chriscook
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| posted on 22/2/07 at 06:11 PM |
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Another petition - protecting engineers
Greetings
Astronautics engineer Jon Jennings has this week leapt on the online
petition bandwagon to call for the title of "engineer" to be a protected
title. Jennings has joined an escalating list of people using 10 Downing
Street's online petition trial to drum up support for his campaign to
restore respect in engineers.
"Car mechanics, plumbers and electricians are now commonly referred to
as engineers and banks now regard engineers as semi skilled," says his
petition.
With 2,400 signatories to date, the petition already tops the "business
and industry" category. But it still lags well behind the road pricing
petition which received 1.7M signatories before it closed on Tuesday and
even falls short of the 3,707 who want the prime minister to stand on
his head and juggle ice-cream.
So if you agree that the status of the engineer is undervalued in
society sign the petition:
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Engineer-Status/
Oh and of course pass it on to all your engineering friends.
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flak monkey
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| posted on 22/2/07 at 06:36 PM |
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Well its true!
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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MkIndy7
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| posted on 22/2/07 at 06:52 PM |
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As a rescently qualified "Gas Engineer" what should I be calling myself?
I've been to College and i've studied.
It is a completely different job from a plumber... and a "Gas Man" sounds completely unprofessional!.
Obviously an Aeronautical Engineer is a different level and most people would realise and respect it accordingly by its title, or use the letters
after your name like a degree.
Putting the shoe on the other foot there are pen pushers and penny pinchers in offices that call themselfes engineers, and they design such dreadfuly
awful and poorly designed products that have no place in the real world.
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liam.mccaffrey
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| posted on 22/2/07 at 06:54 PM |
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Ive signed, and ill get all the other engineers at work to sign the thing as well.
I have business cards from Dutch and German guys and theirs say
Eng. A N Other
a bit like Dr or Rev.
edit:
to reply to the previous post, you have a valid point, I think this should be reserved for people with chartered or incorporated status
[Edited on 22/2/07 by liam.mccaffrey]
[Edited on 22/2/07 by liam.mccaffrey]
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MattCraneCustoms
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| posted on 22/2/07 at 07:20 PM |
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I have signed, I'm not an engineer yet but Im studying to be a motorsport engineer. Its not just with engineers, its across the board, like
caterers being called food technicians lol
Regards
Matt
Oh and I also signed the one about blair standing on his head juggling ice cream. you NEVER know . .
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Confused but excited.
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| posted on 22/2/07 at 07:44 PM |
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As I have always understood it an engineer is a person (oh how PC!) with a related qualification at least at degree level, or with sufficient relevant
experience in a senior technical position. If you have 'been to college' ( and assuming you gained the relevant qualifications whilst
there) you're a technician!
An engineer is a title earned and gained once you reach a 'professional' level.
Having said all that, I once met a guy who designed the 'electric bits' of power stations and called himself an electrician! 
[Edited on 22/2/07 by Confused but excited.]
Tell them about the bent treacle edges!
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SixedUp
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| posted on 22/2/07 at 07:57 PM |
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These are the boys that are responsible for maintaining the standards around professionalism in engineering in the UK: http://www.engc.org.uk/
And these are the people that they authorise to inspect and test that people meet the grade in their own area of engineering. Plumbing, motor,
electrical (and many others) all appear to be represented: http://www.engc.org.uk/Registration/Institutions.aspx
Methinks Mr Jennings is just looking for someone to massage his (aeronautical) ego...
Cheers
Richard
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Ian D
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| posted on 22/2/07 at 08:49 PM |
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To be an engineer you need to be a member of the relevant professional body and be entitled to use the post nominals I Eng, C Eng etc.
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907
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| posted on 22/2/07 at 09:20 PM |
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Just for curiosity I've looked it up in the dictionary.
(Collins Gem. I've only got a little one. )
As I interpret the text below, if your in charge, organize or instigate, you are an engineer.
If you make, install or repair, then you are not.
Paul G
[Edited on 22/2/07 by 907]
 
Rescued attachment dict s.jpg
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birt
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| posted on 22/2/07 at 09:24 PM |
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This isn't about Mr Jenning's opinion, The term 'Engineer' is used correctly in most other countries than the UK.
Most 'Engineers' have done Maths & Physics A Leves, a 4 year Engineering Masters degree (mechanical, aeronautical, civil, etc) of
which the first semester shadowed the Mathematics degree course. They will have spent endless nights getting their head around Laplace transforms,
Lagrangian mechanics and solving partial differential equations whilst their fellow students studying Geography and English were out pissing their
loans up the wall. They will have gone on to spend a minimum or a further 4 years in a professional engineering position before undertaking a
technical interview to be considered as a chartered engineer by their relevant institution. These are the people that are responsible for keeping the
aeroplanes you fly on it the air, the bridges you cross from collapsing and the cars you drive from crushing you to death in an accident and it
requires a very high level of technical and practical expertise to carry out these jobs.
If you have gone through this, then it is no wander that you may get a little peeved when some chap, who did a 2 year part time qualification, comes
round to look at your washing machine calls himself an engineer. Don’t get me wrong, trades people such as plumbers and electricians deserve their
recognition as skilled workers but they are not engineers.
MkIndy7 sums it up: “what should I be calling myself” Good question, in the UK, we have grown to use the word engineer to the point that it actually
‘sounds’ right to say Gas Engineer where it should be Technician or something else more appropriate. I also agree that Gas Man does not do you enough
justice. I hope that doesn’t sound derogatory, congratulations on completing your studies, I’m sure you deserve to go on and have a successful
career. However, if I hear Gas Engineer, I would expect that person to be involved at the atomic/molecular level of Gas Engineering - maybe a
chemical weapons expert or something.
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shades
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| posted on 22/2/07 at 09:43 PM |
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Disagree, Sorry a pet hate hate... How does keeping a diary for two years and having an interview with other C Engs, Paying to be a member of a
"profesional" body make you an engineer?
quote:
Originally posted by Ian D
To be an engineer you need to be a member of the relevant professional body and be entitled to use the post nominals I Eng, C Eng etc.
Thanks
Adrian
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Chippy
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| posted on 22/2/07 at 09:53 PM |
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Golly, never knew I was an "engineer", I used to build things, so must be, whoopy!!!!!. I even have letters after my name, MIMBM &
MIOB. What a load of rubbish. Its not what your called, its what you know, that earns respect, and more importantly how much you earn. IMHO Ray
To make a car go faster, just add lightness. Colin Chapman - OR - fit a bigger engine. Chippy
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JoelP
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| posted on 22/2/07 at 09:54 PM |
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i have a degree, does that make me a kitchen engineer?! 
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MkIndy7
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| posted on 22/2/07 at 09:59 PM |
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The more I read of it I can kind of see where he's coming from..
Just like people who have earnt a Doctorate.. only for a celebrity to also become a "honary" doctorate!
It does seem like as people have become more white collar and retail workers the term "engineer" has become a word loosely used for
anybody who can do manual work with advanced technical knowledge, so as mentioned maybe "technician" would be a better term.
But.. its now so commonly used it would be hard to change just like buying Veg in Kg's it aint really ever gunna happen! you still go to the
supermarket for 5lbs of potatoes.
Althought these online pertitions are a good idea and a voice for the public.. I think there going to become abused and then no notice will be taken
of them (not that was ever was goin to be!).
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birt
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| posted on 22/2/07 at 10:32 PM |
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Adrian,
If all you did was keep a diary and pay your fees but were not demonstrating competance as a professional engineer then you would not be granted
chartered status since you would fail miserably in your interview. The various reports, logs and stuff are required to demonstrate your continuing
engineering expertise and development and if you were to lie in them you would come unstuck when you were asked to go into techincal detail about what
you have written at your interview. Maybe there is a better way of doing it but it is difficult without having someone from the institution
personally monitoring you daily.
However, I think I am with you to a certain extent... it is all a bit ‘old boys club’ full of bureaucratic bo*#ocks and you get sweet FA in return
for your fees (apart from a few letters after your name). Many talented engineers are not chartered or even a member of a professional body. This is
the precise reason that the title Engineer should be reserved for those in a professional engineering job with real engineering qualifications. That
way, engineers would not have to distinguish themselves from skilled tradesman via professional institutions.
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liam.mccaffrey
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| posted on 22/2/07 at 10:45 PM |
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i agree with birt,
there should be a distinction,
I am striving to become chartered at the moment following university and i have a very responsible job,
I take pride in the fact i am an engineer (maybe I'm not yet really) yet when I tell people I'm a mechanical engineer they think i'm
a mechanic or i fix washing machines.
not that there is a thing wrong with either of those things, its just that most people seem to have the wrong idea about what engineers are/do
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NeilP
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| posted on 22/2/07 at 10:59 PM |
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Mechanical Engineer - Could have become chartered 13 years ago - Been working in jobs in the UK for the last 11 years which in Germany I
wouldn't be able to without the ticket - So, ticket in the UK carries very little weight once you move beyond the doing into the managing -
Don't get me wrong - I'm intensely proud to be an engineer but I let it show in the work that I do and the hobbies that I have.
UK needs to sort this out - Big institutions are so out of kilter with reality that it's just not true - If they really wanted to do something
about engineering then they'd get into the Primary schools and light a few fires under the little buggers rather than worry about membership
levels. I can't bring myself to join the circus.
Rant over - Cheers guys
Perversely, most proper 'engineers' I talk to think that my little hobby is 'real engineering' - Go figure...
If you pay peanuts...
Mentale, yar? Yar, mentale!
Drive it like you stole it!
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DavidM
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| posted on 22/2/07 at 11:36 PM |
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Unfortunately you won't change a thing in this country now. Businesses are now primarily run by accountants who have little appreciation of the
distinctions.
Mind you, there was a time when they were called bookeepers!
David
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gazza285
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| posted on 23/2/07 at 05:22 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by MkIndy7
As a rescently qualified "Gas Engineer" what should I be calling myself?
I've been to College and i've studied.
It is a completely different job from a plumber... and a "Gas Man" sounds completely unprofessional!.
Sounds like your a gas fitter then.......
I'm a mechanical fitter by trade, I actually do the job of installing and keeping things going. The mechanical engineer above me is the man that
gets paid more to instruct me how to do it, and is usually a well meaning idiot with a large, mostly useless theoretical knowledge and no actual,
hands on experience of how to achieve the goals he desires.
A typical problem is found. The engineer is informed and retires into his warm office, portacabin, or Mitsubishi L200 Crew cab to fiddle with his
computer and mobile phone. Upon his return five hours later he finds that the problem has been solved in, and assisted by, his absence. He can then
report back to head office that the crisis is solved, and he can bask in the reflected glory.
Meanwhile outside it is raining again, and my high visibility coat has a thousand tiny holes all over it from the combined burning, welding and
grinding sparks, rendering it unable to keep me both warm and dry.
DO NOT PUT ON KNOB OR BOLLOCKS!
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birt
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| posted on 23/2/07 at 07:59 AM |
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And the Mechanical Engineer above you probably thinks the same about the Senior Engineer who thinks the same about his Manager, who thinks the same
about the Directors who think the same about the MD. The further down the 'food chain' you are the more apparent work you do and it is
normal to believe the people above you are not worth their salt. In reality most people would struggle to fill the shoes of their superiors or at
least would find it a damn sight tougher than they ever believed, that's because the skills required are usually very different and less
associated with hard graft.
[Edited on 23/2/07 by birt]
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chriscook
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| posted on 23/2/07 at 08:20 AM |
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I was going to post my views but just read what birt said. Suppose I'd best finish off my IMechE paperwork - if it gave me the right to call
myself an engineer then I would have done it a lot sooner.
Chris
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flak monkey
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| posted on 23/2/07 at 08:29 AM |
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I agree with what Birt is saying. And as such dont feel the need to repeat it. He worded it much better than I ever could
We have had discussions about this at uni before. As far as the engineering dept at uni is concerned, engineers are those with at least a BEng or MEng
qualification/title (not an MSc/Ma etc) who can then, and often do, go on to get chartered status. Apprentice trained people are technicians or
fitters, its a skilled job, but skilled in a different way.
And I think Gazza is just a bit cynical  . Unfortunately his perception of engineering managers may hold true, and it does always suprise me some of
the questions that get asked in lectures, and even more so when i see poor technical drawings or the inability to use simple machines and even hand
tools from 4th yr undergrads. I am lucky in that I have been able to get a degree, and pick up an awful lot of practical knowledge and skills from my
father who is apprentice trained and has been a 'technician' for 35+ years (much of that working in R&D) in a traditional
manufacturing facility.
At the end of the day being an engineer is different to being a techncian or fitter, the skills required are at a different level, but they are both
skilled jobs, requiring a lot of training. The reaon people have poor expectations of one or the other is that they dont understand their true role in
the structure of the company.
David
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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gazza285
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| posted on 23/2/07 at 01:38 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
And I think Gazza is just a bit cynical .
It is an accusation that has been levelled at me before.
The post was aimed in jest, but the above scenario does hold true for some of the engineers we work with, but not all by any means. The senior
engineers are much more likely to give the fitters more credit and let them get on with the job, and they will ask for the fitters opinions, while the
younger engineers generally are more likely to have a superiority complex and will not listen as well. One young engineer who was being a little too
high handed for the lads liking even came out with the statement "You've got to do it my way, I've got letters after my name"
to which the reply was "Yeh, C * * T." The senoir site engineer fell about laughing.
DO NOT PUT ON KNOB OR BOLLOCKS!
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DarrenW
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| posted on 23/2/07 at 03:21 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Confused but excited.
As I have always understood it an engineer is a person (oh how PC!) with a related qualification at least at degree level, or with sufficient relevant
experience in a senior technical position. If you have 'been to college' ( and assuming you gained the relevant qualifications whilst
there) you're a technician!
An engineer is a title earned and gained once you reach a 'professional' level.
Having said all that, I once met a guy who designed the 'electric bits' of power stations and called himself an electrician!
[Edited on 22/2/07 by Confused but excited.]
When i first read this the word nutsack sprang to mind ref the 'at least degree qualified' bit. But at least it also said or at least
relevant senior technician status and experience.
The problem with engineering is that as a career it is a huge vast subject. Myself i completed a 4 year engineering degree whereby i bacame a
qualified toolmaker, worked in various engineering departments and also gained HNC in mechanical and production engineering followed by ONC in
electrical engineering and also a host of various other practical based qualifications such as 16th edition, hydraulics, pneumaticsetc etc etc. I then
spent the next 16 years (so far) working as production engineer, senior project engineer, project manager in various disciplines and topped up
academic work with advanced diploma (post grad) at Durham University - where even though i didnt have the base degree i did have a host of other
qualifying certifications and past experience.
I therefore strongly defend my status as qualified engineer with that background. (and here is the contentious comment) - i would certainly regard
myself as more capable than someone who has been to University for a while with no work experience, but what i wouldnt do is take a position in a
field where i didnt have the relevany skills just under the fact that iam an 'Engineer'. I fully recognise that the disciplines are too
varied to be a master at them all.
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DarrenW
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| posted on 23/2/07 at 03:38 PM |
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I fully understand why those engineers with a degree defend their engineering status. Its fair to say that route into engineering is particulary
difficult and probs the hardest degree to achieve. When discussing if Apprentice trained people are engineers or not i guess you have to look deeper
into what type of apprenticeship has been undertaken.
Had i just settled with a basic apprenticeship and worked as a maintenace fitter then perhaps i wouldnt call myself an engineer. In my case however i
have continued th etraining and qualifications well beyond that of a technician. What i chose to do in the early years was to earn a living and learn
a trade and continue that beyond the basic certification. The apprenticeship itself was extremely involved and detailed and involved learning many
disciplines under the guidance of the EITB as opposed to doing a joinery, building, gas fitting etc apprenticeship working for a small company.
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