i can get the engine out of a rover vitesse sport. it is a 2ltr turbo nd can it be converted so it can be used? if so does any one no were to get the bell housing~?

personally....i think you're missing the point

really missing the point

Mark

quote:

---

Originally posted by paul_mcq
i can get the engine out of a rover vitesse sport. it is a 2ltr turbo nd can it be converted so it can be used? if so does any one no were to get the bell housing~?

---

typical, i spent months finding out about sherpa boxes, paul finds answers within hours!

i sacked the rover idea off due to weight, and the fact i couldnt be arsed finding a gearbox for it. still sat in some field now i guess!

Imagine a K-series, but a bit bigger, and made of steel. A bit lardy but a very nice engine indeed. I had a 180,000 mile Rover 820 and the engine was still beautifully sweet all the way up to its 6500 red line. Ought to make a Locost shift some, specially with a turbo.

Liam

quote:

---

Originally posted by Liam
Imagine a K-series, but a bit bigger, and made of steel. A bit lardy but a very nice engine indeed. I had a 180,000 mile Rover 820 and the engine was still beautifully sweet all the way up to its 6500 red line. Ought to make a Locost shift some, specially with a turbo.

Liam

---

If you have tried carrying a M or T series you would not bother......
Lovelly engine but bloody heavy!
K series are fine up to 60000 miles after that it's a matter of when,not if the head gasket blows.And they are not easy to cure......
I'd go Zetec or Toyota 4ge or the super Vauxhall single or twin cam engines.
DEAN.......

Never had head gasket problems on any of my K series --- there isn't a head gasket problem unless you boil one or don't change the coolant, 99% of any head gasket problems on the 1.4 and 1.6 are caused by minor external water leaks usually from the inlet manifold gasket or outer corner of the head gasket being ignored -- once you boil a K series iits history.

My main problem with the K series some of the shortcuts taken by Rover at the design stage I have seen two with the bottom sprocket and pulley floating about on end of the crank --there is no keyway only a "D" flat mached on the crank -- as can be imagined this does wonders for the valve timing.

[Edited on 31/3/04 by britishtrident]

You're right about K series engines being history once boiled,but I don't have one good thing to say about Rover K series lumps!
Over a two year period I bought almost four hundred different straight or damaged Rovers,in the end I stopped buying anything with a K series in unless it was virtually free!
But I could sell every good engine or head I could get my hands on.
In the end I just unbolted the heads and sold them on their own after pressure testing and skimming as the comebacks were less frequant.
Having said that I love M and T series engines but they are far to heavy in my opinion for this type of car!
If you can work out how to run a Honda/Rover 1600cc engine(I know it has been done) then this would make a perfect engine,light ,fast revs well and very reliable!!!It's just getting round the anti clockwise crank rotation that is the problem.

The Honda 4 cylinder units are super reliable (can't say the same about the v6 2.5 and to a lesser extent the 2.7) -- with the 4 cylinder the only fault is the distributer ( I keep meaning to buy a spare off ebay). Not crazy about the DOHC 2.3 in my 600 though it lacks sparkle .
For a kit car the anticlockwise rotation is a killer just flipping the diff over isn't really on I wonder if some 4x4 front diff would give the correct roation, also I have a feeling a 2nd hand gearbox won't take kindly to suddenly having to work counter clockwise

[Edited on 1/4/04 by britishtrident]

FWIW, theres an S2000 engine on ebay at the minute. should be a good start.

the K series are FAMED for self destructing

it was even on BBC tv.

I spoke to the AA guy that fixed my beemer and he confirmed it.


Someone I work with also had his gasket blow at 70k.

TOL had a post by a guy that runs a scrappy that verified lots of people want the heads cos they all blow.

In 4 years on groups like this I stil have NEVER EVER found a locoster using that engine..

someone step forward and prove me wrong.........


atb

steve

As an owner of a Rover 800 Vitesse Turbo I can vouch for the engine as a very nice powerplant with bags of torque and a free revving nature. However, I dismissed this as a potential donor engine due to the sheer weight of it. Anything which is heavier than the already lardy Pinto is just not on in a lightweight car in my opinion. I ended up going for a Rover V8 3.5 litre engine as it is lighter than both the Pinto and the T-series but even it is about as heavy as I would recommend for a Locost.

The other thing which drives most people mad about the T-series is the notorious head gasket oil leak (passenger's side front corner of engine/head interface)
I repaired mine myself using the Klinger gasket recommended and had the head skimmed professionally, and cleaned and keyed the block as recommended, and used new head bolts as recommended, and torqued them down as recommended etc etc.
However, less than 12 months on the head gasket started to leak again which really pisses me off as it cost me about £250 and 3 days to fix it in the first place.

I use Mobil 1 0w/40 oil and change it every 6k miles along with a brand new unipart filter so the engine is in good nick despite its 130k+ miles. I've had it since 77k miles and the engine has proved strong except for the oil leak. I had to change the clutch as well but that's not bad for a 130k mile engine.

Anyway, as I said, this is a very good engine for a heavier car but not for a Locost. It would be fast but would handle like a dog due to being too nose heavy. Either go for the all-alloy Rover V8 or a smaller (1.6 or 1.8 litre) light alloy multivalve engine like the K-series. I've heard all the scare stories about the k-series too but just think how many of them are out there and are running just fine. Bad news always travels farther and faster than good news after all...
If I hadn't gone for the Rover V8 it would have been a non-VVC 1.8 litre K-Series lump. The non-VVC has more ultimate tuning potential and is much less expensive and much less complex than the VVC. Don't be put off by scare stories as the K-Series is very common in many of the Locost/Westfield/Caterham cars and is also used in the Lotus Elise.

Hope this helps,
Craig.

but lotus westfield etc use new engines.....


the gasget probs at 60k plus is a REAL problem KNOWN in the industry.

The 1.8 used by land rover had the gasket redesigned to reduce failures

Just ask any parked up AA or RAC man what he thinks about K series engines........


http://forum.parkers.co.uk/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9569

http://www.mgfcar.de/hgf/

http://www.myfreelander.com/kengineprobs4.htm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/watchdog/reports/transport7.shtml


http://www.carmechanicsmag.co.uk/cgi-bin/help.cgi?i=0308&m=Rover&q=04

http://www.pressuregroups.net/uk/viewtopic.php?t=59

http://www.shame.4mg.com/


proved my point?

atb

steve

quote:

---

Originally posted by craig1410

Anyway, as I said, this is a very good engine for a heavier car but not for a Locost. It would be fast but would handle like a dog due to being too nose heavy.

---

Steve,
I'm not disputing that they do have a problem with head gaskets on the K-series but I believe that the problem has been blown out of all proportion by the poor handling of the issue by Rover and the publicity given to it by Watchdog. Also, Landrover have a fix which can be retrofitted to any K-series engine just to be safe. I also understand that this problem only really affects the 1.8 litre engine and that the 1.6 and the excellent 1.4 litre (103 BHP) engines don't suffer or at least not nearly so badly.

I just took a look at the Warranty Direct website which gathers information on warranty claims for most of the car makers and they list the following reliability stats for the Rover 400 (from 1992 onwards)

Reliability Index 64 (Average is 112 and low is better)
Average Age 6.43 years
Average Mileage 50557 miles
Time off the Road 2.15 hours
Average Repair Cost £198.49
Air Conditioning - 0%
Axle & Suspension 13.33%
Braking System 13.33%
Cooling and Heating System 6.67%
Electrical 33.33%
Engine 13.33%
Fuel System - 0%
Transmission 20.00%

You can check this for yourself here

Note that engine failures are less of a problem than either electrical or transmission problems and also note that average repair cost is low which would not be the case if everyone had to get a new engine every 60k miles. Yes I know the average mileage is only 50557 here but there will be roughly as many above this average as below so the "typical" 60k failure should be adequately covered.

If you do a search on Google for "k series" engine reliability you will find more good than bad articles and one I found which is a good introduction to tuning the k-series is here

Nope, sorry Steve we'll have to agree to differ on this one because in my opinion the 1.6 or 1.8 litre k-series is a good engine choice for a "seven" despite the scare-mongering which has gone on in recent years.

Cheers,
Craig.

Liam,
No, you have a valid point and no offence is taken. As I said I am fitting a Rover V8 which isn't exactly light either!

However, the T-series has a range of issues which make it less than ideal IMHO such as the weight, height, complexity of electronics, cooling requirements, oil leak, RWD transmission availability, turbo needs replaced every 70k-100k. And this is coming from a guy who drives one every day and loves it!! Great in a motorway cruiser but not so great in a cramped engine bay of a lightweight rollerskate.

Cheers,
Craig.

quote:

---

Originally posted by craig1410
As I said I am fitting a Rover V8 which isn't exactly light either!

---

I just sold my 1.4 K series Rover 400 at 60k, never had any major engine probs in the 40,000 miles i had it for. It had it's inlet manifold gasket and waterpump replaced (important as discussed earlier!) and was generally fine, although I have to say it was a bit noisy.
I now have a Puma with the 1.7 Zetec-SE in it and that's a bloody fantastic engine.
It would be great in a locost but I'd imagine that a std 1.8 Zetec would be almost as good and cheaper, you just don't get the VCT super-flat torque curve.

I drove a 214 once for a week and I loved the engine.

however there is a lot of info about dodgy gaskets, much of which well pre dates watchdog.

I found the post by a scrappy whos business was to sell on engines (in the TOL group) that they were almost impossible to find in good condition very telling.

still waiting for soemone to tell me they have used a K in a locost.

My workmates failed car was a 1.4......


atb

steve

Forgot to mention...

Last summer I had the fun 'mission' of taking a 1.4 K-series (got one with 5000 miles from a 25 for £550) to Germany with a bunch of tools and rescuing a stranded 214 that a friend-of-a-friend had destroyed out there (and been quoted billions by a german rover dealer to replace the engine).

Turns out the radiator had gotten so corroded that we could scrape out half the fins with our fingers. Was running a bit hot, did the head gasket and cracked the head. Supports the claims that they are rather sensitive to temperature, even a 1.4.

Still after we replaced the engine it was a pleasure to experience, and of course like any true professionals we tested our work on the Nurburgring. Was much nicer than the 1.4 golf we drove out in (although the build quality of the rest of the car definately wasn't).

I imagine in well looked after enthusiasts car (elise, locost, etc) a K would be a fine bet. But why are no Locosters actually using them then?

Liam

I think I've probably said this before, but my friend was using a 1.4K in his sprint car. He turbocharged it, used Luminition management and on a standard head gasket ran 340bhp. That lasted a whole season before he sold up.

He was tasked at Rover with sorting out the problems. He reckoned drill 3 x 5mm holes in the theromostat and it just doesn't happen.

He blamed almost all problems on Rover dealers and their servicing who are (generally speaking) muppets (in the pejorative rather than cute sense)

He's left Rover now after 18 years and makes starter motors for Indy cars and anything else specialist www.ArkRacing.co.uk

Their website will be updated just as soon as I get round to writing it. (Easter hols here I come!)

Cheers,

Neil.

quote:

---

Originally posted by stephen_gusterson

the gasget probs at 60k plus is a REAL


steve

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Noodle

snip
He was tasked at Rover with sorting out the problems. He reckoned drill 3 x 5mm holes in the theromostat and it just doesn't happen.


He blamed almost all problems on Rover dealers and their servicing who are (generally speaking) muppets (in the pejorative rather than cute sense)
snip

Cheers,

Neil.

---

and I have never had a spell checker


prob is that most cars over 6 or so years old dont get regular servicing. So by the time you get a 70k 10 year old one, its not had any consistent servicing regime, and the damage is done.

the guy at work's car started using about a pint of water a week. told him it was the gasket. 2 months later he took it to garage, and it was confirmed.

car has now done 105k - same engine.

atb

steve

[Edited on 2/4/04 by stephen_gusterson]

My garage fixes over a hundred K Series head gaskets per year. We have less than one subsequent failure per year, so are doing something right.

Failures will occur from as low as 18000 miles. Others do more than 120,000 miles.

The 1100, 1400, 1600 and 1800 all use the same gasket. The 2.5 now uses a mls gasket. They are all IMO excellent engines if maintained OK (leaks, water pumps etc dealt with as discussed).

The worst for failure is the 1600, the best the 1100. The 1600 has an additional problem of porous liners. Probably one in 6 that have the "head gasket" problem have actually got porous liners. The 1400 has this problem to a much lesser degree, the others hardly at all.

There is no reason why a previously overheated K series engine cannot be repaired properly.

Thermostats now have a jiggle pin fitted to facilitate bleeding. Before they did we always drilled a single 1/8" hole. Drill 3 off, 5mm holes and you may as well throw away the thermostat!

The only engine to suffer more head gasket failures (on a pro-rata basis) is the 1200 Fiat (as per Punto).

I think the T series (16v Sherpa) is crap but that's just an opinion. I could also write a book about mis-diagnosis of faults by AA men, but that's another story.

Just in case anyone didn't realise(stephen!)I am also the afforementioned scrappy dealer that specialised in Rovers on TOL.
Before anyone starts mentioning my credentials I am also a qualified engineer.
I currently run a large workshop maintaining a 75 vehicle municipal fleet for a major vehicle manufacturer,as well as repairs for most of the councils in the country from Derby up to the north of scotland.
What I am trying to say is,I do have a good background knowledge of all types of engines and workshop repairs.
Most mechanics that I know or speak to just cringe when anyone mentions K series engines.I cant think of any mechanics that I know that would entertain owning a K series car!
I have myself run Rover 216 (honda) cars
and 220 gti's ,both great cars.
I have also run an early 214 bought as write off,I sold the engine within a few weeks as it was worth as much as the car!(this was when I had the parts business).I'm sorry to anyone that likes the Kseries but basically there is not enough metal in the engine to absorb heat,any slightly high temps seem to cook the engine very quickly.They are so light because when you strip them down the block is virtually hollow,superb for weight but not very good for heat dissipation.
As someone else mentioned though Rover rads are usually falling apart at a few year old as they are built a little bit on the fragile side,this doesn't help the reliability factor either.
I would say though if anyone comes across a virtually new engine then I could see it making a decent conversion,how many locosts will do 60,000 miles?

Nope! I didnt Dean!

Even tried to find your original response on here when it was discussed before but bummed out.

atb

steve

Concur with the Fiat Punto head problem, just done a gasket and a 10 thou skim on mine, 3 years old and less than 30K miles

A bit late, as I rarely keep up to date with this forum any more

T16. Heavy yes, not overly though. Quite comparable to a Pinto. Quite tough if left alone too. Just be careful with the headgaskets, as everyone knows, they leak oil. Klingers sort this, but only when you remember to remove the little oilway restrictor in the oilway that is the source of the leak

Mounts wise, not that unconventional? Why is everyone scared of looking for alternatives? There are lands on the block where traditional RWD engine mounts used to live, used on the van and MPI Discovery. Some FWD cars even have them drilled and tapped, some blocks you have to drill yourself. Otherwise, just mod the front of the chassis with a removeable bar to pick up on the cambelt cover end mount, one for the stabiliser in the sump, and the 'rear' mount, which is now the offside...

You also need a RWD Sherpa sump too, or cut and chut the Rover one (careful, as some had tin sumps, some had aluminium).

M series internals are strong, and on a turbo engine, can be mixed with Monty turbo pistons to create a tough shortblock capable of some high boost levels.

The LT boxes have an off the shelf bellhousing, as I imparted nearly two years ago on here, along with other installation experiances BUT! There is a Ford alternative, which I am researching...

Ratios. The LT77 only has one set of ratios, for 2000/2300/2600 and 3500. The diesel is obviously different. The fifth gear ratio changed in 83, moving from 0.83 to 0.77:1, giving better, more relaxed cruising (or more top speed ).

Hope this helps some folks

Right, I've said it before, so I'll say it again!

We had Rover 200BRM and the gasket went at a 1000 miles. So what. It got repaired (under warranty) and didn't break again.

As for AA. They came to sort out our Ford Crapi when it wouldn't start, and he knocked the oil pressure warning light wire from the switch. 3 weeks later it occured to me I hadn't put any oil in for a couple of weeks (was a regular requirement) - Bone Dry. Muppets

We now have a crap french car - squeaks/rattles/broken engine mountings/ poor fuel consumption/sounds like a diesel/crap engine (bought new 2 years/12000 miles ago), and roll on it's third anniversary, when I'll be paying a visit to my local MG Rover dealer to replace it. NEVER going to buy a foreign car again.

Foreign crap. Buy British (except bikes (cos Triumph don't do a 200mph bike yet)

Dean C (this isn't a dig at you but)

Well - I have a pass to Lloyd's of London and am qualifed to place insurance business in that market. I work in an Art Foundry

All those that slate Rover have probably never had one so can stop moaning about the quality. They are fine. All german and italian cars I've owned have been scrapped. The 3 (proper) Mini, 2 SD1 V8's/827 Vitesse and 200 BRM have all been great.

ZT260 for me in March 05

ATB

Simon

ATB

[Edited on 4/4/04 by Simon]

Yay!

Someone else that will actually stick up for a malinged marque

Sick to death of people who knock Rover because it's fashionable.

Never mind, just means cheaper cars and bits for the rest of us

I am going to put the 1600 kseries in my wagon,

light, powerful, free(in my case) tunable

ok so head gasket problem, but I plan to look after it when it goes in, and i will be pleased if it goes to 60000 miles!!!

I bought british for years. Either a proper british marque or summat that was 'psuedo british' or built in UK.

I think I qualify to knock cos ive had



austin maestro
jaguar xj-s
rover 600 (company car)
rover 800 (company car)
mini clubman
hilman imp
hillman hunter
triumph dolomite sprint.
metro city
metro turbo
mini
austin ambassador
austin princess
austin montego (company car)




and the psuedos



fiesta mk1
fiesta mk2 (x2) (one was company car)
fiesta mk3
ford cortina mk5 (company car)
vauxhall cavalier mk2 (company car)
ford cortina mk1
Seirra 1.8 estate (company car)




so I cant exactly be called non patriotic.

I loved the F reg 800 when it was a year old when I had it as a co car. However, it went to the scrappy at 4 years old cos the flywheel fell off and caused so much crank damage the engine was shagged and the car depreciated to such an extent it wasnt worth repairing.

Id love to see rover succeed - especially after all the money thats been pumped into it by us in the leyland days.

BUT - rover get slagged where slagging is due.

The cars are way too old.

what the frig is with the rover 75 - a retro car made to look like a boy racer.

and what the f^&k is the streetwise.

And the final insult - an indian built car to replace metro.

this is clearly a struggling company figting to survive by relaunching improbable versions of 10 year old cars.


I broke the brit made rule 7 years ago when I bought mazda, and my current beemer.

My wifes current car is a megane 1.6 vvti. loade dwith extras for less than 12k and not a thing wrong with it - its just a year old. We owned a megane for 4 years previous, and again, no probs.

In a competitive market, rover are sadly in the relegation zone.

As a result of the decayed UK motor industy my later cars are

Renault magane
Renault megane (new type)
Mazda 323 zxi V6
BMW 318se
and shortly BMW 320d toring






atb

steve




[Edited on 6/4/04 by stephen_gusterson]

I used to hate the way Rover got slagged for the crap Honda V6 2.5 --- standard advice from pub pundits " was buy the four cylinder its made by Honda" (sic)

back to the original question of the thread (very late here, i know) but didn't lolocost have a bellhousing made for the type 9 ford box as they offered their kit with the t series turbo engine at one point. might be worth a phone call..

Ned.

lolocost use an adaptor plate to mate a t series with mt75

quote:

---

Originally posted by timf
lolocost use an adaptor plate to mate a t series with mt75

---

Hey !!! Fatboy Dave!
I LOVE rovers and all british cars,and bikes,I just dont like K series!
But if people such as Liam get their hands on a cheap engine good luck to them,cos all the figures add up!
I've only just sold my Discovery Which we've had from new,and not long before that our 22o gti which I absolutely loved to bits.As I have have said before I've owned a couple of 216 gti's as well.
I've owned 3 mgb's one of which I still own after seventeen years,one MG midget,aPerkins engined Range rover,Triumph 2500,Land Rovers Series 2/3 and 90/110 models lots of each,I've had a Leyland roadrunner7.5 tonner and a couple of british bikes.
Yes I've also had a few foreign cars as well,Datsun 240z,celica 2.0,porsche 924(dont laugh),but basically I like my british vehicles.
What do I drive now? my first foreign car for a few years actually,a 2000 model SAAB 93 turbo airflow coupe' which I really like driving before you all start taking the piss!

Ahhh, just gets right on my tits, the way, as Trident puts it, the pub pundits get on the case.

Fact is, I've had the pleasure of a T16 turbo powered car, and had the pleasure of leaving my mates Dax Rush behind at the lights

the pleasure of a blown gasket seems almost a certainty, if you have K series car for long.

There is too much evidence to argue much of a case to the opposite.

ANd at the end of the day, this whole site is a pub. How many authorative people are on here anyway....... its personal experience.

See my engine poll for more details.

atb

steve

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fatboy Dave
Ahhh, just gets right on my tits, the way, as Trident puts it, the pub pundits get on the case.

Fact is, I've had the pleasure of a T16 turbo powered car, and had the pleasure of leaving my mates Dax Rush behind at the lights

---

why isn't "flipping the diff over" really on Britishtrident?

quote:

---

Originally posted by NS Dev
why isn't "flipping the diff over" really on Britishtrident?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by stephen_gusterson
the pleasure of a blown gasket seems almost a certainty, if you have K series car for long.

There is too much evidence to argue much of a case to the opposite.

steve

[Edited on 7/4/04 by stephen_gusterson]

---

quote:

---

There is too much evidence to argue much of a case to the opposite.

---

Dave - I agree with you. I think I mentioned earlier that older cars dont get serviced.

And if a locost uses a K engine, where will it come from ....... an older car with potentially dodgy service history.

Another engine thats supposed to be crap is the DOHC 2.0 ford. I know two people that have them , no probs. I know another with a K and its blown.

We have in this thread two posts, one from an engine specialist, and another from a guy that sold on reclaimed K engines. Both are not positive affirmations of the engines integrity.

Just do a google for K series gasket failure - 16,000 hits come up

ford DOHC gasket failure gets just 918, and there have been a fair few DOHC haters on here.

ford pinto gasket failure gets just 342

ford cologne gasket failure gets just 109

The K might be a sweet engine, but on balance the outlook still isnt good.

And we still dont have a report of anyone on this board actually having one in their car right now....


atb

steve

[Edited on 9/4/04 by stephen_gusterson]

It's very true.

I guess some engines are just more prone to it.

You also have to think economies of scale. The K series is used in *everything*, just like the Pinto was. Chances are, enough have gone bang that people don't think twice about it.

I don't deny, that they do have a reputation for it, just like Rover V8s turn into sludge monsters when you don't change the oil, and Zetecs turn into tractors when the valves stick. It's just a shame a perfectly decent engine, that packs a fair punch for its size and weight can be so maligned because of a not entirely undue reputation.

Hey ho :-|

quote:

---

Originally posted by stephen_gusterson
Just do a google for K series gasket failure - 16,000 hits come up

ford DOHC gasket failure gets just 918, and there have been a fair few DOHC haters on here.

ford pinto gasket failure gets just 342

ford cologne gasket failure gets just 109

The K might be a sweet engine, but on balance the outlook still isnt good.
[Edited on 9/4/04 by stephen_gusterson]

---

thats a fair point mike.....

However....

the rover was used in stuff like metros, 200 series, 400 series, lotus, MG's caterham, - any others?

Rovers dont tend to sell much outside of the UK. The volumes wont be ballistic, but they will be high. There are few rovers in france or germany - loadsa fords tho.

If you take the Pinto, for example, that has been installed in loads of different fords, and was in use at least as long or longer than the K series. Its also been used in American cars - it came from there. So Google would also have included Pinto CAR gasket failures.


Taking into account the wider continental appeal of ford, I cant see the numbers being that different.

On the bias side, recent K publicity would have increased the hit count for K's - but I didnt read all 16,000 to check.



atb

steve

The failure per hundred cars argument is a good one. But nevertheless, and based upon experience of fixing cars, then the K series is the worst, whichever you look at it. The Fiats are close though. There are probably more Zetecs on the road than K series, and their rate of failure is considerably less. The DOHC has become a problem - through age. Wherever you have an aluminium head on an iron block you are going to get a problem eventually - no matter how you have it serviced. Pretty well any Vauxhall over 12 years old will have (or be about to have) a head gasket problem.

I have not particularly found Toyotas to be a problem - but then few Jap cars are.

I don't fully understand the lack of servicing argument. Certainly I have had lots of Rover head gasket failures at less than 30,000 miles. I think the poor thermostat arrangement, lack of material in the engine block (particularly the post 96 engines) and a head gasket reliant on silicon beading has a lot to do with it.

A FM rep (Payen Gaskets - who manufacture the OE gasket) told me a couple of weeks ago that they are working on a new MLS gasket for the engine. The V6 has already gone this way.

Just to throw another point in from across the bar!
As much as I pull the the K series down ,I never came across too many problems with the single cam 1100 & 1400 Metro engines,these are a fast , revvy little lively motor, and I could see these making good cheap conversions.Good MPG as well in light cars!
Oh yes V8 black sludge problems!I've fully rebuilt quite a few V8's some for our own use (mildly tuned for racing)and some for customers Range rovers and they are always sludged up and running quietly with no mains left.
All the ones I rebuilt though went on to do good mileages with regular oil changes and flushes, and the engines were spotless inside whenever the rocker covers came off!
Sorry if I'm agreeing with you Dave!
Your round!!!!

Mines a GUINNESS!!

Rover K series head gasket difficulties are in 2 distinct types -- minor leaks round the outside of the gasket and damage by overheating as result of leaks from the head gasket , water pump and most comononly the inlet manifold gasket.

The Rover cooling system contains little coolant and airlocks easlily the block is an open deck design with wet liners with this type of block if this type of design looses water it will blow the gasket -- this is a fact other engines in the past with similar designs suffered the same fate.

However IF the water level is watched and the gasket is changed immediately an external leak develops there is no problem.
The gasket change itself is easy and the head bolts can be reused within reason provided they are checked and cleaned properly (in addition I chase the threads with a die nut).
Dave Walkers points about the changes in the block design in late 95 after which a common block was used for all versions of the engine are very valid but a lot of the blame lies in the design of the coolant hoses which changed in 96. The Metro with its simpler hose layout is less prone to problems than the 200/400.

Somebody else made a good point about Rover raddiators -- they do tend to suffer from fatigue due to the core vibrating combined with the effects of road salt means that changing around the 90 k mile mark is a pretty good idea.
A lot of of "mechanics" don't strip the engine in the corect order, or understand the tightening procedure the first stage of which is the most vital also don't attempt to bleed the cooling system as it warms up..
At high milages the BMC A series in 1275 form was probably worse for head gasket problems than the K series but somehow because it just looked like the smaller A series everybody regarded it as a pillar of reliability.
As I said earlier my family fleet is almost entirely Rover and has been for many years the K series engines aren't as tough as the iron block Rover engines or as fit and forget as the Honda engine but they are better in many ways than anything else around.
The K series isn't a serial head gasket blower the way the Imp or Stag were, Imp head and block flexed so much the only way to keep an Imp water tight was to go 998 and fit Wills rings,while the angled head bolt design on the Stag was an invitation to disaster.

[Edited on 10/4/04 by britishtrident]

[Edited on 10/4/04 by britishtrident]

[Edited on 10/4/04 by britishtrident]

Somewhere in this thread the Pinto and Kent engines have desciribed as models of old fashioned reliability --- sorry but I am old enough to remember the original 3 bearing Kent engines eating big end bearings in 20k miles, while the kent Crossflow in 1600 form sufffers from bad cyilder bore wear if revved . The Pinto was hated by fleet managers through out the 70s because of camshaft wear-- just as well for Ford there was no UK competition. In the 70s and 80s the price of Ford engines from scrapyards was twice or three times that of any volume other make because they were in high demand and the yards were seeing so few good engine come in.

Hi,
Remember Vauxhall OHC engines which had a tendency to go all rattly just before the camshaft snapped. I had a 1.6 GL Cavalier and the engine was great and would rev to 7k RPM but everyone kept telling me to get rid of it quick as it was coming up to the magic 100k miles mark and the camshaft would probably break.

Anyone else heard of this problem or was it another localised phenomenon?
Cheers,
Craig.

Steve,

As you said, "when the AA man was fixing my BMW"

What more do I need to say

ATB

Simon

Simon,
Good point!

Out of interest, here are the reliability results by Manufacturer and whilst not great for Rover, there are a lot worse and BMW's quality craftsmanship only get's it one place higher than Rover...



ReliabilityResults

Problem with those reports on reliability and costs etc, are misleading especially as to regards the long term reliability of an engine. They only ever research vehicles upto a max of 5 years old. They are only just run in at that stage.

How many people here are using an engine that is under 5 years old?
Maybe a new poll?
At a guess I would suggest that 8 to 10 years old would be more realistic.

I seem to remember many years ago new cars having a lot of teething problems when new, but after the warranty work they became very reliable. We had a couple of different brands. It was the Japanese cars that brought reliability to the primary years. However few lasted more than 3 - 5 years in those early days.

It would seem that there are two main camps for reliability. The new car owners that want reliability for the first 3 years and the secand hand owners who don't much care what happened when new as long as the car lasts a long time.
Surely building a locost car you should fall into the later camp(?), but many of you have new cars also. The logic for assesing a new car would be completely different to an old one.

Have you ever been influenced by others recommendatons about how their car has never given trouble since they bought it new, only to buy a nail of a second hand car?
A very simplistic argument I know, but relevant.

Anyway I will stop waffling now!

Terry

Terry,
I would have agreed with you but then I took a look at the website and extracted this:

ALFA ROMEO 3.41
AUDI 4.71
BMW 5.13
CITROEN 4.51
FIAT 4.02
FORD 4.57
HONDA 5.36
HYUNDAI 5.32
JEEP 4.69
LANDROVER 4.61
MAZDA 5.77
MERCEDES 4.91
MITSUBISHI 5.75
NISSAN 5.6
PEUGEOT 4.54
RENAULT 4.16
ROVER 4.98
SAAB 5.05
SUBARU 3.9
TOYOTA 5.87
VAUXHALL 4.46
VOLKSWAGEN 4.48
VOLVO 5.24

These are the average ages of vehicles for each manufacturer covered by Warranty Direct. They say they cover any car up to 12 years old but will only begin coverage for a car up to 10 years old at the start of the policy. It's quite an interesting website.

Cheers,
Craig.

and here are average mileages.

ALFA ROMEO 39689
AUDI 61166
BMW 55812
CITROEN 49580
FIAT 35987
FORD 48253
HONDA 51652
HYUNDAI 53493
JEEP 53926
LANDROVER 51532
MAZDA 47798
MERCEDES 53899
MITSUBISHI 46237
NISSAN 52069
PEUGEOT 49216
RENAULT 43400
ROVER 45405
SAAB 59927
SUBARU 37018
TOYOTA 50953
VAUXHALL 50645
VOLKSWAGEN 48083
VOLVO 57427

Remember these are "averages" and there will be just as many above as below (more or less anyway). Also, I think this company only handles cover OUTSIDE of the manufacturers warranty which might explain the slightly higher average age for those manufacturer who tend to give longer warranties themselves.

Cheers,
Craig.

I think you've just proved Fatboy Dave right!!! Do you take these statistics around with you in a carrier bag,under your anorak..
I really didn't think anyone took any notice of crappy polls!!!
Anyone can juggle figures !!If they're not doing it to sell cars it's to sell magazines or even the information itself!!

Dean,
You've lost me there mate...

These figures are from the website of a well respected warranty provider who make money or lose money based on the accuracy of such data. If, however, they were misreporting the reliability to the detriment of the manufacturers then I'm sure the likes of BMW would throw a dozen lawyers their way to sort it out.

I'm not naive enough to believe any old figures which someone gives me but unless you want to continue to base your decisions on rumour and speculation then you have to start somewhere and in many cases it is well worth paying good money for reliable data. I came across this website when researching the reliability of small cars as my wife was about to purchase one and above all I wanted a reliable one as I'm fed up fixing them when they go wrong. BBC's Top Gear also reference this site from their own and I have a great deal of respect for their judgement as well (especially before they all split and formed 5th gear)

At the end of the day I'd rather bet my life on the accuracy of data like this than some random AA man or some mechanic's pal I met at the pub!!

The website is here if you want to make up your own mind.

Cheers,
Craig.

To add another to the list of the brave, I have just ordered a k series engine which will replace my current pinto installation.

Reason for change......weight, economy, noise, tunibility and yes, before you all start laughing, reliability.

I did a fair bit of research before making my choice of engine and obviously was informed about the evil that is the head gasket problem.

My conclusion agrees with some earlier suggested points about airlocks in the cooling system. Knowing two people who have had 'k's blow (1 was a smashed sump, the other was a head gasket) this cooling issue stacks up. I have contacted a number sources who between them have fitted well into 4 figures worth of k series engines and they all agree on this.

I guess i should menion here that my family have had three k series cars ok and i know of around 30 or so people who still have them with no problems.( for the statisticians out there thats a 2.9% engine failure rate).

I even spoke to a maindealer who told me the k can be a nightmare to bleed and he imagined many people end up running with airlocks and a proportion of those experience problems.

In essense if you dont get a good coolant bleed on filling and end up with an airlock, the engine may run fine but a little hot in the head (which is where the air usually ends up), give it some time and bang...

So all being well i will collect the k next week and begin the "swap", could be fun.

As a result of the swap i will be selling the components of my pinto installation, these will be avaliable as soon as i remove them.

the engine is a 2l injection pinto running on twin 40 dellorto carbs, for which i actually have a serice pack ready to be used(£70 new), vulcan non-vacuum distributor etc, vulcan low line sump. The carbs are on a short and slightly offset alloy manifold and have a twin cable linkage.

The engine has done 2000miles since the carbs and alike were installed. The sump and the distributor ,as well as most the engine ancillaries, were new at that time.

Ideally the carbs, manifold and dizzy make a good package as you gan put them on and go (might be worth usng the service kit first as one gasket needs replacing) and the sump is a tidy bit of kit.

I am quite happy to remove any parts people want and sell them individually if hte price is ok..

One other thing to watch out for that could cause the outer silicone seal of the gasket to blow is the valve in the the coolant tank cap sticking --- I have never seen this on a K series but I have on the 820 which uses the same type of cap.