Jasper
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| posted on 3/9/05 at 03:44 PM |
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Ahhhh - the wonderful Bush finally showing his true colours ......... utterly f*cking useless, just as well for him he can't be up for election
again
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sgraber
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| posted on 3/9/05 at 03:49 PM |
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The response by the govt. has been underwhelming. Only today, 6 dys later has there been the type of response that should have occured on days 2-3.
The American public, myself included, are mad as hell about it. There will be hell to pay at election time. and hopefully before then. The disaster
relief effort has been woefully inadequate. But maybe if I can interject some perspective on the situation. None of us. NONE OF US! Can comprehend the
scale and breadth of this situation. The entire gulf coast for hundreds of miles and for several miles inland was completely obliterated. The
destruction continues inland at a lesser scale for dozens, if not hundreds more miles. This was a developed area with population and infrastructure
and personal property in the millions. Picture the ENTIRE southern half of England being wiped out...
Jasper, your comments are the most asinine and abhorent I have ever had to read! KARMA!? BLACKS!? GLOBAL WARMING?! You sir, are a disgrace to rational
human thought.
If you want to talk about Americans being wasteful that is fine, I don't take issue with that. As a whole, the USA is wasteful... And that is
something that many of us take issue with. I recycle, drive a gas sipping car, live close to my work, and so do a lot of Americans. Many others are
wasteful. But what the F-ing hell does that have to do with people dying in a G-damn hurricane disaster the likes have never been seen before!? And
you can claim that the rescue response was slow because they are BLACK people!? When was the last time we had a disaster like this? Are you able to
make a direct comparison to any other event in modern history? If not, then how can you make such an abhorrent and hateful statement?
Go ahead, all of you other loony's hop on the bandwagon. And don't stop there! Blame the USA for everything else while you're at
it. I am sick and tired of listening to such pathetic drivel. While you're at it- I am sure that you will tell me that the last ice age, some
millions of years ago was caused by those wasteful "American" dinosaurs. Shut UP already!
What I find most pathetic is that you take advantage of the most devastating of situations, the time when we are weakest and most in need of your
support and understanding, to find all that is wrong with our admitedly flawed yet great country.
You should be ashamed of yourselves.
Steve Graber
Steve Graber
http://www.grabercars.com/
"Quickness through lightness"
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Jasper
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| posted on 3/9/05 at 04:23 PM |
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Ahh Steve - you have obviously read rather a lot into my comments.
FACT - the US Government has not wanted to sign up to the Kyoto Accord because the men in power want US people to use more fuel because they own the
US oil industries (Bush family for one). Because of this the US pollutes our atmostphere far faster than other country and will do nothing to try to
reduce those emissions.
It is now nearly universally accepted that we are facing serious climate change exacerbated by green house emissions. This is causing up warming of
our oceans helping to fuel more violent weather conditions.
So the two are linked whether you like it or not, it has EVERYTHING to do with people dying in hurricanes - and your government doesn't want to
do anything about it.
And I did NOT claim that the response was slow because they were black people, read what I wrote:
But the ones who suffer most - the poorer black people - not the whities in power......
This may be being said it some media, but it was not the point I was making. What I was saying it that the US govt and the people in power want the
revenue from their fuel/power businesses, but it's the poor people who are paying the price for it - and in this region they happen to be
black.
Sorry - I don't understand why you need my support, but I do have every sympathy for the people suffering in the affected areas. If you're
in need of aid then your government just had to ask. Through the help of our customers in our business we managed to raise over £5000 for the tsunami
appeal, so don't call me unsympathetic.
My point was that is the poor working class of America that are paying for the greed and short sightedness of the powers that be that do not want to
admit that their policies are greatly contributing to the climate change that we are currently facing, and that many goverments are now trying to
tackle, all be it slowly.
More American people need to realise this and vote in a government that will try to change things - IMHO.
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sgraber
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| posted on 3/9/05 at 05:18 PM |
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You sir, have missed the point entirely. 
And don't think for a moment that I am not intelligent enough to grasp the complexities of the greater issues that surround us. Including the
science behind global warming, the geo-political issues and strategies that drive acquisition of fossil fuel reserves and also the natural eonic
cycles of heating and cooling.
All of that is so far beyond the original scope of this post. And worthy of it's own topic. Why don't you start one?
Steve
Steve Graber
http://www.grabercars.com/
"Quickness through lightness"
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steve_gus
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| posted on 3/9/05 at 08:14 PM |
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/americas_aid_effort_gathers_pace/html/1.stm
atb
steve
[Edited on 3/9/05 by steve_gus]
http://www.locostbuilder.co.uk
Just knock off the 's'!
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steve_gus
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| posted on 4/9/05 at 11:18 AM |
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excerpt from
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4212526.stm
"Women cannot go to the bathroom without men. They are raping them and slitting their throats," she said.
A National Guard soldier described a similar incident. "We found a young girl raped and killed in the bathroom [at the arena]," he
said.
"Then the crowd got the man and they beat him to death."
I like the states - ive been there about 15 times. Its a big place. There must be somethign very wrong with parts of it if this happens.
I dont remember any such things being reported after the tsunami disaster, or such things happening in WW2 in London under conditions of war and
rationing.....
atb
steve
[Edited on 4/9/05 by steve_gus]
http://www.locostbuilder.co.uk
Just knock off the 's'!
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JoelP
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| posted on 4/9/05 at 02:05 PM |
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there was looting during the blitz, but it wasnt given much media coverage because it would've sapped morale.
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Cita
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| posted on 4/9/05 at 02:50 PM |
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I think very few of us here in Europe have any idea about the magnitude of this disaster.
I'm sure the US gov. probably have not reacted alert enough or with correct means but this probably is well recognized by the victims and the
rest of the American people.so I dont think the first thing they need is criticism from Europe or the rest of the world.
I wonder if any nation would be prepared to take a disaster like this.
I did not hear any criticism about failing gov. after the Tsunami so why start it now,because it's the US?
Those people need help and that's all that matters,leave the political bla bla untill all suffering is gone.
Cita
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zilspeed
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| posted on 4/9/05 at 08:29 PM |
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I second your view Cita.
My only observatio right now is that we can all learn something from this. The society we depend upon and think of as being rock solid is in
fact very fragile indeed. That's been demonstrated in recent days and it could easily happen over here as well. Push people hard enough and
watch the results.
The very best of luck to all involved in whatever way.
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steve_gus
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| posted on 4/9/05 at 11:46 PM |
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Cita, I think the American people know the failings. We are just commenting on them from the outside.
Isnt it appropriate to comment that there is something very wrong in a society if a young girl cannot visit the toilet without being raped and having
her throat cut. That aid workers in helecopters are shot at. That snipers roam roofs of buildings shooting at people. That its reported the police
have had to shoot gangs who attack them?
atb
steve
http://www.locostbuilder.co.uk
Just knock off the 's'!
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Cita
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| posted on 5/9/05 at 09:08 AM |
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I should say it is a good thing to give comment Steve but I cannot relief myself of the feeling that a lot of those comments have some hidden pleasure
in that,finally,the good old US of A have failed on their own soil.
99.99% of the world population agrees that raping a young girl and cutting her throath is beyond any imagination as are aid workers being shot at.
I dont think that we should have such a big mouth cause if such a disaster would occur here in Europe the outcome would not differ very much of what
we see today in the US.
Perhaps not of the same magnitude but you would be surprised what people can turn into in a very short period of time if the "right"
conditions are created,in the US-England-Belgium wherever.
I understand that some of our US friends on this forum have no message at all on those negative comments,after all,these comments are not helping
anybody isn't it?
If you feel relief by giving comment on the negative outburst of this disaster than please do so but this wont change much of the terrible situation
where thousands of US citizens are in right now.
As i said before,the world should concentrate on helping the hurricane victims and not on political games,it's the wrong moment for this.
Cita
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NS Dev
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| posted on 5/9/05 at 09:47 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by sgraber
The response by the govt. has been underwhelming. Only today, 6 dys later has there been the type of response that should have occured on days 2-3.
The American public, myself included, are mad as hell about it. There will be hell to pay at election time. and hopefully before then. The disaster
relief effort has been woefully inadequate. But maybe if I can interject some perspective on the situation. None of us. NONE OF US! Can comprehend the
scale and breadth of this situation. The entire gulf coast for hundreds of miles and for several miles inland was completely obliterated. The
destruction continues inland at a lesser scale for dozens, if not hundreds more miles. This was a developed area with population and infrastructure
and personal property in the millions. Picture the ENTIRE southern half of England being wiped out...
Jasper, your comments are the most asinine and abhorent I have ever had to read! KARMA!? BLACKS!? GLOBAL WARMING?! You sir, are a disgrace to rational
human thought.
If you want to talk about Americans being wasteful that is fine, I don't take issue with that. As a whole, the USA is wasteful... And that is
something that many of us take issue with. I recycle, drive a gas sipping car, live close to my work, and so do a lot of Americans. Many others are
wasteful. But what the F-ing hell does that have to do with people dying in a G-damn hurricane disaster the likes have never been seen before!? And
you can claim that the rescue response was slow because they are BLACK people!? When was the last time we had a disaster like this? Are you able to
make a direct comparison to any other event in modern history? If not, then how can you make such an abhorrent and hateful statement?
Go ahead, all of you other loony's hop on the bandwagon. And don't stop there! Blame the USA for everything else while you're at
it. I am sick and tired of listening to such pathetic drivel. While you're at it- I am sure that you will tell me that the last ice age, some
millions of years ago was caused by those wasteful "American" dinosaurs. Shut UP already!
What I find most pathetic is that you take advantage of the most devastating of situations, the time when we are weakest and most in need of your
support and understanding, to find all that is wrong with our admitedly flawed yet great country.
You should be ashamed of yourselves.
Steve Graber
Have to say I agree.
I am something of a US "basher", but some of the comments have shocked me.
At some point we are all likely to face a terribly adverse situation, and it is never nice when the tables are turned.
No doubt many things "could have been done better" but isn't that always the way. Now's not the time for talking about that,
it's the time to do something about it.
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spunky
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| posted on 5/9/05 at 10:08 AM |
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I was on holiday last week and turned the TV on to see how Louisianna had faired. I was staggered at the devastation, and have spent much of week
hopping between the 24h news channels.
During the initial aftermath I was not fully aware of the scale of it and neither was anyone else, including any of the federal or state officials. It
took some time before the breach of the levvies was identified as the cause of the massive flooding.
The Bush administration is coming under huge criticism for it's slow responce. I believe this is unfair, us living in little Britain can not
possibly comprehend the scale of this disaster and the logistics involved in co-ordinating an evacuation and relief effort. That, coupled with the
24-36 hours it took before the enormity of the situation was realised. I believe once true scale was realised they have performed admirably.
Consider this, the actual area of the 'disaster zone' is greater than the entire british isles, and, as Steve has said the
'epicenter' the entire south coast and inland 100 miles completely flattened and flooded!
I doubt any of us have ever been without food or water for more than a few hours, try and magine you and your family deprived of this for a few
days.
The general lawlessness is shocking but not wholly surprising, these poor people are finding themselves in a life/death situation and it would rapidly
return to primievel mindset where it becomes survival of the fittest. Remember they believe they have been abandoned.
The reports of rape, murder and the like are obscene but again consider that every community has a sprinkling of thieves, sociopaths, psycopaths,
rapists, murderers, peodophiles etc. Take that entire community and cram it into a stadium with no food, water or power.
As for the US and the Kyoto agreement, I admire a leader who considers the implications of entering an agreement that will restrict his own economic
growth or generally restrict the way the country can operate and then refusing to sign up.
If only Blair had done the same, and heeded the warnings, before signing the Criminals Rights Charter....oops.... I mean the Human Rights Act.
There are questions that need answering regarding the funding cuts for the levvy maintenance and it will be Bush that is taken to the gallows over it
but I really believe Bush is an honest man who is frequntly ill advised. Sure he often comes over as a bumbling buffoon but I dont think he would
knowingly lie or do anything that would damage the country. More than can be said about Tony.
Anyway, sorry about the long post but have watched in shock at the events in and around the gulf of mexico and wanted to vocalise.
My thoughts are with all involved.
John
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steve_gus
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| posted on 5/9/05 at 07:55 PM |
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We can only make our minds up here on what we see in the media.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4214746.stm
I am not a yank basher - i am commenting on what we are being told.
One thing I have noticed is that there doesnt seem to be any 'flesh on the bones' backup regarding the rape/murders and the like, so
perhaps the jury is out on that one.
I think the thing to note is that its the AMERICAN PEOPLE who are pointing out how slow the federal govt has been to act. Its not me. Im just echoing
what i read as im 3,000 miles away.
If (cita) people dont bitch about it (not that what i say means anything) there would be no pressure on bush and co to truly get their fingers out.
It was reported today on BBC radio five live - a trusted news source, that bush was speaking to a white senator on the lawn of the senators property,
which was destroyed. He said to the senator that they would rebuild his house, and he (bush) would come back and sit with him on his front porch.
I would think that this is of great comfort to the normal guy, stuck on his roof, with no food, no medical supplies , no nothing in fact.
It was reported that Bush is on a pretty sticky wicket, but no out yet.
Ive not said 'stupid damn yanks' - in fact see my defence on the 'stupid yanks' fuel thread - im reporting what is coming to
me via the media. I dont think I added anything....
There seems to be 2 or 3 states that are affected. Its mentioned that there are 1-2m people involved. That leaves 45 other mainland states, 280m other
americans, and the strongest, biggest nation on earth. And its reported that it took 4 days to even understand the situation.
What happended to spy satellites that can see an eye of a needle in space - didn no one bother to look in those 4 days at what was happening?
Perhaps one day we will see stories of heroic efforts, of the emergency services leaping into action, of grateful people telling their stories of
rescue. People will tell of how they and their fellow men got together and helped each other. Community spirit.
The news here is that the 40 or so foreigners in the stadium were told by the army in the bowl to keep and stay together. They then sneaked the
foreingers out one by one for their own safety from the americans present. I dont understand why that should be.
Ive been to the states 15+ times. My experience is that Americans are much more freindly and outgoing than (in general) the english are.
I dont recognise America from whats been reported over here. Perhaps then only bad news is newsworthy?
quote from mr bush
"The response of this country has been amazing," he said at a prayer centre for survivors, and promised the US would "do what it
takes" to help people get back on their feet.
atb
steve
[Edited on 5/9/05 by steve_gus]
http://www.locostbuilder.co.uk
Just knock off the 's'!
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Cita
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| posted on 6/9/05 at 08:16 PM |
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I'm convinced Steve that those spy satelites and the people watching those images new exactly what was going on minute by minute but I guess it
must have been something like the Germans experienced during D-Day.Unbelieve!
The disaster must have been so overwhelming that there simply was no answer as to where to start the rescue,let alone know how.
I believe that the US is probably the only nation in the world that can deal with this kind of disaster.
I dont think most people realize the logistic involved in a rescue operation of the size.
I dont know the exact figures but how many people where in the Dome at one moment?25.000?
Have you have any idea how many thousands of galons of fresh water you need for one day to give all those people the basic needs? Half a gallon a day
for one person for drinking and use of the toilet would mean 12500 gallons a day!!!
How many rolls of toilet paper are needed for 25.000 people or how many gallons of milk for the baby's?
Giving those people 2 meals a day would mean 50.000 meals every day!
With almost every road destroyed and no proper communication this is simply impossible.
Those 25.000 are just a fraction of the many thousands of victims and probably from a point of logistic,in the best situation,located in a limited
area and realatively protected.
How many weeks of preparation is needed under perfect conditions to give those 25.000 people a decent stay in a place like the Dome for 3 or 4
days?
Would you believe that 2 weeks is the minimum?
I dont agree Steve with the trend of the last decenia that only bad news is newsworthy.
In this context it's misplaced in my opinion and serves no purpose at all,and if you think that Mr. Bush is concerned for one moment about the
BBC or the Belgian VRT news for that matter at this moment than I'm afraid you are wrong.
I'm convinced that his main objective for the moment is to help those people.
No more,no less.
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The Shootist
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| posted on 6/9/05 at 08:51 PM |
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Posse Comitatus......
A law from the 19th century forbids intervention of the federal military in civilian affairs unless the state request's such aid.
The Mayor of NO did not order an evacuation until the day before the storm. The city of NO and the State of Louisiana have plans filed with FEMA
(Federal Emergency Management Agency) that say they will assist the poor and infirm in an evacuation. This was never done, and appearantly the state
had not read their own plan.
2,000 school buses are under water in NO, they were never used. The poor were sent to the super dome, yet not asked to bring supplies.
The city only sent a dozen or so police to the convention center to keep the peace with thousands of people.
The state did not send any satelite phones to NO, when the levies broke the phones were out and no one knew the situation, not even the people in
NO.
The people being rescued had no idea the size of the rescue effort going on because they had NO communications.
Meanwhile the opposing party here rants about the response of the feds, when the two leaders most responsible (Mayor and Governor) are members of that
very party.
We are getting refugees here hundreeds of miles away, and a local radio station raised $140,000 and 14,000 cases of water which a trucking company
donated trucks to haul to NO.
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Rorty
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| posted on 7/9/05 at 02:19 AM |
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I believe the US have more than enough technology to have known the exact state of affairs. FFS they had satelite photos of the storms movements
before it hit land. They're very quick to obtain spy photos of so-called weapons of mass destruction factories and bunkers.
I also believe if the same catastrophe had happened in Washington, New Hampshire or Virgina etc that it would virtually be mopped up by now. I just
don't understand why it took so long to react to the apalling events in those southern states.
Perhaps this report says it all?
 
Rescued attachment NewOrleans.jpg
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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spunky
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| posted on 7/9/05 at 06:31 AM |
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Interesting pictures Rorty, and if they are genuine just an example of very poor journalism.
If the hurricane had happened in New Hampshire, Virginia and any other state with an affluent population there would not have been tens of thousands
of souls left to drown and die of thirst because they would all have evacuated.
The reason this has become such a huge humanitarian disaster rather than simply a devastating hurricane is because about 15% of the population of NO
live below the poverty line and had no means of escape.........Why was that?
The Shootist has confirmed something I was very sceptical about as I overdosed on the media coverage of Katrina.
While at first hearing the Mayor's rantings came across as an impassioned plea for help from his country but the words of Will Shakespeare came
to mind..... "me thinks he protesteth too much"
IIRC when the storms hit Florida last year the citizens were given 3 days notice to evacuate. NO was given 1 day, even if the Mayor and governors had
had the foresight to scramble all available public transport, they had still left it too late. So who is really to blame for the human cost of
Katrina?
I'm by no means an expert on the US political system but I understand that it very departmentalised with Federal and State divisions which make
launching a co-ordinated relief effort all the more difficult.
Once the military were given the go ahead and entered New Orleans they evacuated 30,000 people in 3 days BY HELICOPTER... that is an incredible
achievement. I dont believe any other nation could manage that.
Once again, my thoughts are with them.
John
The reckless man may not live as long......
But the cautious man does not live at all.....
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sgraber
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| posted on 7/9/05 at 08:00 PM |
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A photographic chronology of the storm and it's aftermath. Nicely presented in slideshow format.
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/840e01fc-18ad-11da-8fe9-00000e2511c8.html
FYI - I read that the devastated area was the size of the entire island of Great Britain.... The human brain simply can't comprehend the scale.
Steve Graber
http://www.grabercars.com/
"Quickness through lightness"
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steve_gus
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| posted on 7/9/05 at 08:04 PM |
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its been stated that the person in charge of the emergency effort was previously in charge of the arabian horse association.
One other interesting thing about the usa political system is that Bush can feck up all he likes. He cant be elected a 3rd time, so he has nothing to
'go the extra mile' for.
So, if a an atom bomb dropped on an american city, no one would bother to come to aid until the right people picked up a phone? Its very illustrative
- just imagine - if a really bad hurricane can do this, then the results of a nuke would be many times greater in magnitude in what it would take to
sort things out.
atb
steve
[Edited on 7/9/05 by steve_gus]
http://www.locostbuilder.co.uk
Just knock off the 's'!
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Rorty
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| posted on 7/9/05 at 09:30 PM |
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Lotos of photos here too.
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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spunky
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| posted on 7/9/05 at 09:32 PM |
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not that its relevant, but there is no nuke that can decimate an area of 150,000 sq miles.
Interesting statistic.....
A cat 4 hurricane unleashes more energy than this world has ever produced in all its power stations.
Staggering 
John
The reckless man may not live as long......
But the cautious man does not live at all.....
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the JoKeR
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| posted on 8/9/05 at 12:00 AM |
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In the event of a disaster in my state, I expect my state government to direct local and state emergency and military responses. They should lead by
example - no crying on TV and no finger pointing (until the situation is well under control, at least). Emergency plans are created for a reason, and
those plans are for the local government to follow. If they find themselves in over their heads as they were in this case, they should pass power up
the ladder. In this case the federal government probably should have siezed power earlier, as the local government appears to have buried their heads
in the sand early on. It is my understanding that President Bush told the Louisiana Governor that she should have the NO Mayor vacate the city prior
to the hurricane hitting land. Those who were able to and smart enough to do so did.
I'm not happy with the federal response to the hurricane, but I think the biggest problems came from the actions of the local authorities.
__________________________
Jeff
http://www.midwestwelding.com
http://www.locostusa.com/forums/
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steve_gus
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| posted on 8/9/05 at 03:51 PM |
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I think perhaps thats one of the things thats different in the USA.
In a much smaller scale, the UK has counties which have local govt, but the whole show is run by one central govt.
In the states it looks like each state is more of a 'country' with its own rules and stronger govt.
It also looks from my perspective that Americans are not fond of federal govt control. I find that a bit strange as at the end of the day, its all
america, and the head of USA - the president, voted by the people, surely calls the shots.
So, if you have a major disaster, it seems to me that it would be natural for the federal state to act, and not wait for state govt to ask for
help.
Its obviously not that way.
atb
steve
[Edited on 8/9/05 by steve_gus]
http://www.locostbuilder.co.uk
Just knock off the 's'!
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the JoKeR
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| posted on 9/9/05 at 12:09 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by steve_gus
In the states it looks like each state is more of a 'country' with its own rules and stronger govt.
It also looks from my perspective that Americans are not fond of federal govt control. I find that a bit strange as at the end of the day, its all
america, and the head of USA - the president, voted by the people, surely calls the shots.
So, if you have a major disaster, it seems to me that it would be natural for the federal state to act, and not wait for state govt to ask for
help.
I'll admit to being a little "fuzzy" on the exact details, but that's not far from accurate. Considering how large the US is,
and how diverse it is, getting one central government to keep everybody happy would be impossible. It's pretty much all about finding a
middle-ground that we can all be somewhat content with. With the size of the country, I think it makes more sense for each local government to know
how best to respond. I guess another way to look at it is by looking back to 9-11. With the attacks in New York and DC, if something were to also
happen in Las Vegas, they would be in better shape to focus on what to do, where to call for additional resources, etc.
There are federal laws which pertain to everybody and then each state has it's own set of additional laws. Wisconsin, as an example just
lowered the blood-alcohol level which determines being legally drunk from .1% to .08%. It was changed due to pressure from the federal level. The
Feds could withhold road funding, etc to "pursuade" the state government to make the change. The state didn't have to do it, as
it's not the Federal Govt's place to make or inforce that law.
Back to the President's place in all this, I don't think he's got as much power as people like to assume. Over the past decade,
it's almost gotten to the point where it seems like a huge joke. In the case of the hurricane and flood, ANY action by Bush would have been
criticized by the opposition. If he goes to New Orleans early after the destruction, they complain that he's grand-standing and diverting
resources which could better be used elsewhere. If he waits until later (as he did this time) he's accused of not caring about poor blacks.
Heck, if Bush were to walk on water right now, the Democrats would claim he couldn't swim.
Hopefully that all makes sense. My allergies are killing me, I'm tired, and the kids are bugging me.
__________________________
Jeff
http://www.midwestwelding.com
http://www.locostusa.com/forums/
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