I was chatting to a mate last night about speccing a kit and engine choices. 2.0 Duratec is the favoured engine choice but being quite new they seem to be pricey still and not many have been fitted compared to zetecs etc. The reason for favouring duratec is the newness and the anticipation that in the near future good power increases can be had for sensible money.

Reason for the post is therefore - what would you choose and why? (limited to 2.0 flavours please)

If you opt for duratec why would you do that and where would you look to source one at a decent price (and the bits to make them run in a se7en). How would you fuel it - again on a reasonable budget? What gearbox would you opt for?

My view was that there are more parts for the zetec available off the shelf and if you pop an engine a replacement can be had farly cheaply, but im sure in a couple of years the same will be said of duratecs.


Hopefully this will provoke an interesting debate.


I dont suppose anyone has a knackered bottom end they are willing to loan out do they so engine mounts etc can be made?

Duratec will need a different bellhousing as well, they are not the same pattern as the older Fords.

Yeah, we are aware of some of the basic differences. Not looked into wiring and fuelling specifics yet though. Things like bell housing adaptors are a key consideration on cost.

IIRC the duratec was a joint development between ford and mazda,

could that mean that there is a possibility of an mx-5 Gearbox bolting up ?

just a wild guess, but if it works, could be very useful....

I'd go duratec. The fact that the zetec is an iron block and the duratec is alloy would be the deciding factor for me.

Mike

Interesting point Mike. Does anyone know the weight and dimension differences between the 2? Are duratec sumps easily modified? Any issues with location of ancilliaries?

I'd favour the zetec. Bolts straight on, has exhaust on the correct side so deafens the passenger not driver, can get pre 95 flavour so no need for cat so can be run on carbs.

Id go zetec as at the moment there cheap and tuneable and then in a few years go for the duratec once the prices are reasonable and a few are knocking around. Surely the change wouldnt be that expensive and only a few mods would be needed when you need to make the change. What fords come with the duratecs fitted?

Just seen this duratec bolted to what looks like a type 9 with modified ali bellhouse.

Might be the picture but that engine looks mighty big
Rescued attachment 00034.jpg

I should have read more its a BGH type 9, nice site.

linky

The MX5 and Mazda 6 make RWD Duratec boxes available (six speed is also available).

Duratecs have been fitted to Mondeos since 2001 now so prices are timbling if you know where to look. It was the same with the Zetec though, it took nearly ten years for the Zetec to be a viable 'pocket money' donor engine; the Duratec s a natural progression but with the added blow that as noted there is no 'cheap' box like the type 9 that bolts straight on.

Duratec engines are all alloy, very light, have a big valve head on them and breath a lot better than a zetec (or anything else before that) They have a longer stroke and all this helps remissions in the Ford car.

A gearbox from an MX5 will fit OK so cheap forward for a 6 speed gearbox

The Duratec will take over the zetec the same way it took over the Pinto once there is plenty about and they get cheap enough. An exhaust, throttle body's and cams should see the engine go near 300bhp.

Currently there's a series about installing one into an old RWD Ford in ClassicFord.

I would go for duratec, coozers listed all the important differences. they are a lot lighter than a 2 litre zetec.

Plus you can bolt on a throttle body kit and get 240bhp without needing to make any internal mods.

if I had had the money, I would have fitted a duratec from the start!

David

Try looking at Burton Power's summary of both engines -

Duratec

Zetec

This dispels some of the myths!

Westfield World have an intersesting comparison page.

I've been looking at this very thing and decided on a Zetec, based on cost. But, I'm having serious doubts all the time!

Wyn

Hey guys you're getting me drooling over these engines.

Fitting into a locost seems like and easy job, but I've been having another thought.
How about fitting one into my MR2? I was thinking of using it as a replacement of my 3s-GE engine.
Being a FWD setup since it is mid engine. Anyone done anything similar?
If I were to spend money on a 3S-GTE, this does seem like a bette alternative.
Does anyone know if any of the Ford FWD gearboxes come with LSD?

Deffo Duratec for me. More modern, more efficient, lighter. Downsides - less cheap parts, more mods needed to fit RWD (water rail, alternator etc), awkward exhaust.

They have come in price a stack load in recent months. Check out this one on ebay...

quote:

---

Originally posted by coozer

A gearbox from an MX5 will fit OK so cheap forward for a 6 speed gearbox

---

I have a zetec and I don't regret the choice given my circumstances but if I had the money it would be the Duratec.

Bolting on Throttle Bodies gives 240hp!

That is complete BOL**X!!!

I'll challenge you now to show me a Duratec (standard) making 240hp with Throttle Bodies!

My Honda S2000 engine makes only slightly more than that with millions of pounds worth of development by Honda!

It's this kind of USELESS information that causes people to become dissapointed.

A stock Duratec on TB's - is likely to make anywhere between 150-185hp - and you'd have to be fkin lucky to get it up there. If you spent money on Roller Throttle Bodies and some internal work - you can make 200hp ish

Honestly - 240hp!

I suppose my Honda S2000 with some bike carbs will make 500hp by that logic!

**RANT OVER**

ZETEC
+ cheap, reliable, parts easily available
- heavy (ish)

DURATEC
+ Light, tuning potential
- expensive, expensive to tune, expensive ancilieries

Also - depends on which side you want the ZORST

Zetec = passenger
Duratec = driver



P.S - I was under the impression that only 'new' MX5 gearboxes fit? Not the old ones - unlikely to get a new MX5 gearbox for £70!

[Edited on 31/1/08 by muzchap]

Quoting Burton Power -

'What this means to us is it doesn’t take much to tune the Duratec to around 200bhp, at which point, you need to switch the rods and pistons to more reliable components. '


[Edited on 31/1/08 by lsdweb]

And Shawspeed - 230BHP with ECU, TB's, cams etc....

My bad, 190bhp with no internal mods. Then if you want 225bhp its a new cams job.

http://www.webcon.co.uk/alpha/AlphaPlusKits.htm

K3220JR Gold Kit - Ford Duratec 2.0 (OE T/Body) - 220BHP £895.00

http://www.webcon.co.uk/alpha/Duratec%20JR%20Flyer%20Ver1.pdf

David

[Edited on 31/1/08 by flak monkey]

I am just coming to the end of a Duratec install upgrading from Pinto and to be honest it is no more difficult than putting in a Pinto/Zetec or Bike Engine.

Yes the costs can be expensive but it depends on how far you want to go with making your own parts etc. A water rail is not required (look at westfields installation) the alternator is no more difficult to do than a Zetec just use a small denso one and make some mounts and use a belt from a Mazda 3 Sport.

The oil filter does need a new outlet to turn it thru 90 degrees but on a new build you could make the chassis to suit the original. I think the original sump could be baffled if required.

The exhaust is no more of a problem than any other engine, I have managed to rework my Pinto one to suit a new flange.

The clutch need to be hydraulic and this costs about £120 to do and a new bell housing will be required if you use a type 9 box.

The induction side can be T/B or a manifold for twin webers is avaliable for about £80.

I think my total cost after selling the pinto parts will be about £1800 but I will have a lightweight package giving 185-200bhp from a standard engine that will last the life of the car.

The only down side is that it is quite a tall engine (about 25mm less than a Pinto) but if you have a pinto in the first place that wont be a problem.

I will post some photo's later.

[Edited on 31/1/08 by keith2lp]

I was thinking of swapping to a Duratec but after talking to Dunnels it looked a better move to go for cams for the Zetec , and get a little more power than a standard Duratec running like for like on TBs.

The Duratec would be a nice choice but do your sums first and take into account gearbox etc.

I've just stripped two zetecs, one with 122K and the other with 70K miles and both were still like new inside...

Don't get too hung up on peak power as things like gear ratios and torque will made the big differences.

[Edited on 31/1/08 by zetec]

Go for it - who says they are expensive engines??

Bargain:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/DURATEC-2-0_W0QQitemZ320213062172QQihZ011QQcategoryZ21654QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Haha - still quoting power figures from Internet Tuners - cool

Ok - here's the ACID test - ring them and ask them if they **GUARANTEE** that power - oh guess what, it's dependent upon specific engines, situations yada yada.

The ELISE boys have been through all of this already - the figures quoted on the Duratecs are *WILDLY* inaccurate.

But hey - you pays your money, you takes your chances. Good luck

The 'Shawspeed' kit seems the most reliable in terms of alleged power gains - but at £3500 is not exactly a cheap option...

*AND* they all need CAMS - even to get it to 185BHP using the standard plenum - so good luck there with your £895 220hp Engine - the WEB-CON name ring any bells

But hey - that's my opinion - I researched this quite a bit when considering whether to stick a Duratec in my Elise. The 2.3 Turbo'd seemed the best option - but the 2.0l in some cases struggled to produce useful power above 185ish HP - plenty of rolling roads to choose from for proof.

For £3.5k for 230hp - you could get a Honda engine for £1k which does that out of the box standard... (Civic engine)

So good luck - 185hp ish is quick in a 7 anyway so nobody will be dissapointed - but don't believe the Internet hype! None of these *rogues* will *guarantee* the power figures - they're like cheap speaker salesmen 100000000watts! but actually, only capabable of 20watts RMS for consistent delivery...

Actually - thanks for posting this link:

http://www.webcon.co.uk/alpha/Duratec%20JR%20Flyer%20Ver1.pdf

If you look at it closely - none of them actually produce ANYWHERE near the claimed output figures. These are allegedly 'at the wheel' figures - are they saying that :

K3190JR (standard) = 150ish (not as incorrectly labelled 194) - which given around 25hp loss through transmission = roughly 175hp

K3210JR (Fast Road) = 170ish (+25hp lost through transmission) = 195ish - this is with cams etc etc

K3220JR (Ultimate) = 180ish (+25hp lost through transmission) = 205hp - this is with cams, springs etc etc.

And this is the *BEST EVER CASE* scenario - as it's their promotional literature.

*saddended* by the crookery of these companies



Misrepresentation - wholly!

That 'internet tuning company' happens to be the UK branch of Weber carbs who tend to know what they are taking about when it comes to engine tuning etc.

I think someone got out of bed on the wrong side this morning!

You can buy a 300bhp cossie duratec for £12k if you like?

Nope def right side of bed

Just get annoyed with the 'generous' figures quoted. I nearly spent £5k on a Duratec conversion on the Elise that wouldn't have got me as much power as turboing my original engine for around £2k!

I could have been £3k down - just trying to help others avoid the same mistake

All companies are 'sellers' it's their raison d'etre to 'oversell' - we as the 'enlightened' consumers need to understand this

I wasn't personally attacking you Mr Flak Monkey - apologies if it came across that way

Nope def right side of bed

Just get annoyed with the 'generous' figures quoted. I nearly spent £5k on a Duratec conversion on the Elise that wouldn't have got me as much power as turboing my original engine for around £2k!

I could have been £3k down - just trying to help others avoid the same mistake

All companies are 'sellers' it's their raison d'etre to 'oversell' - we as the 'enlightened' consumers need to understand this

I wasn't personally attacking you Mr Flak Monkey - apologies if it came across that way

Darren, you know what I am going to say....................

sorry if its a cracked record but quickly skirting round all the argument and crap above, have you properly considered the vauxhall route.

Its heavier than the duratec, but not much, has slightly better power potential than the duratec IN STD FORM WITH BOLT ON INDUCTION AND EXHAUST (before I get shot down in flames) and absolutely wastes the zetec in that respect (min 25hp advantage over 2lt zetec)

Compared to the money talked on duratecs, I'd consider it if I were you!!

I know decent XE's are hard to get now but they are still out there if you are willing to buy a complete car then sell on the salvage less engine.

I'd love a duratec in my locost, but the few kg weight advantage isn't worth the 2 grand extra cost over my XE!!!!!

......just another view from me, and I know I am stuck with an engine which is rapidly coming of age, but other than an alloy block, there is nowt better owt there to my knowledge.................

PS, just to make sure some newbies on here don't get the wrong idea, I have run two different std vauxhall XE engines on two different rolling roads (each engine) and recorded over 200hp at the flywheel on each occasion. In each case the engine was fitted with either 45mm parallel or 48mm parallel throttle bodies, an ecu controlling ign and injection (mbe 956 not that it matters) and a decent 4-2-1 exhaust system. The norm was 204hp at flywheel, 176@ wheels, 168lb ft torque.

figures recorded not quoted from a magazine.

Darren, if you are ever in Leics area, you are welcome to try out my vauxhall locost and see what you think

[Edited on 31/1/08 by NS Dev]

Hi Nat, this thread is genuinely not for my benefit. A mate of mine is speccing up an MNR and trying to decide what to go for. Duratec route is almost a done deal but nothing wrong with canvassing ideas and collecting some data on them.

Thanks for the offer of a run out in yours - one day id love to take you up on that.

ahhhh, sorry didn't read the thread properly!

In that case, if the finances are less of an issue, go for the duratec, its best in the longer run as a lot more can be done with it in the future, the zetec is very limited by its valve position and size

Ive just been looking at http://www.westfield-world.com/enginespecs_car.html.

Some intersting facts. Stick to the ford stable for simplicity;
Assuming 600Kg car with pinto (135kg engine) p:w is 175bhp/ton at std 105bhp. Upping this to 140 (as ive done on decent budget, at flywheel) gives 230/ton.

Fit 1600 Zetec SE, 100bhp std. Engine is only 81Kg (car now 545Kg). 180/ton std or 260/ton with bike carbs, mjlj, good exhaust etc. Power hike is similar to pinto but weight difference makes it worth more.

Fit 2000 Zetec, 135bhp std. Engine is 115Kg. Car now 580Kg. 230/ton. Basic tune package as above gives 260/ton.

Fit 2000 Dratec, 145bhp std. Engine is 97Kg, car now 560Kg. 260/ton. Tune as above (165BHP??) gives 295/ton.

(iam aware of the plethora of other tuning ideas and specs - above is to keep it simple).

Looking at this theres not much between a zetec se and 2000 zetec. Maybe lacking a bit of torque but weight reduction could make the car a bit more nimbler.

Overall though, cost aside, the duratec looks king and with injection (200bhp???) the ratio could be over 350bhp/ton.

Outside ford and you have some good competion from the Toyota engines and the ubiquitous XE16V.

Or, for £1k ish get an Sr20DET Nissan engine that will come with it's own gearbox and loom, is 200bhp as standard, all ali block, can be tuned to 280bhp for another £500 tops and be completely reliable ........ choice is yours

I think we were avoiding turbochargers, I dont like them and nor do a lot of others! (for a lot of reasons, not just "cos I don't"