stephen_gusterson
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| posted on 10/12/04 at 12:58 AM |
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another one for the gun debate
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/music/4083871.stm
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Benzine
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| posted on 10/12/04 at 01:33 AM |
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Dimebag is my biggest guitar influence. He's the reason i started to play and his music was a gateway to the music i listen to today. RIP Dime
The mental gymnastics a landlord will employ to justify immoral actions is clinically fascinating. Just because something is legal doesn't make
it moral.
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derf
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| posted on 10/12/04 at 02:44 AM |
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guns don't kill people, people whot pull triggers kill people. If there were no guns we'd still be beating eachother over the head with
swords and big hammers. It's just the newest way to kill
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 10/12/04 at 08:30 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by derf
guns don't kill people, people whot pull triggers kill people.
They just make it soooo much easier....
David
(don't get me wrong - I used to be a shooter - but I take the realistic view)
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Peteff
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| posted on 10/12/04 at 10:46 AM |
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No motive again.
The Michael Ryan documentary was on this week, the Hungerford massacre, and nobody knows why these things happen. If you were carrying something big
enough to beat 3 people to death before you were brought down you wouldn't get through the door. There will always be lunatics who want to kill
people but it should be made harder for them to get the tools to do it. If you want to shoot guns join the army
yours, Pete
I went into the RSPCA office the other day. It was so small you could hardly swing a cat in there.
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stephen_gusterson
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| posted on 10/12/04 at 11:23 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by derf
guns don't kill people, people whot pull triggers kill people. If there were no guns we'd still be beating eachother over the head with
swords and big hammers. It's just the newest way to kill
nothing personal derf, but that is, and remains, a really supid statement.
there are lots of whacky people in society. Not all can be trusted with a personal weapon. But all seem to be able to get one.
There was a quote from a tv prog on here along the lines of its easier to get a gun license than a driving license in the usa.
Dont confuse the 'right' to have guns for controlled sporting purposes, with that of one for general self defence.
What distills it for me, was the pictures on a taser box I saw in I think Target stores in usa (it was one of those personal, hold against attacker
jobbies). Picture on the box, was a concerned looking blonde babe, with her taser in her hand, walking towards her car in a deserted parking lot.
Great, Shes safe cos shes got a tazer. So, the correct technique for mr rapist, it to get his OWN taser (the box picckie gives him a good pictorial
clue) then zap the babe, and do what you want when she is senseless.
A year ago, someone here got jail for tyoing to import one over the internet. In americal, your DIY rapist kit is in Walmart.
Downstairs, I have several remote controls. Tv, video, dvd etc. It i press a button I can switch a tv or whatever on or off. A gun in the hands of the
general public is as clinical as a remote control. just pull a trigger, and you switch someone off. Its easy. Any of us could (in america) leave our
front door, with our gun, and blast away. All it takes is the right pressure. Lose your job, your wife leaves you, lose the house, dogs run over, so
off you go with your gun.
contrasting with the gun remote control - the use of a knife is so much more personal. Having to actually press into the body, and feel the action of
the knife killing someone. Not as clinical as bang bang you are dead.
Its too easy to kill with a gun and they are far too available in the usa.
yeah, perhaps self protection is the normal excuse, but the guy coming for you has one already! first strike wins - and its prob not you if the
burglar sees you waking up.
atb
steve
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The Shootist
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 posted on 10/12/04 at 08:37 PM |
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If the burglar sees you 1st??
Don't have many break-ins of occupied houses here.
Leathal force is only justified if a fear of death or great physical injury is justified, but the legal precidence is, that anyone who will break-in
with you home IS willing to kill you. If someone breaks in with you home, a shooting is self defense.....period.
As far as being stopped with a weapon big enough to kill several people......you drive one all the time. Although in a Locost it might get you a tad
messy.
Killers are killers. Take the gun he'll use a knife. Take the knife he'll use a car, etc. etc.
With guns commonly available there is a known deterent. With no guns there is no reason not to break-in, even when the folks are at home.
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Staple balls
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| posted on 10/12/04 at 09:15 PM |
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Guns are an interesting subject, they're a great tool for depersonalising killing and at short range require very little skill to do a lot of
damage.
They're also reasonably easy to aquire in the UK dispite being illegal etc.
Still they're not the only way to kill people, if someone wants someone else dead, they'll find a way to make it happen.
As a strange side note, it's totally legal to own say, a crossbow in the UK, which are more than sufficent for home security, and i assure you,
they will do enough damage to stop anyone in your home being alive. 
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Stu16v
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| posted on 10/12/04 at 09:16 PM |
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quote:
Take the knife he'll use a car, etc. etc.
Exactly my thoughts. A vehicle in the wrong hands is just as, if not more capable of killing in numbers as a gun is. OK, so maybe not with so much
accuracy, but would that bother the 'Micheal Ryan' type?
A gun is designed as a killing machine, a car hasn't. Doesnt make it any less lethal in the wrong hands...
Dont just build it.....make it!
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Peteff
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| posted on 10/12/04 at 09:28 PM |
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a crossbow in the UK, which are more than sufficent for home security,
Not very comfortable stuck in your waistband or under the pillow though.
Shootist, if he'd taken his car into the concert I think someone might have noticed that before he killed 3 people with it.
yours, Pete
I went into the RSPCA office the other day. It was so small you could hardly swing a cat in there.
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Cita
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| posted on 10/12/04 at 09:39 PM |
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A burglar with a bullet between his eye's will never brake in again...i think,or it had to be at St-Peter's gate.
In Israel 80% of the familys have guns at home and there is no excesive killing with guns used for family troubles,neighbour troubles etc....
There is no way any law can stop criminals from getting/using guns for their "activity's" so the only thing a gun restricting law
will do is make it harder for the citizen to buy one and defend himself.
It's not very difficult to make a gun with the help of the internet,even a 9 mm machine gun can be made without the use of machine tools like a
lathe,milling machine etc...with ordinary hardware and simple handtools.
Accidents will happen all the time and lunatics will be around also all the time but banning the car because many innocent children have died in car
accidents is not very realistic.
The criminal who brings a gun with him has the intention to use it.
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stephen_gusterson
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| posted on 10/12/04 at 10:57 PM |
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a car is for transportation, but could be misused.
What is a gun designed for?
atb
steve
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phelpsa
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| posted on 10/12/04 at 11:08 PM |
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If someone wants to get something that much then they will get it.
But, if someone has had a lot of trouble/mad/oppotunist then if there isn't a gun around they won't use it. This is what most massacres
are nowadays.
Adam
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Cita
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| posted on 10/12/04 at 11:23 PM |
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A gun is designed to shoot a bullet with high speed and accuracy.
A knife is designed to cut.
A pencil is designed to write.
An axe is designed to cut wood.
Al these things can be used to kill people.
One can talk around it for ages but very few guns have killed people by themselve.
What is wrong by saying that it are the people who do the killing,not the bullet,axe,knive,pencil etc....
[Edited on 10/12/04 by Cita]
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The Shootist
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| posted on 10/12/04 at 11:57 PM |
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Actually Cita
A 9mm machine gun is easier to make that a semi-auto. (Strange but true)
One of the many hobbies that I pick-up and drop as it suits me is target shooting. As good target guns are pricey, I also do my own gunsmithing. (I
have a 12x30 engine lathe that will ship from Michigan next Weds. if all goes to plan.) A full-auto is sooo easy to make that I have been tempted to
apply for the Class III paperwork to manufacture one.
The biggest thing that draws me to guns isn't the destructive capacity. I don't care for "Black Rifles"(refers to the black
Parkerized finish on military weapons) but I do love the dicipline required to make that .22 bench rifle I built from scrounged parts, throw a slug
50yds and punch out a bullseye which is .10" in dia. I have about $300 USD in this gun, and I can't think of one single part that
isn't modified by my own hand.
Persons of the opinion that gun are designed to kill don't understand the way that war is waged. Guns, especially military guns are intended to
WOUND not kill. The anti-assault weapon crowd in the US claimed that military ammo was "full metal jacket" to make it more destructive
WRONG FMJ is designed to penetrate and wound, but to kill outright. Hunting ammo is almost always soft point expanding slug that flattens to more than
twice the cross-section when it hits. Some will claim that military ammo will penitrate a bullet proof vest.... so will a .22 Magnum RIMFIRE.
My interest in guns is the same as one of you UK chaps might like darts(got a board hung in the garage, boss wants to put one up at work), or Cricket,
football, bowling, cars.....
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white130d
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| posted on 11/12/04 at 12:06 AM |
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22 mag
I did a little shooting last Sunday. Had 2 45 pistols , a 12ga shotgun and a .22 mag. Trust me no haybales were harmed in this venture.
 
Rescued attachment Dsc00616.jpg
"There's only 2 things that money can't buy, and that's true love and home grown tomatos" Guy Clark
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white130d
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| posted on 11/12/04 at 12:07 AM |
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arsenal
Here is the bonnet shot....
 
Rescued attachment Dsc00611.jpg
"There's only 2 things that money can't buy, and that's true love and home grown tomatos" Guy Clark
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Benzine
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| posted on 11/12/04 at 12:31 AM |
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"It seems to be there's going to be a point in our development or evolution when we put our guns aside." Bill Hicks
EDIT: Not aimed at your guns, white130d, by the way Killing others context meant ^_^
[Edited on 11/12/04 by Benzine]
The mental gymnastics a landlord will employ to justify immoral actions is clinically fascinating. Just because something is legal doesn't make
it moral.
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stephen_gusterson
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| posted on 11/12/04 at 12:36 AM |
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cmon cita thats really stretching things
I could jam a pencil in someones eye and kill em if I wanted to.
but a gun isnt designed to fire bullets! Its designed to kill or maim. The bullet is just a mechanism. Its a bit like saying that your tv is designed
to fire a stream of electrons at a glass plate. You are describing a mechanism, not a final aim or function.
the designer of the gun im sure didnt intend it for target practice!
atb
steve
quote:
Originally posted by Cita
A gun is designed to shoot a bullet with high speed and accuracy.
A knife is designed to cut.
A pencil is designed to write.
An axe is designed to cut wood.
Al these things can be used to kill people.
One can talk around it for ages but very few guns have killed people by themselve.
What is wrong by saying that it are the people who do the killing,not the bullet,axe,knive,pencil etc....
[Edited on 10/12/04 by Cita]
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Cita
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| posted on 11/12/04 at 09:07 AM |
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You are right Stephen,i indeed am stretching things to make clear that it are the people who handle the objects that do the killing,not the objects
itself.
If you kill somebody, for whatever reason,
than you can be in two states of mind:you are fully aware of what you are doing - or you are not aware of what you are doing.
The first catagory is the coldharted killer who will kill with any weapon,including a pencil if neccesary,so banning gun's wont stop him.
The second catagory contains the killing by accident in which a gun plays a major role.
If one is not in a clear state of mind than he's probably not able to make a well thought over choice wich weapon will be best to commit his
action with at that moment.Any weapon will do but for some strange reason,our brain is programmed to look for the most effective one.Very often the
gun is the most effective because it requires little effort,can be used from a distance and due the lack of physical contact during the action,will
give us a "safe" feeling.Perhaps the greatest disadvantage is that a gun can be used several times over a very short period of time which
gives the user the chance to "correct" his attempts in his effort to take his opponent out whithout increasing his own chances of being
harmed.
I'm not worried about guns but i'm worried about tha fact that people using them without being aware of the dangers.
We have come to a point where it is accepted that children are killed on the road every day yet nobody in his "right mind" would think of
banning the car in general,and the fact that a car is not designed to kill is'nt much of a difference for the parents of those children.
Responsability is not only a matter of the state Stephen.
I hope you never gonna have to do it Stephen but it's more effective to stick that pencil up in somebody nose than in his eye
[Edited on 11/12/04 by Cita]
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Dick Axtell
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| posted on 11/12/04 at 03:20 PM |
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Per Capita Ownership
Guys,
Just a general observation, having just caught this thread.
Which country has the dubious honour of the highest per capita gun ownership?
Switzerland. They have a standing "citizens army". But not so many unauthorised shootings - YET!!!
Work-in-Progress: Changed to Zetec + T9. Still trying!!
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Cita
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| posted on 11/12/04 at 03:32 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Dick Axtell
Guys,
Just a general observation, having just caught this thread.
Which country has the dubious honour of the highest per capita gun ownership?
Switzerland. They have a standing "citizens army". But not so many unauthorised shootings - YET!!!
The men in Switzerland indeed keep their weapon at home untill they are 45 years old i believe,but they have to do an every year training.
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DEAN C.
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| posted on 11/12/04 at 03:46 PM |
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WHEN GUNS ARE OUTLAWED ONLY OUTLAWS WILL HAVE GUNS!
NOW THAT IT IS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO GET ANY GUNS LEGALLY IT IS REPUTEDLY MUCH EASIER TO GET THEM ILLEGALLY!
This is backed up by some mates of mine that are in Police drug squads,when I asked a friend how many drug dealers carry guns his reply was a little
scary "ALL OF THEM"".
Oh Stephen! I do think that not all guns are designed for killing,I have a couple designed purely for target and clay shooting. Yes just like a car
they could be used in anger!
It is unfortunate that the way in which all of the newer gun laws in this country have been implemented that they have actually made things worse in
someways,driving a lot of illegal guns underground.
I recently handed in an Air cartridge revolver which I intended to compete in Practical pistol competitions,this I did as a good citizen boere the
deadline recently.
AS they were only low powered they were classed as air pistols and therefore previously not on any licence.Guess what,only 10% have been handed in,and
with some skillful machining they have been adapted to fire .22 bullets by villians.
So now there are quite a few thousand of them floating around,most quite innocently by people who did not know about the new laws coming in.Virtually
no publicity was given about this,and now it is an offence to own one,so how do people get rid of them when they find out they already are breaking
the law and face imprisonment for owning up late.
Yet again another badly handled cock up!
Vote Labour? I dont think so!
DEAN C.
Once I've finished a project why do I start another?
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Jasper
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| posted on 11/12/04 at 03:49 PM |
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Why not just make Nukes legal over there then and put us all out of our misery .......
If you're not living life on the edge you're taking up too much room.
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Cita
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| posted on 11/12/04 at 05:45 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Jasper
Why not just make Nukes legal over there then and put us all out of our misery .......
What misery Jasper?
The misery criminals create for us or the misery we create for the criminals.
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