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Zetec water rail

richard munnis - 15/1/16 at 08:38 PM

Hi Folks
What is the advantages of running a water rail and can it do away with the header tank i have Thank you in advance any pictures would be appreciated cheers Richard

big_wasa - 15/1/16 at 08:58 PM

Yes it's super neat and very minimalistic but it doesn't alter the fact it doesn't really work properly in a road car.

Some will tell you there's work just fine but most will agree it's just jewellery.

I've had two and still went back to the factory stat.

britishtrident - 15/1/16 at 09:04 PM

Only two reason for fitting one (1) there is no other way to get the engine to fit ie: fitting into a Mk1/2 Escort (2) You have a need to produce lots of boiling water.

jeffw - 16/1/16 at 06:31 AM

I suggest you search for Raceline Water Rail and get a slightly more rounded response.

big_wasa - 16/1/16 at 10:17 AM

Better still I would love to see a poll.

Have you owned one and how did you get on with it.

A) works just fine and looks great. B) looks great but just doesn't work as well as stock.

I've owned two so my opinion is my experience and not what I've seen posted.

britishtrident - 16/1/16 at 11:05 AM

Anybody who has got one to work has either had to resort to bodges or leave out the thermostat. It was designed at the end of the carbuerettor era, in those days nobody fitted thermostats but with modern fuel injection running without a thermostat is not viable.
The designer seemed not to understand that to open car thermostats need the hot coolant to freely circulate over the thermostat bulb even when the thermostat is closed.

jeffw - 16/1/16 at 12:25 PM

Dear God, another BT rant....

If you really are that concerned about the Raceline waterrail why don't you ring up the designer (Pete at Raceline) and get some facts.

r1_pete - 16/1/16 at 05:52 PM

Mine worked fine, and regularly tours Europe with its new owner.

I did have the heater piped in so it did bypass - almost...

enginedone

matt5964 - 16/1/16 at 06:51 PM

You could look at the dunnell one also

http://www.dunnellengines.com/datasheets/RMP%202052%20Zetec%20Water%20Rail.pdf

rm0rgan - 16/1/16 at 07:42 PM

I have one fitted (well, a variant of). It worked fine while moving but struggled to manage heat in traffic so re fitted thermostat and header tank and job was a carrot. Think it looks neater than a standard set up even with the header tank fitted.

Description

Description

Description

[Edited on 16/1/16 by rm0rgan]

richard munnis - 16/1/16 at 08:05 PM

Hi
Nice looking job can you please tell me what your header tank is off cheers Richard

rm0rgan - 17/1/16 at 08:52 AM

Renault Clio or Kangoo but there are others that work just as well.

big_wasa - 17/1/16 at 09:43 AM

Metro Mgtf and Volvo C70 are neat and compact.

GRBBONGO - 17/1/16 at 10:27 AM

Just follow the advise to the letter in the attached article and you ll have no problems at all. I installed mine onto my new Zetec install and have had no problems at all. Just make sure the pressure rad cap on the thermostat tower is replaced with a sealed type cap. I was very sceptical when I purchased mine after reading some negative reviews but had no choice due to amount of space between engine and bulkhead. I'm now glad I have it as looks nice and tidies the engine bay up a touch.
http://forum.wscc.co.uk/forum/index.php/files/download/34-westfield-world-issue-five-2009/

rm0rgan - 17/1/16 at 02:46 PM

quote:
Originally posted by GRBBONGO
Just follow the advise to the letter in the attached article and you ll have no problems at all. I installed mine onto my new Zetec install and have had no problems at all. Just make sure the pressure rad cap on the thermostat tower is replaced with a sealed type cap. I was very sceptical when I purchased mine after reading some negative reviews but had no choice due to amount of space between engine and bulkhead. I'm now glad I have it as looks nice and tidies the engine bay up a touch.
http://forum.wscc.co.uk/forum/index.php/files/download/34-westfield-world-issue-five-2009/

You might need to copy and paste the article as it's members only :-)

GRBBONGO - 17/1/16 at 06:24 PM

thanks I didn't think. Will try and paste it.

Ugg10 - 17/1/16 at 07:05 PM

quote:
Originally posted by rm0rgan

Description

[Edited on 16/1/16 by rm0rgan]

Not sure about the new hard top though :-)

J90rdn - 17/1/16 at 11:21 PM

quote:
Originally posted by rm0rgan

quote:
Originally posted by GRBBONGO
Just follow the advise to the letter in the attached article and you ll have no problems at all. I installed mine onto my new Zetec install and have had no problems at all. Just make sure the pressure rad cap on the thermostat tower is replaced with a sealed type cap. I was very sceptical when I purchased mine after reading some negative reviews but had no choice due to amount of space between engine and bulkhead. I'm now glad I have it as looks nice and tidies the engine bay up a touch.
http://forum.wscc.co.uk/forum/index.php/files/download/34-westfield-world-issue-five-2009/

You might need to copy and paste the article as it's members only :-)

Would be interested to see also if you can C&P

Rob Allison - 18/1/16 at 12:39 AM

When you understand how the standard stat block works then its easy to see what water rails will work. Its a modern engine and oil heating is a big thing.

Paul Turner - 18/1/16 at 12:47 PM

I had a Raceline Water rail on mine when I fitted the Zetec back in 2001. It looked great. Raceline have a top notch reputation, it simplified the plumbing and since I was removing a x-flow I already had the stat housing, cap and stat to refit.

I have no heater fitted and drilling a hole in the stat to ensure some circulation before the stat opened did sound like a bodge but went ahead since, as I said above, Raceline have a top reputation.

Initially the system appeared to bleed the air out with no issues and the expansion bottle filled and emptied just like it had with the x-flow fitted but unlike the x-flow the gauge never read a constant temp, it was up and down over a 20 degree range. The sensor and gauge were the ones from the x-flow so they were compatible but to be sure I changed the sensor which made no difference.

Drilled another hole in the stat which made no difference.

Then the system pressurised and dumped all its water on the drive after a short leisurely spring drive. Presumed it would be the head gasket (engine was used strait from Mondeo) so stripped head off but everything looked OK with the original gasket so a bit of a mystery.

While it was apart I took the committee decision to fit the standard stat housing, stat etc and plumb it in as Ford intended with a pressurised header. 15 years and many 1000 of miles later I have never regretted my decision. Rock steady gauge reading which gives you a bit of confidence. Shortly after converting it back I picked up one of the rare alloy stat housings off and old Orion and have since replaced all the dodgy looking rubber with nice silicone pipes.

The one good thing about the Raceline rail was selling it on e-bay, got almost what I had paid since it appeared Raceline were out of stock when I auctioned it.

I have bought more stuff from Raceline since, never had an issue but I could not recommend the water rail.

Below are pics of what it looks like and how I connected it all together.

big_wasa - 18/1/16 at 01:58 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Paul Turner

Drilled another hole in the stat which made no difference.

My experience was similar except the extra drillings made the overcooling worse. The advice was three around the stat to allow a more even flow over the bulb.

Worked great at tick over.

Worked great if you thrashed it.

On a steady run it would only get to 30~40 deg and that's not good for a zetec or emissions.

Rob Allison - 18/1/16 at 02:33 PM

Did you not have the oil heat exchanger connected?

Paul Turner - 18/1/16 at 02:46 PM

Never had an oil cooler fitted to mine. On a hot summers day the oil only gets to 90 degrees stood in traffic and in spring/autumn barely gets to 80 degrees. The oil stat would only open once a flood thus I would be carrying extra weight and complications about for no benefit.

jeffw - 18/1/16 at 02:52 PM

My Raceline Waterrail works fine. Water temp comes up to 90 deg and then cycles upto 96 deg before the fan comes in and then it drops to 92 deg.

Don't have a problem with over-cooling, over-heating or low oil temps.

britishtrident - 18/1/16 at 02:55 PM

A though occured to me a heavily modded engine that pushes the rad heat exchange capcity to near the limit will always will suffer less from overheat-over cool cycles than a bog standard engine.

In the month before christmas I watched one of the americam TST seminars on Cooling Systems in the 21 Century, it was a marathon video and I can't rember half of the finer detail they gave but one of the issues they highlighted was that the control of the flow through cooling systems is going to become a lot more complex and that manufacturers are progressively increasing by-pass flow.

A problem with lack of by-pass flow they mentioned was that it has been identified as a major cause of failure of water pumps with plastic impellers, when the out flow from the pump is blocked the exra torque required to spin the impeller against can cause the shaft to start slipping in the impeller.

Rob Allison - 18/1/16 at 05:43 PM

I'm not on about an oil cooler. The zetec requires heated oil. It should have one of these fitted
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big_wasa - 18/1/16 at 07:16 PM

So that's the Modine style heat exchange as found on the st170.

It's job is to bring the oil up to temp quicker for emission purposes.

How would it help with the water rail ? Genuine question......

Paul Turner - 18/1/16 at 07:25 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Rob Allison
I'm not on about an oil cooler. The zetec requires heated oil. It should have one of these fitted

Well I can honestly say I have never seen one fitted or heard of one being fitted to a Seven before. Ford did not fit one to the Mondeo Zetec I used in the car when I first converted so whats changed.

I suspect as Big Wasa suggests its fitted to the ST170 for emission purposes. Since those rules don't apply to sevens its an unnecessary complication. Just keep the revs down until the oil warms up a bit and make sure you use a good quality oil of the correct viscosity.

There would be a huge problem for me if it was really required, there is no space to fit fit one.

GRBBONGO - 19/1/16 at 10:02 AM

Rob Allison - 26/1/16 at 01:32 AM

I have tried to find a good lay out of the zetecs cooling system and the way it works but cant find any.
So this is the basic explanation. The zetec is a tight tolerance modern engine which has to warm up quickly. This is done by allowing the cooling water to only circulate around a small system. This is split in 2 parts. One is the engine, oil and heater matrix the other is the radiator. But the oil and heater matrix part are split too.
If you look at a zetec thermostat you will see an extra disc on its base. This closes off the heater side until the oil side is warm. So from cold the water will flow around the engine only. Once warm it will flow to the heater matrix. Then next to the radiator.
If you have a water rail which does not allow the water to flow around the engine it will get localised heating and can boil the water within the head due to no cooling flow.
When the stat finally gets warm enough to open there is higher pressure boiled water that then passes through the rad and expansion tank. Thats when you get it boiling over. Drilling holes in the stat doesnt help as it then has a bypass route and doesnt warm up quick as the hole cooling system is being circulated.
Now with water rails you need the flow to pass near the stat or it will just stay closed until heat eventually gets to it and it opens. Again very hot boiled water passes through to the rad.
The better water rails will have a water take off point near the stat base so the stat will always be in a good flow of the cooling water. That take off need to flow around the engine how ever you pipe it is up to you. Either through an oil modine or car heater matrix. But you can just deadhead it, it need to get pumped around somewhere.
I dont think it has anything to do with emmissions. The ST170 deals with emmissions by the VCT system

Paul Turner - 26/1/16 at 09:44 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Rob Allison
I have tried to find a good lay out of the zetecs cooling system and the way it works but cant find any.

This is how mine is plumbed in and has been since 2001.

It uses the standard Ford stat housing but I don't have a heater, the outlet in the stat housing is blanked off and when I made the bypass pipe I did not put a heater union on the end. The layout of the pipework replicates exactly what the pipework in a Mondeo does. It works perfectly, no overheating, no overcooling, no airlocks. Refilling is easy.

The stat is different to old fashioned stats in that it has the extra disc. When the engine is cold and the main stat is closed this disc effectively is open and allows water to circulate around the engine preventing hot spots and helping the engine heat up quicker. As the main stat opens the disc closes which allows water to circulate round the radiator. I normal use the engine temp is regulated to some extent by water circulating via both the main and disc, the disc only closes the bypass circuit when the stat is fully open which is above normal engine operating temp.

In the Mondeo/Focus water flows via the heater and bypass during the initial warm up phase which helps heat the car up quicker.

In contrast if you use the Raceline Water Rail the stat used is the old fashioned type. When its closed there is no flow unless you have a heater and even then there is the issue that the stat is at the end of a dead leg and relies on the conduction of heat through the water to start opening the stat which eventually happens very suddenly. This is not good for the engine as it allows a sudden flow of cold water form the rad to circulate into a very hot engine and can cause issues down the line if not immediately. The Raceline solution is to drill additional holes in the stat to allow flow during warm up and whilst this no doubt helps it is not the way the old fashioned stats were designed to work. The same stat in a x-flow or Pinto is virtually in the head, not at the end of a dead leg thus it received hot water progressively as the engine heated up.

GRBBONGO - 26/1/16 at 10:14 AM

GRBBONGO - 26/1/16 at 10:15 AM

GRBBONGO - 26/1/16 at 10:27 AM

Unable to copy and paste the instructions from the Westfield newsletter but pretty straight forward as shown above with no heater. Ignore the Stant cap cover, this is a sealed type cap with no pressure release. This system relies on the pressure cap of the expansion tank which should be higher than the thermostat if possible.
Temp comes up quite quickly from cold start and remains pretty stable between 85-95 degrees.

Rena - 15/2/16 at 10:10 AM

quote:
Originally posted by GRBBONGO

Unable to copy and paste the instructions from the Westfield newsletter but pretty straight forward as shown above with no heater. Ignore the Stant cap cover, this is a sealed type cap with no pressure release. This system relies on the pressure cap of the expansion tank which should be higher than the thermostat if possible.
Temp comes up quite quickly from cold start and remains pretty stable between 85-95 degrees.

Which thermostat are you using? With or without bypass valve? Hole in the thermostat rim?