The reason Iīm using waterrail is because the man who started my build had bought it and I donīt have the standard housing.
It should work, why do otherwise Raceline manufacture them?
Hi,
Just got my car finished and took it for a trip this weekend and a couple of problems occured, one of them was overcooling.
My setup is a 2 L Zetec with standard 2 L waterpump, Raceline waterrail with expansiontank.
When normal cruising the engine never gets over 60-70 degrees. When standing in a traffic jam, over 80 degrees.
I have read somewhere I should use a waterpump from a 1,8 L engine. Whatīs the difference between the 2L and 1,8L waterpump?
Is it possible this is the problem?
Which thermostat should I use? I think I have the one that came with the waterrail.
Any other suggestion how to solve the overcooling?
The standard Ford fittment in northern Europe is a 92degree thermostat, in hotter climates an 88 degree stat is fitted, normal fan cut-in temp would
be close to 100c. The engine and the ECU mapping are designed to operate at this temperature.
An 88 degree in a standard Mondeo will normally see the engine temperature cycling between 90 and 92 c in normal cruising, in traffic up to 105c is
normal.
Fitting even the 88 degree stat when fitted to Raceline water rail will produce much more extreme temperature highs and lows.
Which 2 litre Zetec do you have. Is it a Silvertop (Mondeo to 98 approx.) or Blacktop (later Mk 1 Mondeo and Focus).
If its a Silvertop you need to fit an Escort (and that is the important word) Zetec waterpump. If its a Blacktop you need to fit an idler pulley to
enable the waterpump to run off the back (smooth side) of the belt.
I run an 88 degree stat but the later 92 degree stat is fine. Just prefer mine to be 4 degrees cooler.
Junk the Raceline Water rail, its an expensive piece of carp. Fit the standard Ford housing, stat and all the bypass pipes (see drawing in my photo
archive) and you will have an engine that runs at a constant temp all summer and if you are brave enough winter. Mine been like it now for 13 years
with no issues. Read enough about problems with the Raceline rail to know its simple trouble.
Doesn't matter which water pump as long as its spinning the right way.
I had a race line water rail, same thing, overcooling most of the time, boiling over once or twice.
Problem is the thermostat is too far away from the head and there's no provision for a bypass hose.
Go back to the standard OEM thermo housing and plumb it up correctly. I did that and had no more issues.
I have a blacktop and an idler pulley just like the picture below.
The reason Iīm using waterrail is because the man who started my build had bought it and I donīt have the standard housing.
It should work, why do otherwise Raceline manufacture them?
My Raceline waterrail works fine.
quote:
Originally posted by Rena
I have a blacktop and an idler pulley just like the picture below.
quote:
Originally posted by Rena
The reason Iīm using waterrail is because the man who started my build had bought it and I donīt have the standard housing.
It should work, why do otherwise Raceline manufacture them?
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
My Raceline waterrail works fine.
quote:
Originally posted by Paul Turner
quote:
Originally posted by Rena
I have a blacktop and an idler pulley just like the picture below.
No need to change your waterpump, your setup is correct for a Blacktop.
quote:
Originally posted by Rena
The reason Iīm using waterrail is because the man who started my build had bought it and I donīt have the standard housing.
It should work, why do otherwise Raceline manufacture them?
It does not work because the stat is in a dead area and relies on heat transfer instead of flow to open the stat, Raceline recommend a hole is drilled in the stat to allow some flow during warm up which is a bodge.
Raceline designed the water rail to make it look like a BDA set up and on the Caterhams they used a standard Caterham supplied BDR top hose, very simple and cheap.
Get a standard housing (off a Silvertop since the Blacktop ones have no drilling for the temp sender) and follow my drawing, you will have no further issues. then sell the water rail on e-bay.
Water rails were devised to make easier to install these eengines is Mk1/2 Escorts and Capri's without bulkhead modifications.
The Raceline water rail has a couple of design flaws one of which is major.
Raceline must have invested fairly substantial sums in getting the patterns made for the casting + cost of manufacturing in batches, to change the
pattern would cost money.
The major problem is lack of warm by-pass coolant circulation around the bulb of thermostat which is fairly distant from the cylinder head coolant
exit. As a result the engine will be close to or at boiling point before the thermostat reaches opening temperature.
quote:
Originally posted by Rena
Or is it a Silvertop? I have not learned how to see the difference. I just know itīs enginecode and thats EDDC.
quote:
Originally posted by Paul Turner
quote:
Originally posted by Rena
Or is it a Silvertop? I have not learned how to see the difference. I just know itīs enginecode and thats EDDC.
Its a Blacktop with a Silvertop cam cover, its exactly what I have in mine.
quote:
Originally posted by Rena
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
My Raceline waterrail works fine.
Which thermostat are you using?
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
quote:
Originally posted by Rena
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
My Raceline waterrail works fine.
Which thermostat are you using?
From memory it is 88 deg c with two small holes drilled in it. You may have the rail setup wrong...
In the picture you posted you have a line from the uppermost connection near the cap. This is only used if the cap lifts due to overpressure, you appear to have it 'T'ed off which suggests you have one connection to the expansion tank (correct) and one line to the rad bleed connector (wrong).
I have got a big radiator from an old Volvo, could it be the problem? Too big radiator?
Where you the connection is fine if you have an unpressurised cap however a real issue is that I cannot see any by-pass at all in the picture normally
the by-pass is connected on to the currently blanked connection are on the side of the rail. By-pass flow back to the suction side of the water pump
either through a separate hose or as part of heating plumbing is esential for good running, emmisions, economy and long engine life. I also recently
learned not having suffient by-pass flow is one of the causes of water pump impeller problems on engines with plastic water pump impellers.
Drilling the thermostat is a bodge that gets the thermostat to work in fashion but it is no substitute for by-pass flow.
By-pass flow is intended to ensure an even temperature from the bottom to the top of the engine it creates internal cirulation which keeps the
bottom end of the engine warm preventing bore wear, acidic condensation in the oil, it gives quicker warm up, reduces differential expansion between
head and block ( sometimes called head shuffle one of the main causes of head gasket failure) and ensures the thermostat responds to changes in
temperature due to sudden changes in load, it also reduces the load on the water pump and increases the useful heat energy available on each stroke
and reduces the energy wasted by the water pump.
The way you have it at the moment is wrong. Once you have bleed the rad you need to cap off the bleed (put a large bolt in the tube with a jubillee
clip). Then remove the T from that line and run straight to the expansion tank.
Assuming you have a pressure cap on the rail of course.
[Edited on 10/8/15 by jeffw]
quote:
Originally posted by Rena
I have got a big radiator from an old Volvo, could it be the problem? Too big radiator?
quote:
Originally posted by Paul Turner
quote:
Originally posted by Rena
I have a blacktop and an idler pulley just like the picture below.
No need to change your waterpump, your setup is correct for a Blacktop.
quote:
Originally posted by Rena
The reason Iīm using waterrail is because the man who started my build had bought it and I donīt have the standard housing.
It should work, why do otherwise Raceline manufacture them?
It does not work because the stat is in a dead area and relies on heat transfer instead of flow to open the stat, Raceline recommend a hole is drilled in the stat to allow some flow during warm up which is a bodge.
Raceline designed the water rail to make it look like a BDA set up and on the Caterhams they used a standard Caterham supplied BDR top hose, very simple and cheap.
Get a standard housing (off a Silvertop since the Blacktop ones have no drilling for the temp sender) and follow my drawing, you will have no further issues. then sell the water rail on e-bay.
Are you sure your gauge tells the truth? Temp seems very low on a run, implies the thermostat would never open!
quote:
Originally posted by Dingz
Are you sure your gauge tells the truth? Temp seems very low on a run, implies the thermostat would never open!
quote:
Originally posted by r1_pete
You can buy thermostats with a hole in the rim, they have a toggle through them to prevent blockage.
[Edited on 10/8/15 by r1_pete]
If a hole drilled in the thermostat was the perfect solution why did Ford spend countless amounts of money developing a complicated thermostat housing and bypass circuit. Could it possibly be the simple fact Fords solution is better.
We get it Paul Turner & British Trident. The Ford solution is better and we are all idiots for using the Raceline waterrail.
However telling the OP over and over again he is an idiot for using the Raceline waterrail in a evangelical way isn't helping his issue with his
waterrail.
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
We get it Paul Turner & British Trident. The Ford solution is better and we are all idiots for using the Raceline waterrail.
However telling the OP over and over again he is an idiot for using the Raceline waterrail in a evangelical way isn't helping his issue with his waterrail.
I used a raceline water rail on my last setup.
After initial problems, I used a seal cap rather than conventional rad cap on it. The small outlet just below the cap I ran to a header tank, and the
bottom outlet from the header went to the bottom rad hose. I also has a 4mm hole in the thermostat.
That sorted the cooling perfectly. No issues at all.
However, I agree teh "best" solution is the original thermo housing on the back of the engine, but the rail can work just fine.
quote:
Originally posted by Paul Turner
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
We get it Paul Turner & British Trident. The Ford solution is better and we are all idiots for using the Raceline waterrail.
However telling the OP over and over again he is an idiot for using the Raceline waterrail in a evangelical way isn't helping his issue with his waterrail.
When have British Trident and myself ever called anyone an idiot, please show us and if you cannot please apologise.
For good measure I have reported your post.
The OP has an issue and its the same issue many people have had using the Raceline water rail. When I fitted the Zetec I favoured the Raceline rail simply because of its looks and ease of plumbing but after taking to several owners and reading about issues (mainly on the Westfield site) I took the decision to use the Ford housing, a decision I have not regretted.
The Retro Ford water rail appears to be a good solution for installations with limited space and it does incorporate the correct thermostat in the correct position with the provision of a bypass circuit. Never used one so no idea if it works.
[Edited on 11/8/15 by Paul Turner]
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
Feel free to report it, you are being very strident with your views on this and I'm certainly not going to apologies for paraphrasing your responses as calling us "idiots", even if you didn't use the word it was certainly inferred.
Iīm just interested in how to get my waterrail working and give it a try.
If it doesnīt work - well, then I have to change to the original Ford solution.
However, I will give it a try. Iīm not a mechanin, thatīs why I ask a lot of "stupid" question.
OK - we have come to the conclusion my waterpump is correct. Next step is to check my plumbing. Below there is a simple sketch how my plumbing is done
at the moment, which a tought was correct, but unfortunately not.
How should it be done?
The thermostat I have come from Raceline and I have no idea how many degrees. I know there are at least one bypass hole. If I want to buy another
thermostat, which one will suit?
THANKS!
The hole in the theromostat is bleed hole, by-pass is much larger flow that by-passes the radiator.
Enlarged multiple bleed holes will allow the thermostat to sort of work but aren't a substitute for by-pass circulation.
Since about 1970 until quite recently 100% the by-pass flow on Fords has been a continuous through the heater matrix from the cylinder head back to
the water pump. This type of heater controls the heater outlet temperature by flaps and is called an air blending heater . Older car designs
used a water valve controlled heater.
If a water valve heater or no heater is fitted in a home build car an alternative path for the by-pass flow has to be provided.
[Edited on 12/8/15 by britishtrident]
Ignoring the debate over whether the water rail is any good (and I agree it's not and you should have a by-pass flow, but keep repeating that
isn't advancing the discusion)...
Your diagram should work providing your rail cap is a blanking type (flat behind the top). The rail is a dead end when the stat is closed but with a
bleed hole(s) there should be enough flow for it to open/close once hot (even if that is sluggish).
Given you're experiencing apparent over cooling, the first thing to check is the actual engine temps with an IR thermometer. That way yo know
that it's not just the guage misreading. Also compre the temp at the engine block and end of the rail and the rad. As the temp sensor is as
remote as the stat, if there's no flow, the engine could be hot but the guage be cold (and stat shut).
Second (if engine, stat/sensor and rad are similar) it could be your stat is stuck open, too low a temp or the beed holes are alowing too much flow
through, giving constant radiator cooling.
This is a cut and paste from a similar thread, the only thing I will add is that I did drill one 3mm hole in the stat rim, which provided enough flow
to heat the bulb on the stat. In the 6 or so years since I built it, the car has toured Europe, in hot and cold climates, gone through 2 owners, both
of which have been in regular contact, and both have said the cooling system has never given a moments trouble.
This is how I plumbed my zetec / raceline, and it worked perfect, and is still fine the new owner has dome several thou UK and Europe.
This is a header tank installation, an expansion tank works in a subtly different way.
Raceline cap is a plain type Austin 1300
Header tank is some BMW and incorporates the pressure cap, I think I have another one of these if you want it.
Pipe from just below the raceline cap to the small connector on the pressure side of the tank, this keeps the block / rad full, and bleeds the air
out too.
Bottom hose to the bottom of the header tank.
Pressure cap on tank must be the highest point of the cooling system, otherwise steam will form at the highest point and force water out of the
pressure cap, due to localised overheating & increased pressure as the steam pockets build, hence with the pressure cap at the highest point the
steam pocket builds in the tank and there is no localised overheating, provided the block is vented properly, and the pipe from the raceline neck to
the header tank does this.
Description
With your overcooling issue, look to the thermostat, it is clearly not opening and closing properly to regulate engine temperature, try restricting /
clamping one of the rad hoses, and see how much quicker your motor warms, that is effectively what the stat does.
[Edited on 12/8/15 by r1_pete]
quote:
Originally posted by adithorp
Ignoring the debate over whether the water rail is any good (and I agree it's not and you should have a by-pass flow, but keep repeating that isn't advancing the discusion)...
Your diagram should work providing your rail cap is a blanking type (flat behind the top). The rail is a dead end when the stat is closed but with a bleed hole(s) there should be enough flow for it to open/close once hot (even if that is sluggish).
Given you're experiencing apparent over cooling, the first thing to check is the actual engine temps with an IR thermometer. That way yo know that it's not just the guage misreading. Also compre the temp at the engine block and end of the rail and the rad. As the temp sensor is as remote as the stat, if there's no flow, the engine could be hot but the guage be cold (and stat shut).
Second (if engine, stat/sensor and rad are similar) it could be your stat is stuck open, too low a temp or the beed holes are alowing too much flow through, giving constant radiator cooling.
quote:
Originally posted by r1_pete
This is a cut and paste from a similar thread, the only thing I will add is that I did drill one 3mm hole in the stat rim, which provided enough flow to heat the bulb on the stat. In the 6 or so years since I built it, the car has toured Europe, in hot and cold climates, gone through 2 owners, both of which have been in regular contact, and both have said the cooling system has never given a moments trouble.
This is how I plumbed my zetec / raceline, and it worked perfect, and is still fine the new owner has dome several thou UK and Europe.
This is a header tank installation, an expansion tank works in a subtly different way.
Raceline cap is a plain type Austin 1300
Header tank is some BMW and incorporates the pressure cap, I think I have another one of these if you want it.
Pipe from just below the raceline cap to the small connector on the pressure side of the tank, this keeps the block / rad full, and bleeds the air out too.
Bottom hose to the bottom of the header tank.
Pressure cap on tank must be the highest point of the cooling system, otherwise steam will form at the highest point and force water out of the pressure cap, due to localised overheating & increased pressure as the steam pockets build, hence with the pressure cap at the highest point the steam pocket builds in the tank and there is no localised overheating, provided the block is vented properly, and the pipe from the raceline neck to the header tank does this.
Description
With your overcooling issue, look to the thermostat, it is clearly not opening and closing properly to regulate engine temperature, try restricting / clamping one of the rad hoses, and see how much quicker your motor warms, that is effectively what the stat does.
[Edited on 12/8/15 by r1_pete]
quote:
Originally posted by Rena
It looks like there are problems with my thermostat. Which on should I buy? Is it a regular Mondeo thermostat?
I used an MGB 88 degree thermostat, not by design, it was just as I wanted to see if the hole in the rim would work, it did, and I never bothered opening it up to replace it with a new one. Any 54mm stat without the bypass close off disc should do you.
Before the sensor starts, I have decided to replace my water rail with the original thermostat housing. I hope there are enough space, but are there different original housings? Maybe different sizes that works with my 2,0 litre zetec.
The best stat housing is the very early silver top one found on an Orion. It's alloy. Forget this one as you won't find one.
Next best is the silver top. Next best is the early black top. Worst is the last of the black tops. They cut corners, they leak and fail.
Main difference in the rest is the sensor bosses.
quote:
Originally posted by big_wasa
The best stat housing is the very early silver top one found on an Orion. It's alloy. Forget this one as you won't find one.
Next best is the silver top. Next best is the early black top. Worst is the last of the black tops. They cut corners, they leak and fail.
Main difference in the rest is the sensor bosses.
quote:
Originally posted by Rena
NEW FORD ESCORT MK4 MK5 MK6 FIESTA MK3 MK4 SIERRA 1.8 D ALLOY THERMOSTAT HOUSING
Will this one fit?
Raceline water rail works 100% spot on. It just needs to be plumbed in correctly with non pressure rad cap replacing the pressure rated one they
supply. If you take a look on the other raceline thread below this one on the main menu I have added pics showing exactly how it needs to be. I got
all this info from an article in a previous Westfield newsletter. Trust me it works and looks lovely too. 700 miles and no problems so far. My fan
sensor switch is wired/plumbed into the rad housing between the inlet and outlet.
here's a standard zetec one
thermostat-1
thermostat-2
hope that helps 
quote:
Originally posted by HowardB
here's a standard zetec one
thermostat-1
thermostat-2
hope that helps
I think it's about 80mm or so.
Part back in the depths of the frozen garage
Before putting my engine together again, a short question.
Should I have a rubber-sealing around the thermostat rim? Or is it enough with a gasket between the rail and housing?
quote:
Originally posted by Rena
Before putting my engine together again, a short question.
Should I have a rubber-sealing around the thermostat rim? Or is it enough with a gasket between the rail and housing?
quote:
Originally posted by Paul Turner
quote:
Originally posted by Rena
Before putting my engine together again, a short question.
Should I have a rubber-sealing around the thermostat rim? Or is it enough with a gasket between the rail and housing?
Rubber seal around stat. Without it the stat will not stay in position and there will be no seal between the hose connector and the stat housing proper.
quote:
Originally posted by Rena
quote:
Originally posted by Paul Turner
quote:
Originally posted by Rena
Before putting my engine together again, a short question.
Should I have a rubber-sealing around the thermostat rim? Or is it enough with a gasket between the rail and housing?
Rubber seal around stat. Without it the stat will not stay in position and there will be no seal between the hose connector and the stat housing proper.
Thanks - i didnīt have a rubber-seal last season, maybe thatīs why I got problems with my water rail....It could be one reason.
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
quote:
Originally posted by Rena
quote:
Originally posted by Paul Turner
quote:
Originally posted by Rena
Before putting my engine together again, a short question.
Should I have a rubber-sealing around the thermostat rim? Or is it enough with a gasket between the rail and housing?
Rubber seal around stat. Without it the stat will not stay in position and there will be no seal between the hose connector and the stat housing proper.
Thanks - i didnīt have a rubber-seal last season, maybe thatīs why I got problems with my water rail....It could be one reason.
ISTR The Raceline hotter rail was intended for standard tradditional Biritish/US pattern thermostats (as per MGB, Mini, Spitfire, Viva and Xflo) that don't use a rubber seal, the rubber seal is only used on engines with a much smaller dameter thermostat eg Pinto & Rover K.
[Edited on 7/3/16 by britishtrident]
I am extremely puzzled as to why you should think that would have any positive effect? The problem with the Raceline part is the therrmosat and
temperature sensor(s) are located where there is non continuous water circulation, this is what plumbers and heating engineers call a "dead
leg".
Water is not a good conductor of heat, because it has a high specific heat capcity it is very good transfering heat but to do that it needs to flow
from the hot region to the cooler area. The design flaw in the Raceline water it is as supplied there is no coolant flowing over the thermostat when
the thermostat is closed, by drilling the thermostat it is possible to get enough flow over the thermostat bulb to get it to work after a fashion but
the water temperature will fluctuate especially in the bottom half of the engine.
It is thermodynnamics but it isn't rocket science, think of your household hot water system, the tank can be near boiling but the hot water tap
in the kitchen is cold unless the tap is running.
[Edited on 7/3/16 by britishtrident]
[Edited on 7/3/16 by britishtrident]
quote:
Originally posted by Rena
Thanks - i didnīt have a rubber-seal last season, maybe thatīs why I got problems with my water rail....It could be one reason.