I am suffering a few breathing probelms on my pinto engine. I have set up a pipe to a catch tank with a filter on it but wondered if i should be running one of the intended breather devices. I have had a look on Burton's website and can only find one for a CVH engine.

Can anyone tell me if this is suitable for a pinto.

Cheers James

I wouldn't use that.

google for Dave Andrews and his excellent description of the pinto breather system.

Cheers

mark

I wouldnt think that one is suitable.If you do a search on burtons site for fp631 thats one you can use(filler cap with breather outlet) I also used a fp280 again from burtons(this replaces the standard block breather) and run a pipe from each to a catch tank.
Hope this helps Paul.

I used that CVH one in the std oil trap and it worked ish but not fantastic.

Good breathing is a nightmare. Im on my 5th or 6th iteration so far and not quite there.


What is your set up so far.


Edit to add - that pic is a CVH crankcase breather and not a ventilated oil filler cap. Far cheaper in Halfords.

[Edited on 17/7/07 by DarrenW]

At the moment I have the oil filer cap blocked off and a hose coming from the breather on the side of the block( under the carbs) going into a can which has a breather filter sticking out.

With this I still appear to be getting oil coming out fo the dip stick though.

quote:

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Originally posted by slim Jim
At the moment I have the oil filer cap blocked off and a hose coming from the breather on the side of the block( under the carbs) going into a can which has a breather filter sticking out.

With this I still appear to be getting oil coming out fo the dip stick though.

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ive been pulling my hair out over this for ages so i hope i dont bless you with bad fortune by replying

My set up is as follows;

1. Rocker cover - totally standard, breather cap fitted, 12mm pipe to catch tank.
2. Crankcase - PCV junked. Std sierra oil seperator (approx 40mm diameter, grommet in top) still in place. Ive also placed Cortina trap on top of it (i didnt realise sierra one was removable and cortine would replace it). 12mm pipe from oil trap running vertically to a TEE piece from the rocker vent pipe.
3. catch tank. Mine is a basic ali container. 2 inlets enter from the sides (near the top) and one pipe is in the top vertically. Ive connected a breather filter to the top one. 12mm pipes fit over theses connections but the ID is probs around 8mm. After a while the tank gets some gunk in it (like vapour filled brown oil) and then starts blowing out of the breather filter and makes a mess. My thought is that the inlet pipe ID's are a little small and doesnt drop the pressure enough.


Next mods - remove sierra trap and fit cortina one dirctly into crankcase. Pipe from this direct to catch tank (ie not into the TEE). Increase the ID of the exit pipe (logic says 2x 8mm inlets should need more than one 8mm breather outlet).

Edit / correction - i drilled out the 8mm ID to ID 11mm so closer to the bore of the pipe on all 3.

If this doesnt work im running out of ideas.

I have heard of people making another connection from base of catch tank back to the sump. Im still not fully convinced this is a good idea after seeing the state of the residue in the tank, but the tank does condense hot oil and vapours onto the cold ali which is where some o fthe water will come from, so maybe a tap straight back to sump may not result in the oil being so crappy. Also when engine is running at correct temperature any water vapours etc are naturally boiled off (hence why it is not a good idea to over cool engines).


Also looking for thoughts and inspiration from others.

Only other thing i can think of is catch tank redesign (inlets feeding lower into the tank and some foam baffle / trap material etc). It would be easier to fit new catch tank though.

[Edited on 18/7/07 by DarrenW]

quote:

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Originally posted by 40inches

quote:

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Originally posted by slim Jim
At the moment I have the oil filer cap blocked off and a hose coming from the breather on the side of the block( under the carbs) going into a can which has a breather filter sticking out.

With this I still appear to be getting oil coming out fo the dip stick though.

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Had this problem with my Pinto,took the valve innards out(the one below the carbs) problem solved
Another thought,some people have this problem when they shorten the sump and then shorten the dipstick as well causes oil to pee out of every orifice at high revs.

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Well, I think I've just about cracked it on my car. I'm using a Cortina block breather, pipe loops up as high as possible on the bulkhead before dropping down to the catchtank. Another pipe exits the rear of the cam cover, and is tee'd into the crankcase pipe where it drops down to the tank. Catch tank just has an open pipe from the top to breathe.

Done loads of trackdays, and usually get about a pint dumped into the tank, then it stops. So at my last one, (Cadwell Monday) I only filled the oil to the mid point on the dipstick, thrashed the nuts off the car all day, and lo and behold, only a spoonfull of fluid in the catchtank.

I think if the sump is not baffled, particularly on a trackday, or under heavy braking, the oil gets whipped up by the crank, and then blown out of the breather.

Here is the article Mooky referes to

http://members.aol.com/sarandrews/wateroil.htm


Thanks for the info Andrew. Im tempted to cut a largish hole in the top of my catch tank and just push the pipes into it and let them vent up the sides!!

I wonder if my trip up and down sutton bank yesterday moved some oil about?? Probs not.

quote:

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Originally posted by DarrenW
Here is the article Mooky referes to

http://members.aol.com/sarandrews/wateroil.htm


Thanks for the info Andrew. Im tempted to cut a largish hole in the top of my catch tank and just push the pipes into it and let them vent up the sides!!

I wonder if my trip up and down sutton bank yesterday moved some oil about?? Probs not.

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That is what i have concluded so far as well. The breather filter does clog fairly quickly. I also think pressure is being held in the tank by virtue of the fact there are 2 inlets and one out all at the same diameter.

Only reason i fitted a filter is to act as a bit of a trap but i think it is having a negative effect. Ine thought i had was to drill the exit pipe out and leave a larger hole just larger that the surface area of the 2 inlets. Only prob on mi tank is the inlets dont enter and then go low in the tank and the exit hole is inline withe inlets. On the website link it suggests the inlets should exit low on the inside of the tank and some foam baffle should be added. I can see the logic in this.

Thanks for all the advice guys - quite a bit for me to work with there! I have ordered a filler cap with a breather take off and I best check out the PCV valve too!
Cheers James

I did some work on catch tank last night and just taken some pics of my install at the mo -might help.

Pic 1 is the Cortina oil trap. I have made a mistake by fitting it on top of the sierra trap. Next job is to remove std sierra bit and fit cortina bit direct to crankcase.
Rescued attachment 19072007141.jpg

pic 2 is current pipework. You can now see that ive TEE'd the crankcase vent pipe into pipe from oil filler cap. Next mod is to run oil filler cap and crankcase pipe seperately to catch tank (Ive had it like this before but concerned that single catch tank exhaust outlet was too small = pressure).
Rescued attachment 19072007140.jpg

Pic 3 is catch tank after last nights mods. Ive fitted new baffle inside. (not made a new top yet as i want to observe what happens over a few miles).

before the inlets only protruded a few mm's. The outlet was vertical in top plate but only 40 or 50 mm away - any vapours entering could be forced out of vent before they had chance to condense.

What i have now is something not too dissimilar to Andy D's set up.

I may get my head around fitting a drain from catch tank to engine next if i still get a build up of oil. This is an emotive subject and not supported by some so doesnt need much discussion.
Rescued attachment 19072007139.jpg

Darren, that's exactly the set up (minus the Sierra valve thingy) I had on my car originally. Breather pipe from the oil cap included. It should work fine on the road.

It was when I ventured onto a race track the oil started dumping into the catchtank, but as I say running at a slightly lower oil level seems to have solved that problem. Better sump baffling is probably the real answer, I think.

I reckon you are right about sump design Andrew. maybe you will have the chance to make some improvements to yours soon.

I went for a drive at lunchtime. Came back after 25 miles round trip to find 1/5 litre of oil in the catch tank!!

So ive made some further adjustments. Job 1 i removed the Sierra oil trap. I little stiff to get out but out it came with some bats from the pursuader
Rescued attachment 19072007144.jpg

Fitted cotina trap directly into the crankcase hole. I found that when installed it wrongly before i had pushed the pipe in too far - it was very close to the bottom which is not good. Also i suspectthe angle wasnt good (it was pushed forward by the manifold) which would help to keep the end of the pipe submerged in oil - again not good. Now it looks better and ipe is just entered into the grommet - no further.
Rescued attachment 19072007141.jpg

oops - wrong pic. This is better!!
Rescued attachment 19072007143.jpg

And here is the pipework to catch tank. No more Tee.

Note the pipe from oil trap is routed quite high before looping back to catch tank.
Top of tank will have a cover eventually but ill leave it open for a while so i can make observations.

Again - apologies if im sidetracking or hijacking the thread - just hoping some detail and development notes will help.

[Edited on 19/7/07 by DarrenW]
Rescued attachment 19072007142.jpg

Not much success last night - still got some oil blowing into tank after a few miles.


Pipe now fitted from base of catch tank back to sump - lets see how that goes. Ive more or less got the same set up as Mookaloid now.

Hi i dont under stand why you all have this problem
All i have done is
1 remove the one way valve in the sump[ block side ]
2 blocked the oil filler cap
3 fitted a 10mm bore pipe from were the one way valve use to be fitted to a old WD 40 tin the pipe goes two thirds in to it and i have drilled 6 3mm holes around the top rim .
I have had No problems at all doing it this way and the car gets a lot off stick
Graham

I know Graham, i dont understand it either. The system ive rigged up is at least as good as that. Only noticable difference is im also venting the oil filler cap to the tank as well. After that it could be down to oil level and sump baffles.

It seems some engines vent a lot and others hardly any. Dash is showing excellent oil pressure (sits at 70 ish psi all the time, can rise when i give it some stick), no signs of burning oil, engine seems very healthy.

Could compression ration have a say in it? I dont know what mine is but i had 40thou skimmed off the head when it was rebuilt.

'Tis a strange one.

Darren i had 1mm planed off the head .
The other thing i have done is when i altered my sump i put the extra tank at the front + a s/steel hinge between the old part and the new part so oil would not swill forward on braking but will flow to the back where the oil pick up pipe is i hope this makes sense
Graham

quote:

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Originally posted by jacko
Darren i had 1mm planed off the head .
The other thing i have done is when i altered my sump i put the extra tank at the front + a s/steel hinge between the old part and the new part so oil would not swill forward on braking but will flow to the back where the oil pick up pipe is i hope this makes sense
Graham

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could someone help tell me what I have? I bought the car in the current state and have a box of buts but not sure whats what. thanks
Rescued attachment Photo00003.jpg

and Ive this in the box:
Rescued attachment Photo00005.jpg

First pic looks like std Sierra oil trap with PCV and pipe to inlet manifold. Where does pipe go to. The valve should pull out of the grommet - std has a ball valve with spring behind. Inlet vacuum opens it to pull our crankcase gasses and burn them off. No good with multiple carbs - hence this thread.

The second pic is a cortina oil trap - the bit i had to search long and hard for. Keep it. Useful for multiple carb set ups. Replaces the std sierra oil trap (round bit). See my pics above and you will see wrong way and correct way to fit it.

excellent, Ive got twin 40s so the pipe just vents to air. Im assuming this means its doing NOTHING? Im getting oil out the cap and dipstick.

Ive ordered the burton filler cap with breather and a catch tank so hope to fit the cortina bit and run them both to the tank.

how did you attach the cortina bit to catch tank pipe to the cortina bit? Just push in a pipe?

thanks for the reply this is all new to me, used to more modern stuff lol.

Have a look if the current connection has spring loaded plunger in. If it does then this is the PCV (positive crankcase ventilation) valve. stp 1 is remove the spring plunger ofr just pull it out and fit cortina trap. Read my post above ref fitting cortine trap. I found 1/2" id tube pushed into gromet ontop of cortina trap nice and tight. You can see in posts how i connected to catch tank.

I thing mucatch tank is bad design (hence taking top off and fitting baffle). I also think my modded sump is bad design and needs better bafles. As a result oil is flicked about in crankcase and fills catch tank - i have compensated by fitting a drain back to sump. Have a good reda of this post and do a search. If you have further Q's let me know.

also take note that Jacko doesnt have issues but i do / did - main difference is sump baffles.

thanks darren appreciate it!

No probs. Sorry for spelling mistakes. Using wifes laptop - suffered abuse and kids spilling pop on keyboard. Keys dont work well!!!!! Screen has nearly fell off.

Pinto breathing shouldnt be such a black art. I strongly believe sump design has a big part to play. It seems good baffles to prevent crank being swamped is a good precaution. How to do that is another matter (trial and error i guess).

Have fun and keep in touch. Welcome to the forum.

As Darren say's just ask
Jacko

Cheers guys I ended up getting this breather as the cortina one didnt fit too well. it went into the block ok but getting the hose in from above was a bit tight. I had the car up at a local mechanic tonight to get it booked in for a timing and carb setup and he suggested it. So for £7 Ill have a breather that fits much nicer.



Here is my half baked effort from tonight. Havent got my catchcan yet so improvised with a tub of nutriprem baby milk powder



Thanks for the advice guys steep learning curve here

oh yes Darren the 1/2" heater hose was spot on!!!

he he, that made me chuckle. A bling breather outlet feeding into a babymilk tin!! On a serious note you dont need a fancy off the shelf catch tank. I had mine made up and only cost about a tenner. Several people have used £1.99 ali drinks bottles or old fire extinguishers etc. Do a search for diy catch tanks for inspiration. At last Teesside trackday JoelP's mate used a 2l milk carton to trial his breathing.

Personally id use the milk tin for a while and see how you go. You could always stick some foam in to stop any oil sloshing about, or glue the plastic lid back on and feed pipes through a hole (not tight fitting ones). At least then you can fine tune the breather pipes etc then get a better tank later that will be exactly what you want (design and size).



Im surprised the Cortina trap didnt fit. Mine is a nice tight fit in the block. 1/2" bore pipe squeezes into the grommet nicely. I like the design of this as it is a good size to allow oil to be seperated by the baffle plate and run back into block. I suspect mine is overfilling however due to bad sump design, oil is then forced up pipe as it has nowhere else to go while the engine is running. This si why i have fitted a drain back to sump (which in itself is a second breather from the crankcase).

well I gave it a good run last night and there was no oil in the can just vapour coming out of the pipes.

I got my (£30) catch tank today and have plumbed that in but Im now thinking with the tank being pressurised is it really going to do me any good? I think the open top tank might be better as its allowing the vapour to go free and stopping the pressure getting too high to blow the oil out.

Ill see what happens with the catch tank but Im a little worried I must admit as now the oil cant even go out the filler cap as its plumbed to the catch tank and thus still pressurised.

maybe venting the catch tank via a little filter would be more appropriate.

PS my catch tank has 2 inlets only. both being used (filler cap and block tap)

PPS the problem with the cortina trap is that the gap between the top of it and the bottom of the weber is quite small so the pipe is slightly kinked.

[Edited on 25/7/07 by 2b_pablo]

The cortina trap defo fits in neatly underneath twin webers. You need to remove the sierra trap first though - i didnt on earlier pic in this thread.

im curious about your catch tank. Do you have pic? In my mind it does need to be vented, but also i believe the inlet pipes should run to somewhere near the bottom of the tank. This si why i have fitted a baffle in my tank.
i would be tempted to run the milk tin for a while as this proves the crankcase ventilation is good. Then if you fit new catch tank and you get bother then it suggests it is more down to the tank itself.


Mine seems to be working well since i fitted the drain. Ill cover the top shortly.
Interstingly i was talking to the owner of a 4WD Dax Cosworth Turbo last night - he has all sorts of breathing issues as well. he is also of the conclusion that half the battle is good sump design.

here is the tank mate:

http://i10.ebayimg.com/04/i/000/99/ff/d614_1_sbol.JPG

That is very nice indeed. Looks like you can unscrew the top to see the pipe configuration inside. If one pipe goes to the bottom and one stays at the top ypu maybe able to use the top one as the breather. My only concern is you will need to tee your 2 breather pipes into one which will leave a constriction (possibly).

Other option is you may be able to drill and tap the top cover to fit a vent. Some airline fittings have suitable threaded bit bit they are usually fairly small diameter. Have a go and see what happens first, but like you suspect i think being unvented it just creates a pressured area outside the crankcase which may not be what you want.

well it went rather disasterously. didnt like that setup one bit. blew a LOT of oil out the dipstick as it cant get out the filler cap anymore so Ive taken the top off the tank and run the pipes into it and left the lid off (same setup as the milk tin only a lot neather).

If that makes it happy then it will stay like that!

Making interesting reading all.

I had breathing trouble with mine before in the past, the main problem being not oil spillage as much as the dipstick, pipes & inside rocker cover going all 'mayonaisey' [sp] as if water or condensation was getting in the oil.

This time round I have a different rocker cover with 2 outlets & the block with one outlet from the breather box. All pipes are about 1/2" bore. At the moment these are just vented to air & I have not had a problem yet with oil spill though you can see a mist coming from them [mainly the rocker ones]. I have seem them with the block vented to the rocker, then a second rocker one vented to catch tank which did work on this particular engine though in my eyes you only have half the venting by not using the 2 seperately - does that make sence??

quote:

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Originally posted by jacko
Hi i dont under stand why you all have this problem
All i have done is
1 remove the one way valve in the sump[ block side ]
2 blocked the oil filler cap
3 fitted a 10mm bore pipe from were the one way valve use to be fitted to a old WD 40 tin the pipe goes two thirds in to it and i have drilled 6 3mm holes around the top rim .
I have had No problems at all doing it this way and the car gets a lot off stick
Graham

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