-> just judging on the amount of parts of I6 vs V6
The Vanos system will give it low down torque, but is complex.
just you wait until you get a custom (locost) exhaust on that I6, it will sound awesome
I am rapidly approaching the point of no return regarding my engine choice, and I have just enough time for one last crisis of faith!
So far for my Haynes build I have planned to use the M52b28 engine currently occupying space on my garage floor. This produces under 200bhp as
standard, and weighs in at about 180kg with the transmission. Tuning wise I am looking at 250bhp maximum, with tuning parts that are hard to get hold
of.
The alternative option is to abandon the M52 and go for the Jaguar AJ-30 engine, which produces 240bhp from the box (ostensibly). Not sure about
weight but the gear ratios appear to be very similar to those of the M52 gearbox. Tuning wise apparently 300bhp is relatively doable, and about as far
as I want to go at this point.
From my point of view a big advantage of the AJ-30 is that it sounds nice, whereas I've yet to find a good sounding M52.
So what do you guys think? Stick with what I've got or change direction?
I would go for the straight6, for packaging and I would think that it would be lighter.
-> just judging on the amount of parts of I6 vs V6
The Vanos system will give it low down torque, but is complex.
just you wait until you get a custom (locost) exhaust on that I6, it will sound awesome
I don't think power is an issue at all. The M52B28 is only sub 200bhp as it's restricted from the factory. The M50 manifold, ECU remap and
decent exhaust should see an easy 230bhp. Either way it'll be more than enough in a Haynes, especially on the road!! 
The next level of tuning
may become more difficult / expensive, but will you need it? If required I'm thinking forged rods, gas flowed head and M3 or similar cams. But
tbh it'll probably be easier / cheaper to go to a full M3 lump at that point.
As above, I reckon the M52 will sound awesome into a single can 
I can't see weights been much different but the V6 should be shorter which may help.
[Edited on 4/9/14 by Nickp]
I would be going v6.
quote:
Originally posted by big_wasa
I would be going v6.
M52 does indeed sound great through a decat exhaust, and it is plenty of power to start with. Plus easy upgrade path to M3 (320 bhp) then turbo'd
M3 (4-500 bhp if you are mental) in the future. It's tall and long so tricky to fit though. Lightweight gearbox, diff is heavy but you don't
have to use the BMW diff I guess.
Remember that a v6 will carry a weight (and cost) penalty in terms of needing two exhausts.
Bit of inspiration ?
http://www.reallyquick.co.uk/spec.htm
Jag V6 has variable valve timing so unless you are going to use the stock ECU then you will either need a top end ECU that can to PWM control, the
trigger wheels VCT box (not sure they have a map for this engine though) or go for the off/on/off method which works well with the ST170 and 1.7 Puma.
There is also some good info on this engine in the link below - in a Lotus Esprit - using a mondeo inlet manifold to keep the engine hieight down.
http://www.thelotusforums.com/forums/topic/8126-30-v6-conversion/
Running a V8 I can certainly inform you that there is a cost penalty when having two exhausts. 
I would go for the Beemer, not the most powerful engine out the box but very strong and simple.
The M50 manifold mod does help, but not much, the biggest step forward is bin the factory ECU and fit MS.
Next biggest step is a decent exhaust manifold, the factory one is rubbish.
We have tuned a couple in the past, will pull from very low rpm, really smooth engines.
Regarding the jag, we have dyno'd afew jags (old ones) and found jaguar lie about power output, the Beemer will produce as stated or slightly
more.
I would go ajv6 bottom end is good . noble only use rods and lower compresion pistons obviously blown but 450 hp
the vvt on the jag can be driven with the outputs on most mid priced ecu's but its not a big job to run standard ecu.
on throttle bodies no engine tune and programmable ecu a g20 is running 275hp 2 years on and it was still racing
and it is a nice small compact unit
no brainer and its a six they all sound good
quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
The M50 manifold mod does help, but not much, the biggest step forward is bin the factory ECU and fit MS.
quote:
Originally posted by Nickp
quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
The M50 manifold mod does help, but not much, the biggest step forward is bin the factory ECU and fit MS.
I'm surprised that you say the M50 manifold doesn't help much. Most reckon you can add 25bhp, possibly more, for very little outlay. I'm sure MS or similar will give good gains but surely only if used in conjunction with the M50 manifold or ITBs?
I'm about to bolt an M50 manifold onto my donor and have a 'remapped' std ECU ready to go on. It's alleged to give 230bhp, but we'll have to see I guess. I got the ECU more for the EWS/ABS delete but a decent power increase would be nice too
quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
quote:
Originally posted by Nickp
quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
The M50 manifold mod does help, but not much, the biggest step forward is bin the factory ECU and fit MS.
I'm surprised that you say the M50 manifold doesn't help much. Most reckon you can add 25bhp, possibly more, for very little outlay. I'm sure MS or similar will give good gains but surely only if used in conjunction with the M50 manifold or ITBs?
I'm about to bolt an M50 manifold onto my donor and have a 'remapped' std ECU ready to go on. It's alleged to give 230bhp, but we'll have to see I guess. I got the ECU more for the EWS/ABS delete but a decent power increase would be nice too
The stock engine is restricted by it both inlet and exhaust manifolds and the air flow meter, you need to address all three problems to get a worth while increase in power.
We have fitted M5 ITBs to a stock engine (with conversion plate), with stock exhaust, and gained 10BHP. We didn't try i but i recon another 5BHP would have been released with a decent exhaust manifold and system.
We have turbocharged these engines too, with disappointing results regarding BHP - the cars do go very well but make the same sort of power as a turbo zetec. The turbo car we did recently was fitted with a Piper 285 - that engine made a load of power and was mental in a drift car!
So, the engine will not breathe even with a turbo unless the cams are changed.
If ITBs don't gain much then the M50 manifold is unlikely to be better.
We have dyno'd two "chipped / re-flashed" BMWs in the past, very poor power curve with the fuelling all over the place - worse than the stock ECU.
Nothing wrong with the sound of a straight six.
My impression is that technically more support is available for the BMW engine than the Jag V6.
Cost wise, a S50/52 M3 engine would be cheaper than tuning the AJ v6 to 300hp.
Daft question but why not just go straight for the 3.0 or 3.2 m3 motor, amazing engine and plenty around and plenty of parts to maintain or upgrade.
I know the manifold swap is meant to add a lot but by the time you tune up a 2.8 to go further you could have bought the S50/52 engine!
quote:
Originally posted by DanP
Daft question but why not just go straight for the 3.0 or 3.2 m3 motor, amazing engine and plenty around and plenty of parts to maintain or upgrade.
I know the manifold swap is meant to add a lot but by the time you tune up a 2.8 to go further you could have bought the S50/52 engine!
Thanks for all the replies guys, there's a fair bit of interesting information especially regarding tuning the M52.
I wasn't really looking at the S50 engine as I thought they'd be a fair bit heavier - about 30kg over the M52 it turns out. They are,
however, very expensive from a quick ebay search. I'd imaging the AJ-30 would give much better bang for the buck than an M3 engine.
I guess I'm not overly worried about the total power, it's more being able to research and upgrade the engine as a project (if that makes
any sense!). So I'd be quite happy starting off with a 50hp engine if I could do some upgrades and get 200hp (exaggerated example obviously!).
I'm just weird like that
Also the sound, and as I said I'm not convinced on the M52 engine noise. Superficial I know, but I don't want to make a choice now
I'll regret when I'm going through tunnels later 
I'm not sure about AJ30 being a better bang for the buck than a S52.
The S52 comes with throttle bodies for 'free' and to get an AJ to perform like a S52 you probably looking at some headwork, cams, itbs and a
standalone ECU.
Soundwise look for some vids on youtube with M52 with exhaust systems (Supersprint, Eissenmann, Remus) and decide if that could work for you.
Maybe, the v6 gearbox combo from a Nissan 350Z might have dropped enough in price to steal them from evilbay?
However the best sound system for in the tunnel would be an Alfa-Romeo v6 (Busso)
http://youtu.be/2lWvcQrr6sA
It's not that I don't like the sound of a straight 6, it's just that I guess a V6 has a bit more warble to it (not sure if that's
the right word!). Besides, getting an S52 would be difficult, as they're only available in the states I have yet to find an reasonable M3
engine for less than a couple of grand, and that's without ECU. The AJ-30 I can get with the gearbox for a few hundred, then ITB's would be
something I'd probably try to do myself. As I said above, the overall performance is not something I'm too worried about, more the return
for investment! If I want all out power I'd go the forced induction route
Alfa V6 would be an awesome project, but I can't be faffed with adapter plates etc. - otherwise I'd just use the 1UZ-FE V8 I've got
loitering around The VQ35DE is an interesting engine, but again pretty damned expensive at this point with the gearbox.
After all this I am still undecided - I shall ponder the question more as I try to plumb my brakes in!
I meant S50
or S54
Although, Alpina did put in some of their cars (the 3.3 liters) a engine similar to the US S52.
I do see your point a well tuned V6 sounds a little more exotic than a straight six which tends to sound more 'perfect' turbine like.
Investment wise, it is the cheapest to get the engine with the desired power from factory.
Tuning is always (needs to be) done with man's math logic. How it works when you start comparing on engine sounds I do not know. Everything
sounds allright with an open exhaust (or am I too young?)
In the latest PPC there is an article of an 1UZ-Fe being matched to a Getrag 260 gearbox on a shoestring budget, just a thought.
Ultimate straight six sound here:
http://youtu.be/bwyh24AUTds
S50 is the 3.0 e36 m3 engine, single vanos (vvt) 286bhp, very solid engine
S52 is the 3.2 e36 m3 evo engine, dual vanos (inlet and exhaust), 321bhp, vanos unit can get noisy and fail but parts easy to get
S54 is the 3.2 e46 m3 engine, dual vanos, 343bhp, solid engine.
Stay away from the US e36 m3 engines, they were quite different and much lower power.
I totally agree with the want of a lovely sound of a Vee engine, but a BMW ///M straight six is a serious engine and sounds amazing.
You can pick up an e36 m3 engine and box for 2000, a lot but you will struggle to get that sort of power for less out of anything else.
You gotta go with your heart at the end of the day though, it's your car!
quote:
Originally posted by DanP
S50 is the 3.0 e36 m3 engine, single vanos (vvt) 286bhp, very solid engine
S52 is the 3.2 e36 m3 evo engine, dual vanos (inlet and exhaust), 321bhp, vanos unit can get noisy and fail but parts easy to get
S54 is the 3.2 e46 m3 engine, dual vanos, 343bhp, solid engine.
I think the price varies depending on the weather - wet weather = lots of m3's being broken!
My brother broke his 3.2 and got 1600, but I though 2k was more normal, I guess not.
Whiteblock Volvo 3 litre straight six , 204hp. They do come with manual boxes but you have to look.
they don't lean over as much as bmw either
Well the die is cast!
Jaaaaaaaag
quote:
Originally posted by Badger_McLetcher
Well the die is cast!
Jaaaaaaaag
Ah, the start of a project
Keep us informed about the updates
I always wondered why the S-type hasn't picked up yet as a donor car for a nice 2 seat roadster (ala x180/F-type)