a little quicker, I
media blasted the bodyshell in September and have now epoxy primed the whole of it and base coated and clear coated the interior and underneath. Due
to the cold weather I am now looking at starting the wiring of both the whole car and the engine.
I found the ME442 on the piston heads forum where a Rocketeer owner had replaced it with an MBE ECU, Rocketeer had a big fallout with ME over the ECU
installation and offered a low cost upgrade to the MBE. Before I purchased it I spoke to the Rocketeer owner, ME and one of their preferred rolling
road tuners. ME said the poor running of the AJV6 with the ME442 was down to the lack of sensors to control the engine properly, ie no O2 sensor to
provide closed loop running, Rocketeer wanted a vey simple loom. The Dyno tuner said that he had seen the early Rocketeer inlet manifold and thought
that the whole poor running, cold start etc was down to the idle valve pipe being too small to flow enough air to give a stable idle and cold start.
The Rocketeer owner confirmed that the idle valve pipes had been replaced with bigger ones, he also confirmed that the MBE also took a long time and
several visits to Basset Down before it was acceptable. Although none of the above applies to you there must be something wrong with the installation,
is the DBW controlling the idle or is that causing the rough running? Is that possibly caused by a faulty temperature sensor not allowing the ECU to
adjust fuelling as the engine warms up?
Finally I did some searching several years ago about fitting a Megasquirt ECU and at the time Extra EFI seemed to be more geared up to supply a three
coil pack wasted spark ignition system. After further searching I found that a lot of S Type owners have poor running problems that are difficult to
cure, it appears to occur when the ignition plugs are changed, some owners had changed all the COPS to cure the problem. Even the Jaguar ECU fault
codes didn't point to where the problem lay. This is why I am considering getting rid of the COPS.
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