What's the best engine to look for if i'm looking to spend about £1200 on the engine (inc ECU&ancillaries etc) and gearbox? I was thinking perhaps something like a Ford or Alfa 3.0 V6? How would something like one of the VAG 1.8T engines be in a locost?

Decided to go the CEC route as would like to go for the odd reasonable distance cruise without going mad. Think the next one will be BEC tho! (better get started with this first one first tho!)

yep fit your boat anchor

then youll regret it about two weeks later

and fit the real deal

bec

http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=39198

The VW 1.8T engine would be a wicked choice...

BUT...

Getting a gearbox to fir it is the problem, cos VAG have never produced a purely RWD car (AFAIK).

This is fine if you are building a mid engined car, and they are used a lot by middy builders.

The only way I can think of is if you managed either to get a funny bellhousing made up for the venerable old Type 9 box, or managed to get a BMW box (Getrag 262 or something) to fit.

If you can figure out an easy and cheap way of getting a VAG engine to fit a locost, then do tell me!!

Otherwise, a 2.0Zetec with either twin DCOEs or throttle bodies and Megasquirt EFI seems like a good bet, and probably roughly in your budget too. 150BHP easy (theyre 143 as standard).

HTH.

Ed.

Easiest modern solutions would be either Ford Zetec or Toyota 4AGE. The Ford Type 9 gearbox fits both engines although you need a special bell housing for the Toyota engine which is available from RAW.

[Edited on 15/3/06 by donut]

Regulars on here have a good idea which engine I'll be recommending

For a relatively straight forward buy and bolt in then consider the Toyota 4AGE 20V engine.

Light weight compact engine which has proven to be reliable on track and very driveable on road.

Comes fitted with individual throtle bodies and Toyota kindly lightened and balanced the internals at the factory(blacktop)!

147BHP @ 7800 RPM and 112 ft lbs @ 4500 RPM. Note that you've got 100+ lbs ft of torque from 2500 to 7500 RPM whcih makes the engine such a gem in a light weight car.

Approx prices

Silvertop 4AGE 20V - £600 + VAT
Blacktop 4AGE 20V - £750 + VAT
RWD conversion kit - £300
Low profile sump - £150
Type 9 GBX - £50

20V 4AGE Engine - complete with all ancillaries to run, including, wiring loom & ecu, starter, alternator, coil, igniter, flywheel - £1250 + VAT

To reduce cost you could make your own wiring loom, fit a Megajolt and find the engine ancilliaries your self.

Plus it looks good!!


Original engine bay layout - front

[Edited on 15/3/06 by bimbleuk]

quote:

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Originally posted by zxrlocost
yep fit your boat anchor

then youll regret it about two weeks later

and fit the real deal

bec

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how about a k series 1.8 a la caterham?
You can get a bellhousing from caterham or titan motorsport and these engines are often available at 190 bhp (VHPD Elise) The engine is also all aluminium so is lighter than a Zetec. With your budget you should comfortably get a low miler.

.................lights the blue touch paper and runs for cover!!!!

Regulars will also know what engine I will recommend!

I try not to be biased but it makes sense, and in answer to the BEC boys, unless you have over 175hp bike engine my XE will still be better in terms of power to weight, so not such a "boat anchor" really!!!!

I would say fit a vauxhall XE 16v.

You will struggle to do most modern engines for your budget though! Yes, in theory you will, but in practice you will spend £1500 on pretty much any modern engine by the time it is in and running.

Those Toyota 20v engines do make a lot of sense though, very nice and getting cheaper now!

Basically there is no "best bet" here's my opinions on a list:

Vauxhall XE 16v 2.0 - good engine, tad heavy, VERY strong, cheap, plentiful, powerful, torquey, getting long in the tooth now

Toyota 20v - modern engine, powerful, fairly torquey, light, throttle bodies as std, seems pricey but not really as it's cheapsh to fit and RAW have done all the hard work for you

Duratec - pricey, good power but no better than any other decent 2.0 16v, not cheap to fit, won't fit your budget.

Toyota 4AGE - cracking engine but only 1600cc, will fit under "book" bodywork quite easily, not many 16v's will easily! limited power wise, tough, rev happy and fun, cheap, RAW have again done the hard work for you.

Zetec - cheap as chips, easy to fit with std fordy bits, fairly tough, torquey (2.0), a good bet, but won't make the same sort of power as an XE or duratec

Zetec S - cracking engine, 1600 or 1700cc, not sure on bellhousings etc though?? It's been done though so who knows? Very light, absolutely bulletproof, makes sense to me!

Vauxhall Ecotec 1600 16v - another cracking engine, 160hp from bog std engine if you get rid of the std restrictive injection system. Lighter than XE and revs better.

Vauxhall Ecotec 2.0 16v - costs peanuts, or even free! 160hp from std engine minus std injection gubbins, performs the same as a zetec basically........but the std 1600 ecotec makes roughly the same power and is lighter.

Rover K-series - very light, pretty cheap, can easily be made tough but you need to know what you are doing with them and I don't!! A good option but one where you do need to be willing to take it apart before using it.

VAG 1.8T - forget it on your budget

Any V6 - forget it on your budget, unless it's a ford cologne, in which case you may need power steering! (sorry to those using them, I love em but bit heavy for a locost!) or an alfa, which are great and dirt cheap, but you'll need to be very handy at making bellhousings etc in order to fit one!

Peugeot 16v - makes sense but too tall!!! doh!!! cracker of an engine!!! Probably the pick of the whole lot, got the toughness of the vauxhall XE, as good if not better cylinderhead design compared the the XE, and the weight of a duratec! No good though as it won't fit, damn thing!

phew, that's me done, apart from to say, lastly don't forget that £1200 builds a hell of a nice crossflow!

[Edited on 15/3/06 by NS Dev]

have a look at this site
http://www.westfield-world.com/Home.html
from the menu on the left select Technical -> Engine & Gearbox -> Car Engine Comparison
This gives a nice comparison of most comon engines.

My choices would be (in order of preference)
4-AGE - small, light, powerfull
1.6 Zeetec - small, light, powerfull (less than 4-AGE
1.6 / 1.8 K-series - small, light, powerfull
1.8 / 2.0 Zeetec - not too big, lightish, powerfull
1.6 XFlow - small, light

The 1.8 turbo would be a nice choice (the Dutch seven Donkervoort, probably wrong spelling, uses it). But for me, a turbo would be more complexity than I would want in a seven - also too much heat under the bonnet.

NS Dev beat me to it with a much better assesment. Still, check out the link above.

[Edited on 15/3/06 by JonBowden]

Try the Mazda MX5 Mk1 1600 or 1800cc engine.

Comes with a 5 speed (or 6 on the later cars) gearbox, was originally designed for front engine/rear wheel drive, bulletproof on the road and track. Heavily raced in just about every class both in Europe and the USA.

This engine was originally designed to be turbocharged (Mazda 323 Turbo late eighties) and is very strong. It has oil jets to the underside of the pistons!

Can be fitted with any number of tuning parts including turbo & superchargers. Many specialist companies (particularly USA, Flying Miata etc...) and lots of bits about.

I paid £600 for an engine with all ancilliaries, 5 speed gearbox, ECU, exhaust manifold etc... No extras - my car runs on the Mazda ECU/fuel injection and never misses a beat.

Only difficulty was making engine mounts and getting the gearbox into the tunnel - it's quite bulky.

JAG's right, the MX5 would amke a really good donor.
How about buying a banger MX5, driving it around for the summer, then making a locost out of it.

good engine, but limited in terms of power compared to the others (in std form) and oil jets etc are not uncommon, most 16v engines have them.

Certainly the XE vauxhall does!

my choice was the 4age only because i work in a toyota dealership and know that these engines are bloody bomb proof, they will rev to about 8000rpm all day, and sound bloody good too. they are easy to come by as i got mine from an ae92 (corolla gti fwd) i used a ae86 Rwd gearbox which bolts straight on. i paid a heafty sum of 90quid for the whole car and quite easily made my money back from selling the interior and alloys so the engine and loom cost me nothing really,

also the 4age is more powerfull than other engines in its class.
the parts can be expensive and i even have them at cost from work.

the choice is yours

lets add another engine to the list eh. . .nissan ca18. . 1.8 turbo 180ish bhp, comes as rwd and fits in ok see pic


graememkengine

[Edited on 15/3/06 by graememk]

quote:

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Originally posted by Hammerhead
how about a k series 1.8 a la caterham?
You can get a bellhousing from caterham or titan motorsport and these engines are often available at 190 bhp (VHPD Elise) The engine is also all aluminium so is lighter than a Zetec. With your budget you should comfortably get a low miler.

.................lights the blue touch paper and runs for cover!!!!

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bargain............as long as the head gasket is ok. Head gaskets seem to be the weak spot on these engines.

Good choice sticking with a proper engine rather than a buzzy bike engine, if you are going to be doing any distance at all rather than purely track work it's the right choice IMO.

I would agree with NS Devs summary, and personaly I think the 20XE is a bit of a bargain these days in terms of bhp/£. Bellhousings are easily available to mate it to ford gearboxs and spares/tuning parts are still readily available.

quote:

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Originally posted by aeroluke
What's the best engine to look for if i'm looking to spend about £1200 on the engine (inc ECU&ancillaries etc) and gearbox? I was thinking perhaps something like a Ford or Alfa 3.0 V6? How would something like one of the VAG 1.8T engines be in a locost?

Decided to go the CEC route as would like to go for the odd reasonable distance cruise without going mad. Think the next one will be BEC tho! (better get started with this first one first tho!)

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heh heh BEC vs CEC!!!! LOL!!!

For me it was tricky, and based largely on the fact that I had a shedful of XE bits...............none of which have been used on the car lol!!

If I could build a 1500cc Hayabusa for under 2 grand I would have gone BEC.

As it is, the std XE engine will give me better power to weight than I can achieve spending the same money on a bike engine.

I know I don't have the rather sexy gearbox, which would be very nice, but then I do have reverse, which though not critical, is also nice.

I don't really see the argument myself, both have pros and cons.

I will be building a BEC next, but it's an autograss car, and it will get over the power to weight issue as well, cos it will have two bike engines!

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good engine, but limited in terms of power compared to the others (in std form)

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Jag,

Just to be pedantic, a standard xe without a cat (if you find an earlier engine) is 155bhp as standard. You can't run the engine in standard guise as for a locost the standard plenum won't fit under the bonnet (well, i've not come across one that does yet) meaning that you need to fit carbs or throttle bodies which means on a standard engine in the region of 175bhp. A friend rebuilt his own race engine and using totally standard gm parts it dyno'd at 187bhp and 160lb/ft - I have seen the printouts myself.

Not saying its better/worse or cheaper than an mx5 engine which certainly has its advantages - but the xe certainly has more tuning potentially imho.
This makes the xe nearing 90bhp/litre - and as its 0.4 litres bigger than the mazda more power and more importantly (but often over looked) more torque.
Obviously the xe will weigh a bit more, but not that much - is the mx5 engine an ally block?

Ned.

[Edited on 15/3/06 by ned]

Thats just it Ned, my grasser engine has never even had the head taken off, totally standard ex cavalier GSI engine, just fitted with ARP rod bolts, and it made 176hp................at the wheels. This was on John Wilcox rolling road in hinckley. It made 204hp @ flywheel with rundown losses.

SBD market their throttle body kit as the SBD 204 kit I think iirc, again, bog stock engine with throttle bodies bolted on and carefully mapped.

.............sorry, it's 208hp!!!

heres the dyno plot:




that is on a std, secondhand XE16v with the kit bolted on.

Made 170lb ft of torque as well, mine only made 168lb ft, whatever happened to my 2 lb ft, think I should complain

Also see this article from PPC mag, 201hp this time, where did the other 7 go??

PPC XE 16v power article

[Edited on 15/3/06 by NS Dev]

it seems that the xe engine and tb's were meant for each other, is there another engine which responds so well to this?

....................if ya wanna spend a LOT of money!!!::::::::

The race engine I mentioned was only running on dellorto 40's which are much cheaper than tb's for the cost concious (locost!!) of us out there

Ok guys, with tuning bits and pieces the XE is obviously a potent engine. However with tuning bits and pieces the Mazda engines can make over 300bhp. Check out the Flyin' Miata website - but that's taking a daft point and making it even sillier.

It's not what we were asked.

quote:

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What's the best engine to look for if i'm looking to spend about £1200 on the engine (inc ECU&ancillaries etc) and gearbox?

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ok then, on a like for like basis:

donor car/engine £400
steel sump from an 8v engine to cut/shut <£50
adapter bellhousing approx £150
pair weber/dellorto 40's <£200
dizzy from an 8v 1.6 mk2 cavalier <£50
inlet manifold <£150

that lot comes to £1000 which is still within his budget and should make in the region of 175bhp.

The only other thing I can think of specific to the engine is the exhaust manifold - you could cut and shut a tubular astra/cavalier one to fit or get one made from the likes of mk/mnr etc but he has £200 left in his budget towards this. Depends how much you are willing/can do yourself as to how locost it is!

Ned.

oh, nearly forgot, you can use a ford (xr4 i think copes with the torque) clutchplate in the vauxhall clutch housing.

[Edited on 15/3/06 by ned]

Ok Ned.....

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Cheaper to get the necessary bits and pieces to fit the Mazda engine and get it on the road than the Vauxhall engine.

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I paid £600 for an engine with all ancilliaries, 5 speed gearbox, ECU, exhaust manifold etc... No extras - my car runs on the Mazda ECU/fuel injection

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I am not arguing the XE is as cheap as an mx5 lump, just that it could be done within the budget he has set.

A standard type9 gearbox will fit the adapter bellhousing with the ford clutch - most people have one from their donor sierra

Ned.

Here's my actual costs, tho I am not sure until I have typed these what they will tot up to!

Engine £200 tested in donor car
Gearbox £25 (one of 3 bought for £75 total)
Bellhousing £140
Throttle body kit incl MBE 956E ecu etc - £650
Caterham HPC sump £75

Exhaust manifold - well, tricky as it can be done cheap, but mine will be £300 by the time I have made it. Could easily be done for £100 though in mild steel instead of stainless.

Total = £1165

The 1.6 MX5 lump vs a 20XE is apples and oranges though. The stock Mazda unit will undoubtedly provide a nice tractable and probably very economic unit at a (very) good price, but

1)They are nowhere near as commonly available as 20XE's
2) The 20XE delivers significantly more power and torque.

You can get 300bhp from the Mazda unit...but you have to turbo it to do so and spend a fortune in the process. Iif you need that kind of power there is always the C20LET which is turbo'd from the factory and can probably produce that kind of power more cheaply. Finding a gearbox that can take the torque might be a challenge though...

[Edited on 15/3/06 by MikeRJ]

You're all wrong!! What you really, really want is a nice Mazda 13B rotary with a turbo. Over 200bhp stock, designed for RWD and a noise to make the hackles rise on the back of your neck.

OK, OK you're not all wrong - that bit was a joke. It's all just horses for courses - I'm bound to stick up for the 4AGE because that's what I have.

4AGE from breaker 100 quid
T-50 gearbox 150 quid
Exhaust manifold & system 280 quid
ECU free with engine
Loom home-made
Lowered plenum home-made
Shortened sump home-made

Total 530 quid, probably only 130-140 bhp but it sounds fantastic, revs like hell and goes like a rocket.

If I was starting again tomorrow I'd strongly consider a 2 litre Ecotec - very cheap, modern engine, very few mods needed to get decent power, no probs with porous heads, RWD conversions readily available.

Cheers,

Eddy

Why has no one suggested the Rover V-8? lots around to choose from, lots of bolt on goodies, some mods required to the engine bay to fit it but it weighs less than a lot of iron block and head 4s. Sounds absolutely brilliant and bags of torque, probablly don't even need a gearbox!

Caber

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Originally posted by caber
Why has no one suggested the Rover V-8? lots around to choose from, lots of bolt on goodies, some mods required to the engine bay to fit it but it weighs less than a lot of iron block and head 4s. Sounds absolutely brilliant and bags of torque, probablly don't even need a gearbox!

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