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Engine offset, Vauxhall XE 16v

NS Dev - 17/1/05 at 05:58 PM

I am currently sorting out the engine mounts for putting my XE engine into the Stuart Taylor Chassis.

I have modded the pedal box to suit Hydraulic clutch, as the cable run would be very nasty, and with the engine mounted a long way back the release arm would clout the chassis in the footwell on the drivers side.

I now have a quandry in that the bellhousing now couts the clutch master cylinder. I think I am going to chop a lug off the bellhousing and do without one of the engine to bellhousing bolts (there is another very nearby, the two next to each other on the starter side of the engine)

Doing this should give me enough room for the master cylinder and a touch of engine movement.

To gain some more space I will need to offset the engine from the car's centreline, which I beieve is the norm anyway. Can anybody shed any light on the sort of angle they have used with this engine?

The problem is compounded by the fact that I am determined to get the engine under the bonnet without a bulge. and the ST chassis uses bodywork of similar dimensions to the Cateringvan, i.e. very small!

I have suceeded but, as on a Cateringvan, the engine in very slightly nose down (8-10mm front to back of the block) and the ground clearance is "limited" (though no worse than most other locosts I have looked at.

How does the engine offset and slight nose down affect the propshaft?

Any views from those doing similar?

ned - 17/1/05 at 06:21 PM

I have the same problem, I've trial fitted my engine in the chassis, and even having widened the tunnel I need to have the engine skewed slightly to the passenger side. It's the ribbed part of the bellhousing where the starter motor is the clouts the upright member at the opening of the transmission tuneel on the drivers side.

I considered grinding a bit off the housing but was concerned about weakening the bellhousing.

It will be interesting to see what other responses you get as I have yet to make my mounts too!

Ned.

chriscook - 17/1/05 at 07:16 PM

I'm building a phoenix with an XE and had to 'redesign' the pedal box with a grinder an weld in a new panel. My pedals are the older top mounted style as it is a sylva chassis not a newer ST one. With bottom mounted pedals I guess this would have been difficult.

The phoenix puts the engine quite a way over to the passenger side (as with all front engined sylva cars) as the tunnel points that way and gives the passenger a smaller footwell than the driver. The photo gives you an idea of how far over.

With a QED (I think) sump I still need to make a bulge in my bonnet to accomodate the engine - but thats on a phoenix bodyshell anyway so not that interesting.

Chris
Rescued attachment Image16_small.jpg

billy - 17/1/05 at 08:41 PM

mmmmm id think real long about not having the engine slap bang in the middle, its the uneven balance of weight id be worried about. on mine i seem to remember cutting a chunk off the side of the bellhousing. my engine is in the middle and to get theunder bonnet clearance the engine is sat quite low(westfield mounts) and this dos make the prop at a bit of an angle. but ive found it to be ok- done some good speeds and no sign of vibes. cheers

gazza285 - 17/1/05 at 09:23 PM

Do it Mallock style, offset the engine well into the passenger footwell, move it back another foot and put the pedal box under the carbs.

NS Dev - 18/1/05 at 12:20 AM

quote:
Originally posted by ned
I have the same problem, I've trial fitted my engine in the chassis, and even having widened the tunnel I need to have the engine skewed slightly to the passenger side. It's the ribbed part of the bellhousing where the starter motor is the clouts the upright member at the opening of the transmission tuneel on the drivers side.

I considered grinding a bit off the housing but was concerned about weakening the bellhousing.

It will be interesting to see what other responses you get as I have yet to make my mounts too!

Ned.

That's interesting. The clearance problem really depends on how far back the engine is. The rib on the bellhousing doesn't foul on mine, well, the master cyl fouls the lug on the bellhousing before I can get it back far enough to foul on the rib!

Mike R has been over this evening and encouraged me to take the step of moving the engine further forward again! I didn't want to do this, but it seems (looking at other photos on here) that I had my engine further back anyway. The cam pulleys were approx 1.5" back from the rear lip of the nosecone. I am going to move the engine forward by 27mm, which will then give me around 10mm clearance between the end of the clutch master cyl. and the bellhousing lug.

Billy - I wouldn't say that the engine offset is bad for weight distribution, remember often there is only the driver in the car, the offset engine helps to even this out.

I would say my engine is currently less angled than that in the pheonix, and I will take off a bit more angle when I move the engine forwards to clear the cyl.

Ned - I'd watch out that if you are hitting the rib on the b-housing onto the chassis, if you are using a cable clutch ( I am using SAAB concentric release) that the release arm will probably foul on the chassis too!

[Edited on 18/1/05 by NS Dev]

chriscook - 18/1/05 at 08:55 AM

Mine went where the gearbox mount on the chassis put it really - it puts the gear stick in the right place for starters - which might be worth considering if you haven't already....

ned - 18/1/05 at 09:34 AM

NSdev,
I have a tilton concentric hydraulic clutch and I also moved my pedal box (bottom mounted) across slightly as well. The flange of the bellhousing is about 1" in front of the footwell bulkhead if that gives a better idea of how far back my engine is. I don't know how far from the nosecone as I've not had it on with the engine in place yet. I am going to removed the cambelt cover and grind the top of the rocker cover to increase the headroom for the engine.

Billy,
I know what you're saying about the weight distribution being out, but when the driver is in the car, the weight is then offset to the drivers side with a centrally mounted engine. Unless you carry a passenger, it doesn't make that much difference imho. It can only be a few kg's to one side..

Ned.

NS Dev - 18/1/05 at 12:41 PM

Ned, I have removed the lip from the cam cover, which, as you said, has helped a bit. I am now moving the engine forward so that the bellhousing/engine flange/bolts now will be ahead of the front end of the clutch master cylinder. This does mean that the engine is further forward than I would like, but then the other alternatives are butchering the chassis, which I am reluctant to do on a grand scale as it is powder coated and I have riveted and bonded the ally floor in now!

I think the position will be similar to a Vauxhall Westfield, the cambelt on these usually sits in line with the back edge of the nosecone, which is how mine will be.

I looked at all posibilities last night, there is no room to move the pedal box over as there will then be no room for the accelerator pedal! I cant fit pendant pedals in cos the brake bias link will foul the steering column, ven if I cleverly put one cylinder each side of the column.

I could put the brake cylinders where they normally go near the floor (floor pivot pedals) and the clutch as pendant, but I don't like this idea much either!!

I could cut out the bulkhead and move the whole pedal assy backwards, but then I shorten the available driver space (although the ST chassis is quite long in the drivers area) but the fabrication would be nasty and messy, would really want the chassis chopping out to do it properly, which i don't really want to do!

Think I will just go with moving the engine forwards by 27mm, which will allow the pesky bellhousing bolt/lug to clear the end of the master cylinder!

NS Dev - 18/1/05 at 12:48 PM

Interestingly, the engine looks a long way forward in the pheonix, as well as over to one side.

NS Dev - 18/1/05 at 12:51 PM

quote:
Originally posted by chriscook
Mine went where the gearbox mount on the chassis put it really - it puts the gear stick in the right place for starters - which might be worth considering if you haven't already....

My ST chassis doesn't have a "gearbox mount" as such. There is a strip down each side of the tunnel, and I will mount to this, but it's 300mm or so long each side so not really an accurate locator! I am extending the gearshift back by 5 inches to get it in a nice position, as westy do on theirs.

ned - 18/1/05 at 01:01 PM

NSDev,

I cut the tranny tunnel side flange/part beyond the last vertcial support on the st/luego style bias bottom mount pedal box off to move the box over slightly (does taht make sense?!). I have a top mount throttle pedal and have widened the tunnel by the thickness of the vertical tube at the front of the tunnel's mouth on the driver side. On the passenger side I changed the vertical rail on that side to go to where the bottom engine bay rail runs to the passenger bulkhead, hence the extra width in my tunnel to get the engine further back.

Ned.

chriscook - 18/1/05 at 01:33 PM

My chassis is a sylva variant not the ST one - I don't know how the g/b mount is on the newer chassis but mine was already drilled for the type-9.

I suspect the engine looks forward in my phoenix because the chassis is smaller than a locost. If you think about it in relation to the driver the engine must actually be further back in the phoenix because I do not need an extension on the gearshift to reach it comfortably (I've not got unfeasibly long arms!)

I'm hoping to get the engine in at some point this weekend to check clearances etc. if you want to have a look then let me know - i'm in atherstone which I don't think is too far from you.

Chris

NS Dev - 18/1/05 at 04:11 PM

Ahhh, another local! Cool, I'm in Barwell, near Hinckley, so only a few miles away.

Do you go to the Ansty Arms pub meet ups?

I would definitely like to come over and have a look at some point, it would be interesting to compare

NS Dev - 18/1/05 at 04:16 PM

quote:
Originally posted by ned
NSDev,

I cut the tranny tunnel side flange/part beyond the last vertcial support on the st/luego style bias bottom mount pedal box off to move the box over slightly (does taht make sense?!). I have a top mount throttle pedal and have widened the tunnel by the thickness of the vertical tube at the front of the tunnel's mouth on the driver side. On the passenger side I changed the vertical rail on that side to go to where the bottom engine bay rail runs to the passenger bulkhead, hence the extra width in my tunnel to get the engine further back.

Ned.

Ned, where are you putting your clutch master cylinder then? I can see what you mean about widening the tunnel by 25mm by the pedal box, and cutting the flange off the outer end of the box. I can do the same but that would simply make the bellhousing/master cylinder problem even worse.

I'm a bit confused, are your master cyl's 3 in a row through the bulkhead in front of the pedal box, if so, how does the clutch one miss the bellhousing????

ned - 18/1/05 at 04:38 PM

the bellhousing is skewed because the engine is off centre, so it's quite close, but it does miss it. Possibly becuase ts biased so much towards the passenger side.

Ned.

[Edited on 18/1/05 by ned]

NS Dev - 18/1/05 at 05:19 PM

Ahhh, right! That must be quite a long way over then, skewed mine 35mm off centre and it still hits by around 12mm.

Will the prop be ok with that sort of angle?

I don't know, just wondering!?

Thanks for the help, I guess i'd like to get the engine further back but the closeness of everything is stopping me!

chriscook - 18/1/05 at 07:05 PM

Used to live in burbage until our landlord came back from overseas and we had to move out.

There are actually 3 of us here, 2 phoenixes being built - mine and a zx9 one, plus another housmate races in the locost series (but that car doesn't live here). There also used to be a Cossie Turbo fury here but he bmoved out when he ought a house with his girlfriend.

Never been to the Ansty Arms meet - aren't they on the first wednesday of the month?

Chris

NS Dev - 19/1/05 at 08:09 AM

Yes, it's usually the first Wednesday, MikeR (from Nuneaton) usually co-ordinates things.