As some of you know I'm looking for a new project to play with. I'm after something a little different and have been looking at a 205 T16 look-a-like I've spotted sitting looking abandoned in a near by street, and they look quite tempting. Main problem so far being the transmission. Anyone know of a transverse mid mounted 4x4 set up? I could use something like a 4x4 sierra set up and extend the front prop whilst shortening the rear one. However, space for the engine and box may be a little tight. Any ideas as I'm a little stumped by this so far.

you could use a longitudinal engine + transaxle from a FWD car, like audi A6, and mount it transversely, and use it's front diff as a centre diff... make some propshafts and mount diffs in the front and rear... but I think that sierra cosworth idea is the best one...

Only problem though is the length of the car behind the seats, or marked lack thereof. Not sure I could actually fit a north-south engine and box in at all, let alone with room for a rear diff. The Audi idea may work, but does anyone know the distance (ish) from the front of the engine to the centre of the main diff? Making the rear diff fit and have drive could be hard if it won't fit somewhere near the middle of the car.

but if you are using the "audi" idea, you just have to mount the engine toward the side of the car, and centre the diff on the centerline of the car... in fact that is exactly how 205T16 was done... the engine sits fully on the passenger side of the car...

I thought it might be, that's why I want to know the distance front to back of the engine, to see if the engine'll fit. Using a 1.8 turbo Audi lump would make things simpler too.

unfortunately I do not have that info... one thing though... you should get a limited slipp diff for that gearbox.. .I think there are no OE audi FWD boxes with an LSD...

Good point. An adjustable one could be good, as it would allow me to alter the front/back power balance to suit weather/terrain/driving preference etc.
Actually ignore that, I was thinking of something else entirely.

[Edited on 6/2/07 by DIY Si]

hmm.... adjustable LSD will not give you the F/R torque adjustment you want... you need a torque splitter for that... not an LSD.. in other words you need a special diff that is hardly off the shelf item...

Peugeot made a 405 4 wheel drive and I just wondered if you could use the bits from one of those. I had one as a business car in the late 80s and a local chap has an estate version that he bought for £500 so price should not be a problem. Just a thought.

hmm, ive thought about simmilar projects too, T16, awsome car, probably the best looking rally car,

i had the idea of longitudinaly mounting a FWD engine+'box and then running the driveshafts to the front and back ford LSD diffs, just an idea, maybe the centre diff may need some work, im not too sure,

post some pics if you go ahead with it, i would love to see someone building a T16

I'm looking into a similar project to build a 4wd 205 (front engined).

My current thinking is to use a 405 Mi16 4x4 as a doner for the engine, gearbox, prop shaft and rear diff and all 4 driveshafts.

The rear of the car would be modified to take an IRS (or De Dion) suspension setup mounted in a fabricated sub-frame/roll cage.

Granted you are talking about a mid engined set-up, but the advantages of my plans are the use of mainly standard Pug parts and the Mi16 engine is still very light so won't upset the weight distribution in the car (in fact the rear drive set-up will add some weight and should improve the overall balance.

Personally I plan to keep the exterior of the car pretty standard bar a few aesthtic mods. Power target would be +200bhp.

This shows some of the 405 Mi16 4x4 drivetrain details for reference...
Rescued attachment 405x4_2.jpg

The 4x4 pug's are one thing I've been looking for info on, but I can't find any pics of the underneath of the car/the transmission to see if it's modifiable or not for this.
Typical, I say I can't find a pic, and by the time I've finished typing someone's already posted one!

[Edited on 6/2/07 by DIY Si]

quote:

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Originally posted by John Bonnett
Peugeot made a 405 4 wheel drive and I just wondered if you could use the bits from one of those. I had one as a business car in the late 80s and a local chap has an estate version that he bought for £500 so price should not be a problem. Just a thought.

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A quick thought on the diffs, an lsd rear is easy enough to find, but do you lot reckon an lsd at the front would be much use?

LSD front on a 4x4 will alter the cornering behaviour with the power on... it is not something you would tihnk would be noticable but it does work with lots of power...

quote
the problem is that with the engione in the rear, you can not pass the propshaft for front wheel drive trough it...

Good point, I'd not thought of that, sorry.

But could you though? I thought the sierra 4x4 had the front prop going through/very near/bolted to the sump? Maybe not as silly as it seems?
Or is it?

quote:

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Originally posted by John Bonnett
quote
the problem is that with the engione in the rear, you can not pass the propshaft for front wheel drive trough it...

Good point, I'd not thought of that, sorry.

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A sierra 4x4x box with the engine up front (you could cut out some bulkhead and move the engine back into the scuttle area a bit to get weight further back so its more like a T16) would be a good,fairly straightforward option.
MT75 4x4 boxes are 2 a penny and props can easily be made any lenght you desire. Talk to Liam if you want more info on them - he's building a 4x4 'locost'.

Audi mounted sideways, or any FWD 'box mounted sideways (eg running propshafts out of where the driveshafts normally go) sounds good, except for one problem - gearing. Effectively you'll be running two final drives so it will be stupily low geared - not so cool.

The very best way IMO would be to go more like the RS200 transmission layout. Rear mounted engine, with the output facing forward. In the RS200 drive is transmitted forward via a propshaft spinning at engine speed to the gearbox and transfer case, which sit at the front. Power is then distributed L/R and rearwards via another propshaft to the rear diff which sits behind the engine.
Hope that makes some sense...?

Having the box up front and seperated from the engine creates a few problems though, so if it were me I would use a conventional front engined, RWD gearbox, eg Ford type 9, MT 75 etc, with the engine at the back and gearbox infront of it, between the seats.
Then a transfer case mounted somewhere infront of that can step the drive to the passenger side, into the centre diff. From there two props carry drive forwards and rearwards to the F & R diffs. Easy!!

The only tricky bit is the transfer case/centre diff which might need to be made if there isn't a vehicle which has one on (maybe a landy?).

Mark

Funnily enough, I have just bought a MI16x4 last weekend. Also got a 205, but not sure whether to combine the two.

Regarding mid engines, I drive an mr2 turbo which is an awesome car - I dread to think of the performance of that lump in a 205.... sonething I have been considering!

Will be interested to hear how you get on!

Tom

quote:

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Originally posted by DIY Si
But could you though? I thought the sierra 4x4 had the front prop going through/very near/bolted to the sump? Maybe not as silly as it seems?
Or is it?

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Regarding the 4x4 mt75, is it possible to alter it so the power split is different? Ie turning it round would give a 66%/33% front-rear split, whilst The other way round would be better. That would get around the transfer box bit, the gearing issue, and put everything in the passenger side too.
The RS200 thing sounds way too complicated for what I want! If weight front/rear is an issue, I'll just move my seat forwards a bit, as I weigh just shy of 100kgs already! I'm hoping for ~800/850 kgs dry weight.

[Edited on 6/2/07 by DIY Si]

Yeah RS200 style front mounted gearbox/transfer case all combined (at least I think thats how they did it?) is not a very 'locost'option!

MT75 4x4 facing "the wrong way" would as you say give you more power to the front than the rear which isn't great. More significantly though, unless you ran the diff's upside down (not a great idea as they apparently aren't as strong that way due to the gears running on the faces they weren't designed for) you will have a car that goes very quickly backwards, with 5 gears!! But only one for forwards...

Thats why I suggest a making or finding a transfer case. It would consist of two big, equal sized gears in a case, one taking drive from the gearbox output (perhaps via a short propshaft so it doesn't have to be mounted rigidly to the gearbox) and the secong gear being bolted around the centre diff (an Audi centre diff is a very small Torsen unit with a 50:50 power split) with propshafts running out of it front & rear.

By using two gears rather than a chain to transfer power to the centre diff you reverse the direction of rotation so that its back to normal again ready for the front and rear diffs.

It might sound a bit complicated, but then all 4x4 systems are really. I think a transfer case would be easy enough to make - some aluminium plates machined out to take big bearings suitable for the sizes of input/output shafts and boxed in to contain some oil for lubrication.

Not sure any of the front engined 4x4 cars would be any good as donars, AFAIK they're all basically FWD layouts with power taken off and sent REARWARDS. The front driveshafts on these exit from the gearbox/diff (all one peice like any FWD car) so if you move it to the back you can't rotate it (car will go backwards) and if you run it the same orientation but mounted at the rear you then have an output coming out of the back of your car - not much use for driving the front diff!!

MT75 4x4 mounted at the front would deffinitely be the easiest way, its just not quite as cool as a true middy!

Mark

205s have been fitted with Cossie 4wd systems before as per the pic below, but IMHO it can't do the overall balance, of what is a very light and nimble car, much good.
Rescued attachment lastscan.jpg

Might be worth a U2U to NS Dev on this site (if he doesn't see this). He's built a RWD 205 before - I think he used a Vx 2.0XE engine and type 9 gearbox with a live axle set-up.

Ah, hadn't thought of the gearing issue! Opps. True a standard set up would be easier, but I want a middy! It may, bar the transfer box, be easier to make fit. As I only have to make mounts in the back for the diff and engine (have to do it anyways for the diff), then modify the front to take a diff rather a new engine and gearbox. Or find some 1:1 diffs and use the Audi lump.

haha yeah maybe if we all face in the right direction and pray together some 1:1 diffs will appear!

BTW, the Lancia Delta S4 has the sort of transmission layout I've been on about, but finding good pics of it on the net isn't easy. I had a book with some good cutaways in it somewhere...

Would it be possible to remove the chain from the MT75 transfer box, and replace it with gears? I've not taken one apart so don't know what it looks like inside/if there's space.

Wasn't locost, but at the autosport there was a mid engined mini with a bike derived 2.0 V8 longditudinally mounted driving via torque tube to the transfer box in the middle. This then passed the drive to the respective final drives.

Can't remenmber the name but could find out if you want.

Doubt it'd be in my price range, but any and all ideas are more than welcome! Any pics or so on would be good too.

Just found these pics on http://www.lanciadelta.org/delta_s4.htm
Mmmmmmmmmm!!!

If you can find me one for a tenner, I'll do it that way!

Sorry can't seem to upload the pics I wanted to but if you go to that website and click on the engine you'll see them...

A tenner you say? I'm quite skint but not that desperate for cash. Yet...

Do I get a tenner for telling you where you can get one??!

http://www.milneroffroad.com/TBOX.HTM

The "FULL TIME REMOTE REVERSE ROTATION TRANSFER BOX" (scroll down a bit) looks just the job, although its an open centre diff, but maybe an LSD could be fitted.

Mark

It looks shiny, but maybe a bit complicated for the power output I'm probably looking at. Only aiming for 200-250 to start with. Depending upon engine, then tune/add turbos/fit bigger turbos. It's another reason for going the Audi route if poss, as tuning is much easier later on. Also lets me put the engine in the middle, rather than in the boot. Which would look cool though. Arrgghhhh decisions, decisions!

Just had a look at the Milner stuff. That would do the trick if I can fit the engine in the middle. Could make fitting two seats a problem though, as one would either have to sit above the prop, or have a prop with a good few Uj's in it.

I have been contemplating the MT75 4x4 box for quite some time now, that would be easiest to, and the MT75 is also the smallest width (looking from the top) at the position that the front prop would come out.

so the form the rear wheels to the front wheels, you'll have:
rear diff (= upside down sierra diff which in that case is turning in the normal direction btw)
propshaft to the side outputshaft from mt75
engine pully end
bellhousing from mt75
Mt75 4x4 gearbox
propshaft to front sierra diff (also upside down and spinning in the normal direction)
sierra diff

All diffs and gearbox are spinning in the right direction. the mt75 makes the transmission tunnel quite wide at the rear but that's not a real problem in a middy.

just make sure that the engine's width you are using is small enough at the bottom end for the rear propshaft to pass by. the rear diff will be the offset to the left of the car (looking from behind) so halfshafts would be different in length.

the propshafts will be made to length but making it possible to mount the rear diff realy behind the engine instead of the engine being on the diff, so it's a true midengined car.

diffs can be anything just as long they are the same ratio, normal sierra diffs would be able to acoomodate that because they each are only doing half the engines power unless you keep the original center diff in the mt75, but I would contact quiaffe on that, I heard somehwere that they do different ratio diffs for these boxes.

at least that's what I think, from memory of drawings I made it should fit a spire.

grtz Thomas

[Edited on 7/2/07 by thomas4age]

[Edited on 7/2/07 by thomas4age]

That's sounds similar to what I was planning, but turning the gearbox gives most of the power to the front wheels, which I don't want! If there's a way of altering that then it'd work.