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Aramid/carbon fibre sump?
FuryRebuild - 3/6/13 at 08:36 AM

I have an interesting challenge question that's kicking around in my head ... Is there a reason why one wouldn't make a aramid (kevlar) sump, and I'm thinking for a duratec?

I am operating on the following assumptions:
1) aramid outer layers for impact resistance
2) CF / honeycomb inner layer for rigidity
3) choice of epoxy made specifically to not be damaged by exposure to oil
4) this is not for a bike engine, which tend to rely more on conduction cooling

I appreciate that there won't be any thing like as much conduction cooling through the sump, but most people tend to augment the cooling through an oil-cooler which is active and more efficient.

I struggle to see an issue with this - any thoughts? It could turn out to be way lighter than my current gated sump

Thanks
Mark

nick205 - 3/6/13 at 09:02 AM

My first thoughts are would it offer enough weight saving over the normal pressed steel or cast alloy item in relation to cost? The money would be better employed reducing weight higher up the car's CoG IMHO.

I'd imagine you'd need to think about metal inserts to provide a reliable drain plug thread. Possibly for the bolt holes as well to allow sufficient tightening force without damaging the material.

Pressed steel and cast alloy are pretty easy to modify to suit different installations like a 7 type.

I'm guessing if the OEMs could make them from plastic materials like inlet manifolds they would to save cost (maybe they already do, but I've not seen one).

omega0684 - 3/6/13 at 09:10 AM

quote:
Originally posted by nick205
My first thoughts are would it offer enough weight saving over the normal pressed steel or cast alloy item in relation to cost?


my thoughts exactly, for a Pinto application the sumps are pretty light, and when you start chopping them up they become even lighter

Carbonman - 3/6/13 at 09:18 AM

With the use of some core materials/Resin Infusion and post cured at a temperature above its normal operating temperature it is certainly possible. Done right you could see a decent weight saving but it won't be cheap Sounds like an interesting project. One of those " I said I could do it " ones. Don't know what experience you have with composites but if I can advise/help at all just let me know.

Regards Warren

[Edited on 3/6/13 by Carbonman]

loggyboy - 3/6/13 at 09:26 AM

In addtion to the above weight arguments, even if reinforced, If you clouted a composite sump its going to split... end of, at least with steel one (even alum to a certain extent) its likely to bend first.

FuryRebuild - 3/6/13 at 09:35 AM

Hi Warren

Thanks for the offer. I am about to rebuild my new duratec and have tig welded a gated sump for it (based on the revered flak-monkey design). Whilst it's certainly up for the job, it's not the lightest. I appreciate that the original duratec sump is light but once you go transverse, you're either paying £350 for an ally one, or less for a custom steel one with more weight.

My background in composites isn't much that's practical, but I have read a few good books and feel the urge to jump in. My initial start is to replace the ally riveted on panels on my chassis with CF honeycomb panels, fully bonded in with the appropriate loctite to CF adhesive. This will give me lots of additional strength for no weight gain.

I got to thinking from there, and about the hassle in making the sump and I thought "it's actually quite a simple shape to mold", and I've got quite a bit of 3d cad experience so getting a mold cut, or making one from the sump I have may take a bit of time, but won't be that hard a job.

I'd definitely go for resin infusion (have asked SWMBO for a vacuum pump for fathers day) and a cheap oven to bake a sump isn't difficult to get.

I can easily see 2-3 kg being saved here, and I'd either buy or have ally hard-points machined for the mating surface.

Thanks for the encouragement. I've also found someone selling a CF rocker cover, but that is way more effort and cost for something that is already very light.

FuryRebuild - 3/6/13 at 09:36 AM

quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
In addtion to the above weight arguments, even if reinforced, If you clouted a composite sump its going to split... end of, at least with steel one (even alum to a certain extent) its likely to bend first.


Hi Loggy - would it though? Aramid is way stronger than steel (as in kevlar bullet proof vests).

Cheers
M

Carbonman - 3/6/13 at 09:46 AM

quote:
Originally posted by FuryRebuild
Hi Warren

Thanks for the offer. I am about to rebuild my new duratec and have tig welded a gated sump for it (based on the revered flak-monkey design). Whilst it's certainly up for the job, it's not the lightest. I appreciate that the original duratec sump is light but once you go transverse, you're either paying £350 for an ally one, or less for a custom steel one with more weight.

My background in composites isn't much that's practical, but I have read a few good books and feel the urge to jump in. My initial start is to replace the ally riveted on panels on my chassis with CF honeycomb panels, fully bonded in with the appropriate loctite to CF adhesive. This will give me lots of additional strength for no weight gain.

I got to thinking from there, and about the hassle in making the sump and I thought "it's actually quite a simple shape to mold", and I've got quite a bit of 3d cad experience so getting a mold cut, or making one from the sump I have may take a bit of time, but won't be that hard a job.

I'd definitely go for resin infusion (have asked SWMBO for a vacuum pump for fathers day) and a cheap oven to bake a sump isn't difficult to get.

I can easily see 2-3 kg being saved here, and I'd either buy or have ally hard-points machined for the mating surface.

Thanks for the encouragement. I've also found someone selling a CF rocker cover, but that is way more effort and cost for something that is already very light.


If you have the vacuum pump already then I would say go for it The biggest expense would be labour plug/mould making etc, your time would be free. As you say with the correct choice of materials it would out perform steel or ally. Push the boundaries, you never know you may be onto something

FuryRebuild - 3/6/13 at 10:03 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Carbonman
quote:
Originally posted by FuryRebuild
Hi Warren

Thanks for the offer. I am about to rebuild my new duratec and have tig welded a gated sump for it (based on the revered flak-monkey design). Whilst it's certainly up for the job, it's not the lightest. I appreciate that the original duratec sump is light but once you go transverse, you're either paying £350 for an ally one, or less for a custom steel one with more weight.

My background in composites isn't much that's practical, but I have read a few good books and feel the urge to jump in. My initial start is to replace the ally riveted on panels on my chassis with CF honeycomb panels, fully bonded in with the appropriate loctite to CF adhesive. This will give me lots of additional strength for no weight gain.

I got to thinking from there, and about the hassle in making the sump and I thought "it's actually quite a simple shape to mold", and I've got quite a bit of 3d cad experience so getting a mold cut, or making one from the sump I have may take a bit of time, but won't be that hard a job.

I'd definitely go for resin infusion (have asked SWMBO for a vacuum pump for fathers day) and a cheap oven to bake a sump isn't difficult to get.

I can easily see 2-3 kg being saved here, and I'd either buy or have ally hard-points machined for the mating surface.

Thanks for the encouragement. I've also found someone selling a CF rocker cover, but that is way more effort and cost for something that is already very light.


If you have the vacuum pump already then I would say go for it The biggest expense would be labour plug/mould making etc, your time would be free. As you say with the correct choice of materials it would out perform steel or ally. Push the boundaries, you never know you may be onto something


I already have a londitudinal sump that I could take a buck from although it would need some tidying up to get the nice shiny results, and I've made two of these now (including a 10 degree offset sump as a special for someone) so I'm familiar with what the end result needs to achieve. I think some aspects of manufacture would actually be easier - assembling the gates and cross-slats is a royal pain in the chuff, and unless the whole thing is back-gassed (not practical) the weld finish isn't necessarily beautiful when welding from the inside to the outside.

Now, the cross-slats can just be bonded into place.

FuryRebuild - 3/6/13 at 10:07 AM

As a follow-up, the raceline ally sump to do this job is £423. It's a sophisticated piece of kit, with removable parts.

I think "watch this space" is in order ...

Carbonman - 3/6/13 at 10:11 AM



You could compromise and just do the internals in composites. Epoxy Resin bonds really well to ally. May have to look at any potential issues with differing rates of expansion though?

[Edited on 3/6/13 by Carbonman]

FuryRebuild - 3/6/13 at 10:15 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Carbonman


So, I'm thinking aramid layers on the outside, honeycomb, CF on the inside. Overall thickness no more than 2mm. Then machined hard points (I already have the sump mating face in CAD for the steel ones) to attach to the sump, and for the dipstick.

The gates would be bonded in, and the windage tray could be removable. To achieve this, I would probably fix ally cylinders, tapped for a screw, bond them into the slats and then bolt through - the bolts would be locktited in for security.

Thoughts?

Carbonman - 3/6/13 at 10:22 AM

There is a product called Soric which is great core material. Once infused it has great compression strength, but very light (little resin uptake)

FuryRebuild - 3/6/13 at 10:24 AM

Doesn't that stuff also act as a channel for the resin to run through?

M

britishtrident - 3/6/13 at 10:33 AM

The sump also serves as the only oil cooler, which is the main reason some manufacturers fit alloy sumps on performance models even though they are heavier than the paper thin steel sumps fitted to most modern cars.

blakep82 - 3/6/13 at 10:43 AM

I've got an axle for a 1986 ford aerostar van in the garage, and the diff cover is made from some sort of fibre composite. Not sure what exactly, but it can be done.
The prop shaft also isnt metal, but some sort of plastic and very light. Must be ahead of its time

FuryRebuild - 3/6/13 at 11:01 AM

quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
The sump also serves as the only oil cooler, which is the main reason some manufacturers fit alloy sumps on performance models even though they are heavier than the paper thin steel sumps fitted to most modern cars.


I think I'd need to experiment on my engine to see if the composite sump with the oil-cooler would be sufficient. Bearing in mind most performance engines come with an oil-cooler I don't think I'd be adding more weight.

What would be easily possible would be to fit an internal thin aluminum plate on both sides (not the bottom), with a matching vaned plate on the outside. The two could be connected by a couple of pieces of aluminum dowell which is bonded in place, and the plates thermally coupled to the dowell using the same thermal seal stuff from CPU coolers.

It may be way easier to go for a slightly larger oil-cooler though.

I think experimentation is the way ahead. Oil temp curves captured with engines under load. Steel sump and composite sump with oil-cooler.

loggyboy - 3/6/13 at 11:03 AM

quote:
Originally posted by FuryRebuild
quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
In addtion to the above weight arguments, even if reinforced, If you clouted a composite sump its going to split... end of, at least with steel one (even alum to a certain extent) its likely to bend first.


Hi Loggy - would it though? Aramid is way stronger than steel (as in kevlar bullet proof vests).

Cheers
M


Bullets dont have half a tonne of car propelling them in to the kevlar though, Just a lot of momentum and a few grams of bullet.
Also a kevlar vest isnt isnt designed to retain fluid, its designed to stop the bullet penetrating the body behind the vest, if the vest splits or cracks it will have still stopped the bullet. Those vest also weigh a lot beacuse of the number of layers of kevlar.

To be fair, its quite unlikely you would strike the sump, and then unlikely that you would strike with another force to puncture it. Just one of those 'what if' situations.

FuryRebuild - 3/6/13 at 11:07 AM

quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
quote:
Originally posted by FuryRebuild
quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
In addtion to the above weight arguments, even if reinforced, If you clouted a composite sump its going to split... end of, at least with steel one (even alum to a certain extent) its likely to bend first.


Hi Loggy - would it though? Aramid is way stronger than steel (as in kevlar bullet proof vests).

Cheers
M


Bullets dont have half a tonne of car propelling them in to the kevlar though, Just a lot of momentum and a few grams of bullet.
Also a kevlar vest isnt isnt designed to retain fluid, its designed to stop the bullet penetrating the body behind the vest, if the vest splits or cracks it will have still stopped the bullet. Those vest also weigh a lot beacuse of the number of layers of kevlar.

To be fair, its quite unlikely you would strike the sump, and then unlikely that you would strike with another force to puncture it. Just one of those 'what if' situations.


True enough, and let's face it, if your sump is hanging so low a brick can it it, you're already courting trouble. Similarly if you're rallying, you will have a disposable sump guard as well.

I would expect a well made composite component to out-perform an ally one, especially if there's kevlar in the mix to provide some impact resistance and flexibility. Carbon will shatter when pushed beyond it's limits which is why I proposed going kevlar/carbon

It's all good stuff though to help me refine my thoughts ...

Carbonman - 3/6/13 at 11:14 AM

quote:
Originally posted by FuryRebuild
Doesn't that stuff also act as a channel for the resin to run through?

M


Yep, so you don't need the flow mesh required for normal infusion on areas where the Soric is used. Once cured you are left with little resin honeycombs

[Edited on 3/6/13 by Carbonman]

britishtrident - 3/6/13 at 11:15 AM

quote:
Originally posted by blakep82
I've got an axle for a 1986 ford aerostar van in the garage, and the diff cover is made from some sort of fibre composite. Not sure what exactly, but it can be done.
The prop shaft also isnt metal, but some sort of plastic and very light. Must be ahead of its time



Wound glass-kevlar composite propshafts were gaining favour in the 1980s, Matra used one on the very rare 4x4 version of the Renault Espace.

Around the late 1980s a lot of work was also done on composite springs, the sulcated spring was developed as replacement for steel coil springs by Jim Thompson at Paisley Uni.

[Edited on 3/6/13 by britishtrident]

mcerd1 - 3/6/13 at 11:28 AM

quote:
Originally posted by blakep82
The prop shaft also isnt metal, but some sort of plastic and very light. Must be ahead of its time


carbon prop's have been around for a while - but they arn't cheap
http://www.sevenspeed.co.uk/collections/carbon-fibre/products/caterham-7-composite-propshaft

blakep82 - 3/6/13 at 11:44 AM

Its not carbon, but it has aluminium ends, green and red spiralled banding, and a clear plastic laquer.
I'll get a photo late. Always wondered what it was

Bluemoon - 3/6/13 at 11:51 AM

The sump may also help strengthen the bottom end, i.e. stopping twisting of the block. No idea if this is relevant to your engine or not but some bullet sumps are used in this way.. Designing a composite one to do the same would be more difficult.

IMHO you are better off looking at other areas for weight saving; not to say you can't do it but not sure it's worth the hassle..

Dan

mcerd1 - 3/6/13 at 11:56 AM

quote:
Originally posted by blakep82
Its not carbon, but it has aluminium ends, green and red spiralled banding, and a clear plastic laquer.
I'll get a photo late. Always wondered what it was


It'll be made the same way as the carbon ones, but with different fibers (probably glass & kevlar like BT says)

filament wound tube linky

[Edited on 3/6/2013 by mcerd1]

omega0684 - 3/6/13 at 12:48 PM

quote:
Originally posted by mcerd1
quote:
Originally posted by blakep82
The prop shaft also isnt metal, but some sort of plastic and very light. Must be ahead of its time


carbon prop's have been around for a while - but they arn't cheap
http://www.sevenspeed.co.uk/collections/carbon-fibre/products/caterham-7-composite-propshaft


A mere drop in the ocean! dig deep!

twybrow - 3/6/13 at 02:09 PM

quote:
Originally posted by omega0684
quote:
Originally posted by mcerd1
quote:
Originally posted by blakep82
The prop shaft also isnt metal, but some sort of plastic and very light. Must be ahead of its time


carbon prop's have been around for a while - but they arn't cheap
http://www.sevenspeed.co.uk/collections/carbon-fibre/products/caterham-7-composite-propshaft


A mere drop in the ocean! dig deep!


I have masses of that sort of size carbon filament wound tube kicking about in our factory here in China - I might have to get some of the techs to turn up some end attachments and bond them on! The only problem is, do I trust it...?!

As for the kevlar/carbon sump - I think this has mileage, but don't expect much of a weight saving. Soric is good, but IMHO, not as good for this application as something like this - but of course, it costs more!

Don't underestimate the time and materials to build a mould - if it is a labour of love, then go for it, but there are certainly easier ways to save a modest amount of weight!

If I can be of any assistance, I am happy to do so.

mcerd1 - 3/6/13 at 02:16 PM

quote:
Originally posted by omega0684
A mere drop in the ocean! dig deep!

well one for mine or yours should be about half that 'cause they are half that lenght.....

got to offset the weight of the pinto somehow lol

blakep82 - 3/6/13 at 02:31 PM

Description
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This what it looks like

Carbonman - 3/6/13 at 05:17 PM

quote:
Originally posted by twybrow
quote:
Originally posted by omega0684
quote:
Originally posted by mcerd1
quote:
Originally posted by blakep82
The prop shaft also isnt metal, but some sort of plastic and very light. Must be ahead of its time


carbon prop's have been around for a while - but they arn't cheap
http://www.sevenspeed.co.uk/collections/carbon-fibre/products/caterham-7-composite-propshaft


A mere drop in the ocean! dig deep!


I have masses of that sort of size carbon filament wound tube kicking about in our factory here in China - I might have to get some of the techs to turn up some end attachments and bond them on! The only problem is, do I trust it...?!

As for the kevlar/carbon sump - I think this has mileage, but don't expect much of a weight saving. Soric is good, but IMHO, not as good for this application as something like this - but of course, it costs more!

Don't underestimate the time and materials to build a mould - if it is a labour of love, then go for it, but there are certainly easier ways to save a modest amount of weight!

If I can be of any assistance, I am happy to do so.


I suggested Soric because this sounds like his first go at Infusion. Soric acts as a flow medium making the layup much easier and it also conforms well to compound curves.

twybrow - 3/6/13 at 11:13 PM

Carbonman - does a sump have any compound curves?! But agreed, it does allow one less consumable to be used, therefore making it easier.

FuryRebuild - 3/6/13 at 11:15 PM

quote:
Originally posted by twybrow
Carbonman - does a sump have any compound curves?! But agreed, it does allow one less consumable to be used, therefore making it easier.


I'd want to use some kind of honeycomb sandwich to add lots of strength for very little added weight.