Rorty
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| posted on 30/1/05 at 12:00 PM |
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But Noodle, even if this country (what am I saying! I'm in Australia, but I mean England) reforms, there's still the rest of the world.
It's unlikely they'll all just fall into line because we (you) do.
I've been thinking about this topic all day (thanks Hellfire  ) and it's more than just a PC problem. The real problem has been hinted
at; it's civil rights. people, especially the younger generation have come to expect civil rights far and beyond their rights IMHO. It will
inevitably lead to anarchy and possibly Noodle's revolution. There are too many Kings, all wanting everything on a silver platter with no
responsibilities. The rabble need to be governed by ONE King (though I suppose a strong elected government would do). The foot needs to be well and
truly put down. People will have to be told no. No more of your crap. You don't deserve paid holidays. You don't deserve free this. You
don't deserve free that. And no, you can't sue The Man. And you will sit down, shut up and show me some respect. Your rights have been
curbed for the good of mankind.
Bloody hippies (Metal or otherwise  ) and their free love and "be cool" attitude of the sixties kicked off theis current revolution. As
you say, things will go full circle again. The sooner the better.
Bring back the 15th - 17th centuries when ale house wenches in flimsy low-slung tops who relished a good slap on the behind. And the old one-eyed man
in the corner would clout a youngster mightly with his hewn crutch for trying to steal a morsel of bread from his lead-rich pewter plate! 
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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marcyboy
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| posted on 30/1/05 at 12:49 PM |
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well i think the shame on the family name would work in small communities,
the ghurka's based near aldershot were always very well behaved because of humilliation and shame back home in nepal...
and that's quite a few miles away ...but maybe theres more to it than that.
also wern't they the best behaved but worst payed regiment we had!,
and doesn't northern ireland have the lowest crime rate in northern europe...
punishment beatens do work...lol,
[Edited on 30/1/05 by marcyboy]
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Hellfire
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| posted on 30/1/05 at 01:30 PM |
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I've recently been speaking to an Accounts Manager of an out of town Comprehensive School. She reliably informs me that the reason for
non-exclusion is quite simple. Each pupil or student is worth a sum of money - year 7 £1400/annum upto £2000/annum for a year 11. If you exclude a
year 7 the fund is cut by in excess of £3000/annum. Therefore, there is absolutely no incentive to exclude the insubordinate pupil or student because
the funding you get will be cut unproportionally.
She recently confessed to one of her pupils being excluded permanently for 'stabbing' a fellow pupil with a 6" bladed flick knife in
school and for no apparent reason other than his typically disruptive behaviour pattern. Unless petty violent behaviour is vigourously, curtailed this
sort of 'incident' is and will become more prevalent.
I wondered who was going to mention capital punishment first... maybe another poll on that subject would be interesting too.
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stephen_gusterson
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| posted on 30/1/05 at 11:44 PM |
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I think that some of the posts are not for 'naughtyness' - stabbing someone or violence to a teacher is a crime and should be dealt with
by the state in legal process.
the problem with corporal punishment in schools is that the justice is crap.
there was more than one time that i got accused of summat that i hadnt done in school, but the teachers word was unmoveable. so, you woulda got
whacked if it called for it just on a teachers suspicions or say so.
this is the 21st century. Would you like your kids physically abused by a teacher? A teacher is someone with 4 years training and a degree - it doesnt
make em judge and jury. If any teacher had disciplined my kids with violence, i would likely be typing this from prison, after a little altercation
with a baseball bat.
There are better ways of dealing with problem kids than some teacher dealing out instant justice. You cant assault adults, so why can you assault a
kid?
i remember being dangled by my ear by a teacher when I was eight. Any teacher doing that now would rightly do time.
atb
steve
[Edited on 30/1/05 by stephen_gusterson]
[Edited on 31/1/05 by stephen_gusterson]
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stephen_gusterson
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| posted on 30/1/05 at 11:57 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DavidM
Ban the bloody school run, make them walk. It'll be good for their health.
Let parents smack kids. I did, but I didn't have to do it very often as a stearn word usually sufficed.
David
two points here david.
i have the right to drive where i like when i like how i like. if i chose to drive my kids to school, especially as one of mine went to school in the
next town, 8 miles away, i will do that. how the frig does that have anything to do with anything?
my wife is doing a degree in childcare. There is a theory that allowing any smacking or violence to kids is wrong as there is no clear limit to whats
right or wrong - how hard is a smak before it becomes a violent blow, before it becomes a life threatening injury?
we are likely reasonable people on here. but there are people out there that come home after a drink or two and whack the kids, for instance. If you
have a situation where its out of order to physically strike a child, then its clear that any level of violence is wrong.
four childeren a week die in this country because of abuse by someone they know. thats suprising isnt it? thats two pairs of holly and jessicas a
week. It likely starts with a violent family member that gests worse and worse till the point where voilence becomes deadly.
some might see this as 'pc' or liberal, but 200 more kids would have seen xmas last year than did. At that rate 14 or so kids have already
died at the hands of violent parents / partners / relatives so far this year.
If people knew that violence of any kind to a child was wrong, that could be no shaken baby syndrome, cos any shake would be too hard.
ive hit my kids. i remeber the last time. it was cos my son spilt coke all over the seats of my car. i felt really bad afterwards, cos i hit him in
anger, not in a well balanced sense of what was right and wrong. it was done in a motorway service station. if the law was no hitting kids, there
would have been no way i woulda done it. in fact, after that, i never did again.
atb
steve
[Edited on 31/1/05 by stephen_gusterson]
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Rorty
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| posted on 30/1/05 at 11:58 PM |
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When I was at school, punishment wasn't just meted out in a spontaneous fit of rage by some immature teacher.
You were made to sweat over your punishment for up to 24 hours, which was almost worse than the actual punishment, if any.
You were reported to the headmaster who would then announce to the ensemble the following morning at the end of assembly that he wanted to see you in
his study. You were publicly humiliated and booed at for a start, then you would be kept waiting outside the head's study for anything up to an
hour. Every time the hall door opened, your heart missed a beat or two. When the head finally arrived, you were a physical and mental wreck.
The head would then proceed with the evidence gathered from the teacher concerned and any pupil witnesses. Then in a cool and enlightened manner, he
would administer Six Of The Best (if that's what the offence warranted).
Being sent to the head's study was a tremendous ordeal. If my kids were punished in that fashion, I would be quite all right with it, but I
wouldn't want some repressed, sheltered teacher dangling my kids by the ear. A slap is OK and requires some thought to place it where it hurts
without causing physical harm.
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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stephen_gusterson
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| posted on 31/1/05 at 12:05 AM |
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the ear dangler was actually quite a nice teacher normally. but ear dangling was his trade mark.
my offence was it was april 1st, and i tried to pin a note to him. nuts. dunno why i did it! but i dont think it needed ear dangling.
the punishment similar to your 'waiting' one was that we were made to stand outside the headmistreses window - the fear was she would come
out and see you. this was what the playground minders would do to reprimand you. that school had kids no older than 7 in it.
atb
steve
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marcyboy
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| posted on 31/1/05 at 02:23 AM |
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as for the votes i would like to delve into what areas people fall in...
is it a class thing or a political thing or a sexuality thing...
maybe we could have a multi pole... but those of you who swing that way don't get excited
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andkilde
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| posted on 31/1/05 at 01:35 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by marcyboy
as for the votes i would like to delve into what areas people fall in...
is it a class thing or a political thing or a sexuality thing...
maybe we could have a multi pole... but those of you who swing that way don't get excited
You'll probably find that we fall into the people who can "close their eyes to vividly recall being beaten to a pulp by angry sadistic
bastards" versus those who've been "tapped on the backside by caring parents".
I understand there's a difference -- I have little faith in other humans to differentiate.
YMMV
Cheers, Ted
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 31/1/05 at 02:24 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by stephen_gusterson
four childeren a week die in this country because of abuse by someone they know. thats suprising isnt it?
I wonder many people are seriously injured or killed by out of control yobs who have had zero or ineffective discipline both at home and at school?
I had the plimsole, blackboard rubber and the ear dangle from various teachers at school, and I simply did not misbehave at home as I knew the
consequences. Despite suffering this allegedly psychological trauma I managed to grow up into a non-volient, responsible person without any
repressed feelings of resentment or any of that other rubbish. As did my brother and sister and school friends. For that I thank my parents and
school teachers, for whom I have nothing but respect.
Society is simpy falling apart at the seams due to the actions of the liberal do-gooders and I have no doubt that things will eventualy go full circle
as suggested.
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Noodle
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| posted on 31/1/05 at 02:47 PM |
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It's where evolution fails. The less successful parents often breed like I-don't-know-what-because-I-don't-want-to-write-rabbits.
Maybe they are the true inheritors of the earth, survival of the fitest and all that, and those of us who feel reasonably well balanced should
understand that our balance is just a skewed perspective on our physical existance. i.e. we're wrong and the big bloke pulling the strings from
in the clouds has got shares in Burbury and JJB Sports.
Well, it might be true.
Neil.
Your sort make me sick
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marcyboy
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| posted on 31/1/05 at 03:16 PM |
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things might one day go full circle...
until the final straw breaks the camels back, but this is true for more issues not just corporal punishment...
or am i opening another can of worms
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stephen_gusterson
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| posted on 31/1/05 at 08:01 PM |
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Mikerj
how many violent offenders are in prison, having been beat up by their fathers or whatever as a kid..... it can breed violence rather than cure it.
this all sounds like moany old git stuff, but i recon the breakdown of 'the family' has more to do with kids having problems at school and
self control, etc. I know several kids that dont have a father cos the mother thought it would be cool to have a kid in her teens, unmarried.
so, we suppose that whacking a wayward kid makes all the difference, and doesnt end up him accepting a culture of violence and 'spreading the
love' to others...
are not school bullies supposedly often those that themselves have problems somehow at home or in their lives?
lets not get to the bottom of that, lets just give em a good old thrashing, and their 15 year old mom a council flat.
atb
steve
[Edited on 31/1/05 by stephen_gusterson]
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JoelP
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| posted on 31/1/05 at 08:26 PM |
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i love steves arguments...!
i know one kid who was bullied at school (for being the milky bar kid on telly commercials), now he's a violent dealer with a long criminal
history. Thats just one example of violence breeding more violence. Thats the main reason why ive (mostly) stopped swearing at people
(like kids who stick fingers up) and such stuff, cos it only set a bad example.
the bottom line with this debate is that if parents were consistantly good (or even mediocre) then discipline at school wouldnt be an issue. Im a firm
believer in tackling stuff at the root of the problem, so i would leave CP out and sterilize all chavs... 
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marcyboy
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| posted on 1/2/05 at 01:18 AM |
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lol
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chunkielad
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| posted on 1/2/05 at 02:04 AM |
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In the 20's, you never gave anyone grief as you'd get a clip round the ear. You'd be poo scared of the police and had to join the
forces or do a hard days work down the mine or something to get through the bills. Crime rate - VERY SMALL.
In the 40's and 50's pretty much the same.
60's and 70's we all smoke weed and allow our kids the freedom to feel love and experiment - crime rate rockets and people EXPECT to be
given understanding when they quite obviously did a ridiculously stupid crime.
90's no children can be punished, the forces don't take you if you weren't good enough at school. The police are laughed at and
teachers get no respect - crime rate RIDICULOUS!!!
My kids get love. My kinds respect me. My kids were smacked (not hit) when they were younger. They are well behaved and rarely get into trouble and
never with the authorities.
My father BEAT me and I mean BEAT!!! I turned out OK but with issues I'd rather not dicuss.
It seems obvious to me that it lies firstly at home - DISCIPLINE IS ESSENTIAL IN THE HOME. A smack is fine if necessary but as children get older,
this should get less frequent as they start to understand the consequences you have taught them early on. Secondly, Society sucks and the government
and european knobheads have ruined any chance of sorting it by being caring and PC. It's all bollox!!! Bring back national service (crime rates
rocketed 5 or so years after this was stopped) and get them slapped around behind the bike sheds when they mess about in school.
There's kids round here who batter your car and when you confront them, they tell you to bleep off and leave them alone!!! I have slapped a few
and guess what - they haven't come back!!! One's Dad did and he got told where to go. He told the police and the officer was luckily a
decent chap and said 'I wish he'd have got a slap when he was younger and then he wouldn't have a rap sheet as long as he
has'!!!
I counter pressed and he said that the system would rip me to pieces for protecting my own property!!! I have recieved nothing for the damage caused
but it cost be £250 to put right!!!
Discipline is fine when used and not abused.
Some people in this discussion assume that physical punishment is abuse - what a left wing poncey attitude!!! Abuse is punchin a child in the head.
Physical punishment is a cane on the palms or a slap on the legs. AND IT WORKS!!!
I'm only 28 BTW so it's not as if I am biased because I went through the cane or anything - it's just common sense when you look at
the figures.
Rant over, give me a drink!!!
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niceperson709
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| posted on 1/2/05 at 02:57 AM |
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Hi Folks
Give up moaning about it in reality all we can do is to try to do a good job of raising our own children , be consistant , fair and teach them to
survive . I live in the country and my daughter goes to a very small school and it has no dicipline problems to speak of so may be it is the crowded
comunities that is a contributing factor here but like the justice system coperal punishment for children has its place but it needs to be measured in
its aplication and never threatened if there is no follow through .Oh and don't think that once they start school that your role as a parent and
role model ceases , You have to be their most important teacher .
Now can we all go back to car chat? this thread is catching up with talk of snobbery by owners of other types of cars and we are begining to go around
in circles
Best wishes
Iain
Best wishes IAIN
life is not the rehearsal , it's the show so don't sit there thinking about it DO IT NOW
http://iainseven.wordpress.com/
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marcyboy
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| posted on 1/2/05 at 11:28 AM |
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well said chunkie lad...
i can see your not a probation officer... lol(what an unsatisfying job that must be eh).
heres another reason to discipline your kids, have your say on ntlworld homepage...
everyday you can vote on something very apt...
Have Your Say
Should parents be taken to court if their children continually misbehave in school?
Yes, they are responsible for their behaviour (79%)
No, kids will be kids (15%)
I don't know (6%)
Current votes: 1035
[Edited on 1/2/05 by marcyboy]
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Hellfire
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| posted on 1/2/05 at 12:29 PM |
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Nice one - link here
CLICKY
Vote near the bottom of the page!
Have fun!
[Edited on 1-2-05 by Hellfire]
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 1/2/05 at 02:30 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by stephen_gusterson
Mikerj
how many violent offenders are in prison, having been beat up by their fathers or whatever as a kid..... it can breed violence rather than cure it.
this all sounds like moany old git stuff, but i recon the breakdown of 'the family' has more to do with kids having problems at school and
self control, etc. I know several kids that dont have a father cos the mother thought it would be cool to have a kid in her teens, unmarried.
so, we suppose that whacking a wayward kid makes all the difference, and doesnt end up him accepting a culture of violence and 'spreading the
love' to others...
are not school bullies supposedly often those that themselves have problems somehow at home or in their lives?
lets not get to the bottom of that, lets just give em a good old thrashing, and their 15 year old mom a council flat.
Steve,
I'm certainly not suggesting that discipline begins and ends with physical punishment, and neither am I suggesting beating people within an inch
of their lives. A smack on the leg etc. is a short sharp shock that makes kid re-appraise their behaviour (it did me anyway, maybe I'm in a
minority?).
Few things irk me off more than some chav slapper in the supermarket screaming at her kids whilst belting them around the head. That is certainly not
effective discipline. People like that simply don't care what their kids do when they are out of their sight, but when they continue their
misbehaviour at home they get beaten. Sending mixed messages like this isn't going to instill a sense of discipline in anyone.
Personaly I think it would be wonderfull if children could grow up to become disciplined and responsible adults with out a smack ever being used, but
it seem to me that the success for this method is lacking (going by the behaviour of the children of some anti-smacking parents I know).
Children are like rusty nuts. You can cajol and persuade them with WD40 and a pair of mole grips, but sometimes the cold chisel has to make
it's presence felt. Hmm, not sure that reads quite right..
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flak monkey
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| posted on 1/2/05 at 03:13 PM |
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I agree with Mike. Discipline, if doled out correctly works well. But your kids have to respect the person doing the punishment or it wont work (eg
the chav slapper).
I was slapped as a kid, only if i was repeatedly naughty though, and i received fair warning in all cases. You cant reason with young kids so physical
punishment is the only way. And i dont mean a smack round the head, something like a smack round the legs is enough.
Once kids are high school age they can be reasoned with. It does seem however the repeat offenders do not to understand this reasoning and have no
sense of moral decency sometimes (it comes from the parent/s but can also come from 'friends' (peer pressure) IMO). If someone can come up
with a way of punishing these kids that actually works it would be great as:
Suspension: the kids see it as a holiday and come back just as bad
Exclusion: costs more to exclude a kid than it does to keep them on. If you do exclude then the excluding school must find another school for that kid
to go (which is absolute boll*ks if you ask me).
So neither of those work.
Something like Nat Service maybe? Repeatedly naughty kids get sent to 'boot camp' schools where its basically like being in the army. For
a few weeks/months and see if that helps, it would certainly wear them down if done properly (anyone watch bad lads?).
Kids are worse behaved (in general) today than say 30yrs ago. This could be put down to many factors. But looking back at the stats you would probably
find that when CP was stopped in schools the 'incident' rate went up. Often the threat is enough to stop the would be trouble makers
having a go. Unfortunately the threat has gone, so theres no deterrant. People in general dont repect the authorities, for whatever reason that may
be. One reason may be there is never any good news shown on the tv, all the news you hear about the police force is bad or puts them in a bad light,
people see it and lose their respect. (just an example of news, there are 68,000 more nurses in the NHS now than in '97, but does that ever get
mention? No of course not, its more interesting when something goes wrong in the NHS because the current government is always crap regardless of what
they do to try and improve [sorry a bit off topic there!]).
Anyway bring back CP, even if just for the threat of action being taken.
Rant over,
David
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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jollygreengiant
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| posted on 1/2/05 at 07:24 PM |
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Ultimately if you bring back all punishments, (including capitol) then you have a big stick to hold over peoples heads. Those persistent offenders
will in time get locked away permanently. The big issue is that we DO NOT have the police force required to enforce the basic laws of the land and
those that we do have are too busy following political orders for statistac gains to do any good. If the chances were that you would get caught AND
you WOULD get a punishment then they WOULD think twice about the crimes. If there is a clear intent to ignore the LAWS then should that person have
the protection of the LAW.
Remember Capitol punishment cuts out repeat offences (generally).
Bring back the cane in schools I say.
The beliefs stated above are my beliefs and do not reflect upon any one else whom so ever. C. A. Taylor.
Enjoy.
Beware of the Goldfish in the tulip mines. The ONLY defence against them is smoking peanut butter sandwiches.
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Noodle
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| posted on 1/2/05 at 07:36 PM |
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I can't believe noone's gone for my electricity generating scheme.
Fitness, exercise, discipline and a valuable service all in one.
Everybody wins!
Neil.
Your sort make me sick
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marcyboy
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| posted on 1/2/05 at 07:56 PM |
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treadmills that if they slow down they get shocked themselves, or 2 fellas in a massive hamster wheel and put them in naked... put the straight one
in the front and yes!! the not so straight one in the rear area and i bet they will generate some electricity...one trying to get away and one trying
to get his way,
there is a down side...when they are finally released they will be able to run that much faster... the amount of muggings would be up,
and for the more adventurous blagger he might not use a get away driver but those massive thighs he built up whilst on the aforesaid treadmill
just a possibilty for producing electricity whilst doing porridge
[Edited on 1/2/05 by marcyboy]
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krlthms
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| posted on 2/2/05 at 12:39 AM |
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They bleep you up, your mom and dad,
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had,
And add some extra, just for you.
But they were fucked up in their turn,
By men in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were sloppy-stern,
And half at one another's throats.
Man hands misery to man,
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don't have any kids yourself.
Philip Larkin (1922-1985); RIP
KT
[Edited on 2/2/05 by krlthms]
[Edited on 2/2/05 by krlthms]
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