Hi All,

Not had the best night ever.

I was on my way home and received a frantic phone call from my wife.

She'd taken our dog round to my parents and on one of the several occasions he was running round the back garden he has gone through to next doors to my parents and they have let him in where he has killed the neighbours dog. I do not know which one attacked which, and not sure I will ever know the full answer, but they are not going to press any charges.

I do not want to have my dog put down, but I don't think my wife wants to keep him anymore in case something like this ever happens again. He has showed aggression to other dogs in the past at the field and so on, but he is rarely the one to start it, if ever.

I don't what this community could offer in the form of advice, but I am dead against having him put down, I'd take him into the wild and let him go before that happened. But was also wondering if there was someone on here, or if someone knew of someone that my dog could go to as a new owner.

I know this is an odd request given the circumstances, but do feel that my dog is good natured at heart, he has never been aggressive to anything other than a dog, but with us having a baby on the way, my wife feels that it isn't something she wants to take a risk on and I will do whatever she says in this regard...

Kind regards,
Steve

Ha he been castrated ?? this can remove the aggresive behaviour. Dog training may also be of use. Obviously with a baby or youngster you have to be carefull with any dog however placid it may be.

whats the breed? whatever you decide you need to take the responsible option as your dog has proved itself to be dangerous.

I've considered what I would do if a dog attacked mine, and it wouldnt require me pressing any charges.

I say this as a dog lover.

[Edited on 23/12/09 by cd.thomson]

Crikey Steve I really feel for you in the situation but can see the point your wife has if you have a baby on the way. As much as we love our animals, you would never forgive yourself if anything happened to your baby and as soon as you mentioned that point, then really there's not too much of a choice to make. Although the aggression has only been towards other dogs previously, you're about to bring a new member to your "pack".

Afraid I cant offer much advice other than to say i recon you should think about wether you'd prefer him to go to someone you know or a clean break (but just knowing he's gone to a good home).

Sorry but time for it to go I reckon

It's a tough one and I can understand why you will never have him put down (and IMHO that is a really last resport option for a genuinely very dangerous or sick dog only).

However, with having a baby on the way, you just can not take that risk at all.

As suggested, some training, implement some very strict rules and if not already done, castration. If that fails, rehoming is the only other option.

We had a dog before baby arrived. He was really, really soft (petrified of the cat), but our house was just too small for me, wife, baby, cat and energetic labrador. So, we searched for a new home and now he lives with a vet, who takes him out on rounds and when she's working in the surgery, the dog stays with her parents on a farm where he runs with working gun dogs. Other than keeping the dog, it's the next best thing to know that he's living a better life than I could ever realistacally have given him. We get periodic updates.

I still live in a mad house though, such is the way with babies....

ETA

You have to consider whether you can handle retraining a potentially aggressive dog whilst raising a baby - they're quite demanding little creatures and so far as I know, they only get worse for the first 2.5 years (and counting!)

[Edited on 23/12/09 by StevieB]

Thats bad news ive had dogs as long as i can remember, if they have killed then they can never be trusted! its not worth taking a chance with an agressive dog, it could be a child next, and im sure you wouldnt want that would you? ive kept working lurchers for years and once they tasted fresh blood they do change!!!

I had the same issue with my (old) dog, he had bitten me, and my partner was not happy with temperament towards people touching him, as he went for her on a couple of occasions.

We had a child on the way, and it was born, and the dog did not improve, and got to a point where i was a bit scared of touching him myself. It might of been the stress to a child coming into the house, but we had 2 other dogs and they were ok with the new arrival.

It got to the point of our daughter crawling, and I could not imagine what I would do if the dog harmed our daughter.

Due to his aggressive behaviour in the past I looked to re-home him. I even spoke to the breeder where i got him, and she was willing to lie about his past, but i wasn't.

So i had the very hard decision to have him put down (the hardest ever) I do not ever want to go through it again. Still hurts me to this day.

My thought process was i did not want him to hurt my daughter, as scars last forever, and I would never forgive myself, and if i had of re-homed him I would again not want him to harm anyone else, unless he was in my care, as the stress of that might of made him worse.

I had taken my dogs to training lessons, had the snip and my partner is a vet.

We both agreed if any of our animals showed any aggressive behaviour towards our 2 children now that they had to go; as much as you love them family comes first.

well said that man

Oh crap Pants.....

ML

Below are the only pics I have of him on this site.

We are his THIRD owners and so even though he will obey my commands, he isn't very good with my wife and parents don't tell him the same way I do. Having said that, he has (in my presence) been aggresive to other dogs But only when provoked first.

As his third owners he could potentially have been up to all sorts before we got him, and that is a problem weve always worried about. Even though he does do what I say when it is a command, if I just tell him stuff he does seem to do it at the second or third attempt.

He is a cross between a long legged jack russel and staff bull terrier, so two of the more aggressive dogs, out there, but soft as muck with everyone that comes into contact with him.

I named him Rowdy because of the dog from the Scrubs TV program, and everyone always comments on the fact that he's the least rowdy dog they've ever met.

I am not in argument with whether we should keep him with a baby around, I do believe that if this hadn't happened then I would of cotrolled him very well with a baby around. (we have had babies round, and apart from smelling and being inquisitive, he's not that bothered)

Please keep suggestions coming, I want to get this problem resolved, but I am not willing to have him put down.


One of the biggest reasons for that is, the fact that for all I know, even though he's been let into their house, the other dog may well have attacked him. Despite my comments on his earlier behaviour.

He has been castrated before we took him in, and is around 4 - 5 years old...



gorgeous and gorgeous


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avatar

You can't risk it with a baby, and you can't just pass the chance it may happen onto someone else, it has to be putdown IMO, sorry.

Can he be taken back to a Dog's home Pants?

Just seen your last post, 3rd owner (why has he had 3????) and wife not 100% before this, sorry but this only confirms my first opinion. The First owner may have had something similar happens and couldn't have him destroyed so passed him on, you can't do the same

Glad to see the back of 2009............

Milenah's right.

Watch how jealous a dog becomes when a new baby arrives.

Sorry, not what you wanted to hear. I would still seek professional advice though.

In my opinion it has tasted blood and there is now only one responsible action unless you are going to guarantee that you will be its next victim, not some innocent stranger.

My wife was attacked walking along the street earlier in the year and she got away with cut arms, but had she been with our 2 year old it could have been a different story!

Appreciate its difficult but its also not nice for an innocent person to get attacked when a dog is known to be aggresive.

I had a massive doberman that was aggressive towards other dogs and very protective of my wife and kids and was daft as a brush in the house with family and friends. You wouldn't want to break in though
Your dog may have though the other dog was a threat to a family member and did what he was supposed to do.
Just because he was aggressive to another dog does not mean he may be a danger to people.
Find the facts before you make a decision. You would never forgive yourself if you had it put down and then found out that the other dog had kicked off and yours was just being protective.

There is the possibility that the dog won't dare touch the baby on the idea that "this has come from Master, better not bite"

However I'd be ultra-uber-super-mega careul about this...

As long as you wife and kids are ok! What about if you are not around, the kids are old enough to walk it and then it attacks someone!

PS - that's exactly what happened to my wife, two 16 year olds walking a Doberman! (not saying you or your dog would do that,but people need to be responsible to others especially where a dog has killed something).

quote:

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Originally posted by Confused but excited.
I had a massive doberman that was aggressive towards other dogs and very protective of my wife and kids and was daft as a brush in the house with family and friends. You wouldn't want to break in though
Your dog may have though the other dog was a threat to a family member and did what he was supposed to do.
Just because he was aggressive to another dog does not mean he may be a danger to people.
Find the facts before you make a decision. You would never forgive yourself if you had it put down and then found out that the other dog had kicked off and yours was just being protective.

---

Im sorry but thats got mostly jack rusell in it, so NO way can you trust that dog!!! if looked more like a staff it wouldnt be so bad! staffs are prone for hating other dogs, male dogs are worse for it, but they are mostly good with people. but with so much jack in the dog you have no choice my freind! i had a working jack rusell that would wanna bite everone, game over for him im afraid. im sorry to say this as i know its very hard to loose a dog

i have seen this before too often ...
ask your self
what will he kill next
if my dog bit another dog i would put it down that day,
i blame you sorry to say the owner for not training it ,socialising it ect i see it too aften ,
i help out at a dog rescue and hear it all the time.
(if it was your dog that got killed would you want it put down )

Dude you'd never forgive yourself if anything happened to your newborn .
you know the answer already



[Edited on 23/12/09 by OX]

Thats a bit harsh my freind, you cant blame the owner here! you got a bad mixture of dog there, the rusell is a very tough dog, its mixed with a muscly dog like a staff, so its a very capable killing dog. my jack would take on any dog much bigger than him, once they start to fight theres no stopping them

Im sorry to sound like a dog hater, but im not! heres apic of my last lurcher, he lived to 12 years old, if your furry then look out http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a268/billybruiser/billy.jpg

There is a big difference between being agressive to and scrapping with other dogs and killing one.

I have had dogs in the family for most of my life and I know what I would do - even if i hated to do it.

It does not sound like this one can be trusted. I am afraid I think you have no choice and cannot afford to take the risk.

This happenned to a neighbour of mine.

It's harsh, but the only way out is to have the dog put down.

It really is the only way to show to the other owners that you recognise the severity of the matter. Also you should cover any costs, if any, they incurred.

I would do it if my dog did something like that.

Just reading through the posts here has changed my opinion.

If you know in your own mind you cant risk your own newborn child with having the dog in the house by trusting him 100%, is it fair to potentially put another family at risk by re-homing him??

2 previous owners before you is a concern for me - do you know why they wanted him re-homed?? This quite possibly isn't the first time something has happened.

Sorry Steve but i'd be looking at speaking to a vet at the very least to see if they have another option other than having him put down.

its a sad fact that them jack russels are mini killing machines!!!!!!

reading the posts, Steve, you know what ive said mate, he's a good dog, been great aroung my kids, but think he will have to be re-homed.

quote:

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Originally posted by Steve G

If you know in your own mind you cant risk your own newborn child with having the dog in the house by trusting him 100%, is it fair to potentially put another family at risk by re-homing him??

---

as soon as i found out my gf was pregnant i got rid of my 2 dogs. because you hear of all these kids getting attacked and i didnt want mine to be one of them.
adam

edit: it was a shitty thing to do but i dont regret it. and most of your time gos on the new baby so its one less thing to worry about aswell.
adam

[Edited on 23/12/09 by oadamo]

give the dog to some old grannies, tell then it hates other dogs and it should be ok, just make sure they know!

I feel very sorry for you but I think you have to understand your dog. Many dogs fight, lots of noise and very frightening but they seldom kill. Your dog has killed. No good saying the other dog may have started it. Your dog was in the other dogs teritory and must have known that.
Suppose you keep the dog, it accepts the baby. It has to accept its demotion to lowest member of the pack with no option ever to challenge for promotion. Ok so it does this. It will then protect all pack members. This is an absolute duty for dogs. Usualy they will warn an intruder or anyone they see as threatening. Can you trust your dog to do just this. That granny down the shops reaching in to the pram and cooing may get herself attacked. What if she has he Yorkie under her arm?
Be realistic.

Hey dusty, did that pup in a bun in your avtar taste nice???

What breed was the other dog that was killed? out of interest,
If it were my dog that was killed i would want something done, unless i knew my dog was at fault anyway!

Aggressive dogs are no good to no one especially children. If a child moved towards it and the dog interpreted it as aggressive I hope you can live with yourself and the consequences.

For it to have actually killed the other dog shows it has a very viscious streak. I wouldn't want anything to do with it.
Take it to your vet and ask for their advice perhaps.

quote:

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Originally posted by stuart_g
Aggressive dogs are no good to no one especially children. If a child moved towards it and the dog interpreted it as aggressive I hope you can live with yourself and the consequences.

For it to have actually killed the other dog shows it has a very viscious streak. I wouldn't want anything to do with it.
Take it to your vet and ask for their advice perhaps.

---

I do not yet know the full story of what happened, the only thing I know is that (although not confirmed yet) my dog has killed the other dog. This was in the their (dogs) house, that he has never been to before, and because he'd been let in by them.

There was a community support officer round and they said straight away that they didn't want to press charges or have anything happen to my dog.

I would be 100% confident that my dog would know it's place when the baby came along, and that the baby would not be in danger, but I feel that I would have my opinion be second place to my wifes in this matter.

I would not choose to rehome the dog without it being a perfectly suitable home and without a new owner being 100% informed about how my dog is going to him if that is what is possible.

I am going to ring the vets in the morning an tell them the full story and seek advice from them.

I am unsure what to do, the only thing I know for sure is that I would do a lot not to have my dog killed at this stage, despite him being responsible for killing the other dog.

tbh had a dog done that to one of my dogs I'd have put it down there and then by wringing its neck, then I'd be telling the owner to buy me another dog.

Plenty of people will take a dog with signs of that temperament Steve.

I do feel however, that even though you are 100% that it will know its place when the newborn arrives, once it does arrive you may feel differently.

Obv a touchy subject, please take my reply in the lightest possible terms as I am not a father or a dog owner, this is just how I feel I would react.

The hardest thing I have ever done in my life is to walk into the vets with my dog, and walk out without it.


NO dog is 100% trustworthy, and finding it a new home is passing the buck, IMHO.


Paul G

The dog may protect his territory as the little child is born. That's in his nature.

So only if you are in strong charge to protect your territory and the wife and doggy, then he will accept a child.

If the dog must protect his own, the child will be have a least scarfes.

So ask your self will the dog accept a lower ranking. If not.....

This all comes with being a parent...

This one is hard,but first i would go see this neighbour who as lost there dog and see what they want and go from there.that then give,s you a choice if they say keep the dog and then its up to you and your wife but if your wife is not happy then there is only one choice i cannot see any one been the no-4 owner,s what was the other dog

Its all good saying that your sure the dog will be ok around the new child, but if someone had asked you a few days ago, 'do you think your dog would kill another dog?', I bet you would have answered 'Not a chance' - but now you know otherwise.

Just say your wrong and it does attack another dog, or worse a child (yours or someone elses)
Do you want to be in the position of explaning to your other children/friends/relatives/newscrews etc that you were sure your dog would be ok, despite killing before.

Think of it as a person, if you kill someone, you have to be judged and sentenced on your actions. I dont think a Jury would accept, 'I wont do it again, honest' You would go to Jail fullstop. In some countrys you would be put down. and thats a person we are talking about. At the end of the day, despite you loving it and it being part of the family, it is only an animal, and as there is no way to put an animal in prison (without being unfair to it as it will never know what its done wrong) the only answer (IMO) is to have it put to sleep.

[Edited on 24/12/09 by loggyboy]

Having it put to sleep is not what I would be doing if I walked into the vets with it, and walked out without it.

The dog would not be snoozing, kicking it's little legs asleep, it would be dead.

I cannot in good conscience be the person that does that to a person or an animal, I never stand on a bug/worm/snail etc in my entire life. It's not relevant that this decision is about my own dog, I would still not do this.

I agree with lots of the above, in that it's a risk that is not worth taking even though I am confident in it#s future behaviour. I hope that I don't wee people off on here by not taking what they've called the only option, but I will do my best to get him taken to a dogs trust or something, but with nothing hidden about what's happened...

IMHO it's not worth the risk keeping him yourself and it would be negligent to pass him on to someone else (even if you did tell them all about him).

Sorry, mate

Steve,

As a father and a dog owner I feel for you. What a shocking thing to happen.

If it was me, from what you've said I'd personally decide that that dog has to go.
(EDIT: I think your choice is wise.)

Emotionally a tough decision I know but my first duty is to guarantee safety for the baby and, as important, to give my wife peace of mind.

When you first hold your baby you'll know what I mean.

You need a dog though, right? Just not this one. I think it's important to replace a lost dog in your life. (If you have the space, time and commitment.)

Anyway you might need an excuse to get out of the house from time to time.

Are you able to go with your neighbour to choose a couple of suitable new puppies? One for them and one for you? Bitches are a good bet in a family environment. See the one on the left for example. Spend the time training properly and you will be well repaid.

D

[Edited on 24/12/09 by Dave Ashurst]

Another option could be to contact RSPCA/Dogs Trust to see if they will take the dog before resorting to it being put down. The only concern here is the attacking of another dog. If its not got a history of it then you may be OK. I guess in return you could sponsor a dog or two there. My son, when he was about 5, asked for a dog sponsorship one year as a birthday present.

Spoke to the other half and she says you should get the dog to the vets first in case there is something physically wrong with the dog (e.g brain disorder). You could try one of the muzzle cages that they use for lurchers to stop them snaffling day old chips when out for a walk (our friend's dog has that problem) and a dog cage when its in the house (its a large cage that acts as an indoor kennel).

Its a real knacker of a decision to make, I won't even put down our old dog who is so old and arthritic I have to assist getting up at the moment. As long as he wants his dinner and isn't miserable then he is fine to carry on.

As others have said, the dog will probably attack the baby at some point, over something silly like playing with one of its toys, pulling wiskers or tail or just climbing on it whilst the dog is asleep. It sounds like the dog doesn't instigate but does react with overwhelming force.

Your main problem is that you can do the muzzle guard, cage e.t.c, but it only takes *one* time to harm the baby which means you would need an inordinate amount of vigilance.

It's just a dog and needs to be put down.

Stu

I just have that scene in my head, from The Green Mile - the boy whose face was mauled by the dog.

This is a crap situation Steve. Seems like your only option is to seek rehoming. Dunno if any of the following can help:

RSPCA Gonsal Farm 0300 123 8642 Dorrington, Shrewsbury, SY5 7ET
RSPCA Macclesfield 01625 669620
The Dogs Trust 01952 770225 Roden Lane Farm, Telford, TF6 6BP
RSPCA Wallasey 0151 638 6318 Cross Lane, Wallasey
RSPCA Warrington, Halton and St Helens 01925 632944 Slutchers Lane, Bank Quay, Warrington, WA1 1NA
RSPCA Stoke (North Staffs Branch) 01782 871871
Alsager Animals in Need 01270 875260
Mid Cheshire Animal Welfare, Northwich 01606 46377
Sandbach Animal Rescue 01270 766905
Shropshire Cat Rescue 01743 357912
PDSA Stoke on Trent 01782 413415 Assisted vet treatment
Dog Rescue Pages www.dogpages.org.uk

Oh, Mate. That is just THE worst news imaginable! You know what I'm like with pets; I'm currently concerned about travelling in South East Asia because they eat dogs and cats...

Speak to the vet, speak to the Dogs Trust. Their workers know more about dog behaviour than just about anyone I've come across. In fact, I'll send your original post to an ex-colleague who's wife works with dogs for some advice.

I'm not convinced that a dog killing a dog makes it dangerous to humans. What if the dog looked like a rabbit? Do you see my point?

At the same time, it has to be family first...

God, what a problem to have!

Steve,
This is a difficult one, and not a particularly good one to try to get a public concensus on as there will people on here that love dogs, people who hate dogs, people who hate dogs and have children, people who love dogs and have children etc so the opinions, to which everyone is entitled, will cover the whole spectrum. It is also an emmotive issue and I think that you need to get some objective, professional advice.
Out of interest, as I think anyone you talk to will want to know, was the other dog a dog or bitch?

Really feel for you on this one & know i'd be struggling if i was in your position - G/f suggested you try this,

http://www.janfennellthedoglistener.com/

She's supposed to be excellent and it may help if you are considering keeping her.

Good luck and I hope no one else ever has to go through this decision making process.

I don't know whether it was a dog/bitch, it's a west highland white, and did nothing but bark/yap at everything and everyone. Please don't misinterpret this remark as aloofness as to what my dog did, I am merely commenting.

Thanks for the comments, both good and bad, I knew asking for advice here, would return advice that I didn't want to hear (I have to admit I didn't expect a couple of the real base responces, that appear to originate from some real pricks on here, but nevermind).

Derek, thanks for the numbers, I've already contacted the local vet, there's only one in Middlewich, I told her everything I know, and she is coming back to me with some numbers, but I'll get started on those!

She did say that if even if the dog has exibeted this aggression now, and potentially in the past, but never shown it toward a person of any age, then there are places that will take him. It won't be the same life as family environment, but I do acknowledge that inspite of my confidence of him never touching a baby, and getting a muzzle etc, that it is something that must be decided by the head and not the heart. The decision to have him not here anymore was in my mind straight away, but the decision to have him killed because he did something that I don't know the initiating circumstances is also something that I know would not happen either.

Sorry to here it mate, for what it's worth I think you're doing the right thing, take it slowly, get as much good professional advice as you can.

quote:

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Originally posted by Steve Hignett
I agree with lots of the above, in that it's a risk that is not worth taking even though I am confident in it#s future behaviour. I hope that I don't wee people off on here by not taking what they've called the only option, but I will do my best to get him taken to a dogs trust or something, but with nothing hidden about what's happened...

---

What an awful thing to happen. Sadly the dog has now killed and may kill again. You owe it to those around you, and to others who innocently may be around, to remove the dog from any possibility of killing/harming again. I belive there is only one, unpleasant though safe, solution. Sorry.

Very sorry to hear that!but on a lighter note,christmas dinner is sorted!

We have kept dogs since i was i kid, i would'nt worry to much about the dog on dog killing, our racing grey hounds used to fight all the time and if they wernt split up there would be deaths, and the rottweilers would bring home pheasants and once a small monk jack, but if you and wifey dont trust the dog anymore then get him taken away im sure a shelter or charity will take him

There seems to be a train of thought that the dog will now be 'addicted to killing'... as if the taste of blood has turned him into some kind of vampire-canine!

It's a dog... it will kill things! Ours will kill (and usually eat) anything that's small, furry and runs away from them. I suspect they would also chase and kill a smaller dog if it strayed onto the farm. Hell, they were chasing a pack of deer 3-times their size yesterday... who knows what they were going to do if they caught one - revert to type probably, kill it and eat it!

Having said all that - they're perfectly sociable dogs and (seem to) love the kids... I still wouldn't trust them though as they are animals!

If it were me, then I'd try and re-home him... try a local farm - sounds like he'd be an ideal 'ratter'. But be up-front with what's happened.

If that fails, then it sounds like you've lost trust in him, in which case he has to go to the big kennel in the sky!

afj... you posted whilst I was typing mine - amen, brother!

Steve
really feel for you, I have had black Labs all my life, the last fella for 15 years as a constant companion. I have experienced many things during my 20 plus years in the Fire Service but not many made me feel as bad as the day I had to make the call for him.
His succesor is now nearly 2 and shaping up quite nicely but an incident like you have just experienced raises the question - are we asking to much from them.
To expand, my dog is the family pet and massively protective of both my partner and the children, at the same time he is my gun dog and massively loyal. When certain members of the travelling community tried to relieve me of my garage contents he took a piece out of them and got a good kicking for his troubles, for this we praised him but conversely when the neighbours dog came into the garden and got fighting he got a good boll#cking - it must be massively confusing for them to understand what we are expecting in all situations.
I see that you dont know the full details of how this dreadful event occurred but just supposing the other dog kicked off first - I know what I would do if my back was against the wall, strangely enough our neighbours dog is some type of terrier which seems to spend its entire lfe attacking bigger animals including humans
- I think it has small man syndrome!
So whilst I cant offer any advice, I can sympathise with your situation and hope that you can find a satisfactory solution
Best regards
Andy

quote:

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Originally posted by billy
Thats a bit harsh my freind, you cant blame the owner here! you got a bad mixture of dog there, the rusell is a very tough dog, its mixed with a muscly dog like a staff, so its a very capable killing dog. my jack would take on any dog much bigger than him, once they start to fight theres no stopping them

---

I’m really sorry to hear what happened especially at this time of year

Couple of questions

How old was the other dog?

Was it healthy?

Did yours it rip it to pieces?

You never know your dog could have been 'playing' and given the other dog a heart attack.

My old Lab and Jack Russell used to scrap all the time, as in Jack Russell’s head inside Labs mouth type of scrap, the Jack Russell gave as good as she got BTW.

These always seemed like real fights but they were only playing and nether of them ever got injured in any way.

I could imagine my Lab going next door and showing his teeth to our neighbours Highland Terrier and it having a heart attack.

In fact I’m sure one the neighbours (pedigree/inbred) Highlands dropped dead the other day from a heart attack, I will ask him later.

I think the 'taste for blood' is a bit of a fallacy unless you’re talking about a desperate, starving animal (which yours obviously isn’t).

They may be a bit stupid but not stupid enough to want to eat a fresh warm highland terrier.

I would get the facts, maybe pay for an autopsy of the other dog, at least then you are clearer in your mind what happened.

If it did grab it by the throat and collapse its windpipe then put the thing down, that would show that it knows how to kill and if it even nips a kids throat it could easily kill it!

But my guess is heart attack and your dog really can’t be held responsible for that, the blame would then lie with the person who let yours in their house.

I hope you manage sort this out have a good Christmas

All dogs will naturally go for the throat if they get an opportunity... instinct tells them that it's the best way of disabling another animal! They practice it in play when they're pups. The only time they will 'rip another dog apart' is post-mortem if they intend eating it, or the battle is so fierce that they have to re-affirm a grip time and again and skin tears as a result.

Every time a new pup arrives on the farm it playfully attacks the older dogs... it gets battered each and every time, but it keeps doing it! I couldn't even hazard a guess as to the amount of times 'Lil Poppy (the youngest) was swung around by the throat. It just takes a little bit too much pressure and it's game (literally!) over!

Your incident could well have been the canine equivalent of a 'square-go' where one guy punches another and he dies as a result of the single-blow. Bit unfair that he should be regarded in the same manner as a bloke who goes out with a knife looking to murder people, so why should a dog be any different!

Sure, it sounds like your dog's a bit of a rough one... but he can be turned around (it's a load of bollox that you can't teach an old dog new tricks). However, I suspect that you won't have the time to do it with a wee-one on the way, so try and get him re-homed with a strong owner.

i feel very sad for you mate but its your pet and i hope you sort things out but also it mite not be your dogs fault i wish you all the best at this time good luck paul

PS - Odd the timing of this subject coming up as my mate had a Cocker-Spaniel... little timid thing - great with the kids. Last month one of the kids he and his wife fosters (a 10 year old I think) thought it would be a good idea to put his head into the dog's bowl and pretend to eat as she was having her daily meal. The dog snapped once at him and ripped his ear off.

ABSOLUTELY, not the dogs fault... it did what mother-nature had taught her to do. But as it was a kid (and someone else's at that) the dog was immediately destroyed!

Real shame!

you'll find a farmer who'll have him. We were working on a farm where the guy had about 9 hounds, it was mayhem when they were let out.

From a legal point of view the responsability lies with whoever is responsable for the maintenance of the fence.

If your Missus is unhappy about keeping the dog I would say your decisions been made for you.
In saying that Ive owned 3 Staffs Bullies all of which were scrappers and have cheerfully tried to kill other dogs but were 100% safe around any humans of any shape or size.
The Jack Russell we have at the moment however is a different kettle of fish he is a right moody little shite and although he loves my 2 year old Grandson to bits we would never ever leave the 2 alone together and if anything did happen take it from me I wouldnt need a vet to put him down.

As you say the dog has had 2 previous owners this would set alarm bells ringing with me, is he OK around your other kids or is the expected baby the first.
Cheers,
Bob

[Edited on 24/12/09 by splitrivet]

Going for the throat in a play fight or even a 'scrap' is going to leave VERY different marks than a dog bite to kill, dogs are very very good at controlling their bits, you know when a dog is warning you or when it actually want to hurt you. I have had experience of both. A Rhodesian ridgeback though I got to close to its owner, it hurt me but didn’t break the skin but scared the s**t out of me!!(The owner was fit though) and food related, Jack Russell drew blood with one bite the little s**t, RIP Penny (and no I didn’t get her put down)

What I was getting at was, did it mean to kill it?

I highly doubt it

Scrapping and gave the dog a heart attack, I will even put a sportsman’s bet on it

I would still re-home it as Jack Russell terrier type dogs and small kids don’t tend to mix. We would never have trusted ours with small kids even though it never even growled at one.

Just to give a quick update, I still don't know the sex of their dog (around 11-12 years old), but after speaking to my dad just now, who went and brought my dog back as soon as it happened, said that there was no blood anywhere at all on my dog, and couldn't see any on the other dog. I've spoken to my vet at length now (same vet for the other dog too) and although not examined the other dog, she is convinced that the other dog would of had a heart attack (this was before I'd learnt about the lack of blood).

There will be 3 months before my baby arrives, and I am going to use this time to find the dog a good home, with a strong owner that knows the full circmstances and who wants to take my dog. (if anyone can help with this, I will travel anywhere to help and provide anything/everything required).

But, in the mean time, I will not have my dog put down as a result of what happened. My wife has bought two muzzles today (fabric and cage type), I will build a kennel with run in my back yard to house the dog, so it know's it's place as an outside animal etc.

If people would like to pass comment on what I've decided to do I would, once again, be open to hear positive and negative views.

I am however trying my best to refrain from having an opinion on thunderaces post...

There is a large difference between play fighting then the Westie had a heart attack compared with your dog ripped the throat out of the Westie. You really need to get all the information from the people who witnessed the incident.

err, with me saying that there was no blood on either dog, I'd be pretty sure that even if it were play fighting that went wrong, or fighting that went wrong - for you to say that my dog ripped the throat out of the westie would be a bit far fetched and scaremongering???

ps - my above post is written in reference to witnesses of the accident.
pps - I am not excusing my dog. Two dogs had a fight and one dog is dead, hence my dog killed the other dog.

I thought so

It’s your neighbour who’s at fault

At least you can have a better Christmas in the knowledge that you should feel no guilt over the situation

It’s a real shame the dog has to go though, I feel for you and wish I could help

I really hope you manage to relax and have a good Christmas

[Edited on 24/12/09 by hicost blade]

Dogs need to know where they are in the pecking order, once they know, they're fine. They can be the softest, friendliest dog in the world.

The problem comes when they find their position in the hierarchy threatened. They will fight and kill to retain it (the most natural thing in the world to a dog).

You'll probably be fine, the dog won't find the baby a threat, but at some point in the future, for whatever reason the dog "might" decide it's position is being threatened by your baby/child.

Small as that chance might be, I wouldn't risk it for a minute

I learnt to train dogs from the age of 12 from my ex step dad who was an RAF handler and trainer. I also trained dogs in obedience and manwork (gaurding/attack) for several years for my living. Things to consider and best advise I can give..

A dog IS a wild animal and we suppress their natural instinct which is to live in a pack with a heirachy and to hunt and kill for food or protection of the packs interests. Over many hundreds of years we have tempered this behaviour but it is NEVER got rid of. A dog who has experienced ruling a family member moves up the heirachy and the behaviour is remembered and re-enacted. A dog who has killed also re awakens a natural instinct and moves up in a heirachy. A dog like this should NEVER be trusted around ANY children not just babies. Children are pack that back down, show fear or run away from the top dog which encourages and triggers dominance and hunting/chasing instincts.

As for being put down.. this isnt unavoidable. To be re-homed the dog would need to go to owners with no children at home, who knew of his history and are prepared to control his behaviour through training and always being physically controlled with a lead in public and if showing signs of agression to other dogs then muzzled.

Maybe not the ideal life for a dog but better than dead hey!!

I normally defer to anyone who has a professional background in something I don't, but in this case I have to take issue with a couple of points.

A domestic dog is not by definition a "wild" animal. This is an important distinction as the long-standing (and largely disputed) pack / hierarchical beliefs are based on studies of the behavior of wolves living in their natural habitat. Experts now question the relevance of these studies... many believing it has no standing whatsoever in the case of the domesticated dog.

As for the suggestion that, "a dog who has killed also re-awakens a natural instinct and moves up in a heirachy. A dog like this should NEVER be trusted around ANY children, not just babies". This may apply if said dog has killed a member of the 'pack' (again, it's not proven), but has little relevance if it has killed another small furry animal! Every dog I've ever had has killed things - none (so far... touch wood) has ever shown a hint of aggression at myself or a family member.

I can only talk about my own observations of dogs behaviours over many years (I'm 51 now )

Watch the dog whisperer chap and see the pack behaviour. The distinctions for a dog are not if it is fury and has four legs, we have domesticated them for many many years.. where do you think dogs came from before we domesticated them if not the wild?

I agree that not EVERY dog will learn from a particular behaviour but certain dogs and certain breeds will. Every now and again we see a child mauled or killed but I guess this doesnt matter as its very rare

Thats the end of my input as this was just another oppinion for Steve to consider as is yours. I'm sure they are both welcome

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err, with me saying that there was no blood on either dog, I'd be pretty sure that even if it were play fighting that went wrong, or fighting that went wrong - for you to say that my dog ripped the throat out of the westie would be a bit far fetched and scaremongering???

ps - my above post is written in reference to witnesses of the accident.
pps - I am not excusing my dog. Two dogs had a fight and one dog is dead, hence my dog killed the other dog.

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True it sounds to me like they were having a little pop at each other and the Westie happened to drop dead. There might be a case here for carry on as normal cos it's not like your dog purposely killed...

Like you giving your mate in the pub a dig in the ribs and he trips over and knocks himself out, and then everyone drags you away before you figure out what happened, your dog might have been confused at his new playmate falling over. No "taste for killing" there

steve if you do put the dog in a run/ kennel be vary carefull the next morning when you go in to feed/walk him, we had a slightly unruley german shepard, that we decided to home in a run, problem was he decided it was HIS and no one elses, so when my dad walked in to feed him the dog took him down police dog style and bit him so hard that he broke my dads arm, a police dog handler had to come and remove the dog from my dads arm with one of those noose things, that dog was 3rd or 4th hand

Every time there is a thread about a dog being involved in something like this you someone will come up with something along the lines of-

"there are no bad dogs, only bad owners"

but if they were to think about it, they might realise that that statement doesn't stand up to any logical examination. Of course there are bad dogs, just as there are examples of bad behaviour in all animals with brains big enough to exhibit some kind of variation from others of their species.

I have no idea whether the dog in question is a 'bad dog' or not, and I have no opinion on what should happen to it now, especially after reading the later posts. But the idea that it's only ever the owner's fault if a dog attacks another animal or a human is daft.

Responding to just last post because of where I am n this night etc


I wanted to.criticise that specific post,but felt I should be more subservient because it is MY dog that is responsible, but I am trying to think about my immediate family and (more importantly right now) the family of my parents neighbours... they have been in touch with mum n dad and have offered more details about how their dog bit my dogs nose before my dog responded.

Having said that I also feel very responsible because several months ago, I chipped my dogs incisor (sp) n that made it sharp n that will hav at least scratched the other dog...

Also in response to the last post; I knew I was allowing myself to be judged by a lot of people not-privy to the whole facts, but that's theprice to pay....

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Originally posted by Steve Hignett


Also in response to the last post; I knew I was allowing myself to be judged by a lot of people not-privy to the whole facts, but that's theprice to pay....

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Originally posted by mr henderson

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Originally posted by Steve Hignett


Also in response to the last post; I knew I was allowing myself to be judged by a lot of people not-privy to the whole facts, but that's theprice to pay....

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I assume you are referring to my post, as that is the last one before your's that I'm quoting here. There is nowhere in that post in which I am judging you. Read it again. I'm not talking about you at all. Where did you think I was? In fact, I went to extra trouble in writing it to make that absolutely clear. Not clear enough, apparently.

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Once again, sorry, but I've had a couple of drinks tonight, and neither my response to your post or my reply makes pefrect sense to even me right now!

No idea how to say this when it's on a post that I care so much about, but Mr Henderson's reply was in my favour and I was in agreement to that entirely...

Enough said for now..............

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Originally posted by Steve Hignett


Enough said for now..............

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Have to say I agree with Mr Henderson about on at least some of his points. I knew a couple that had 2 GSD on of which was a big puppy the other was a killing machine , both dogs had been owned since puppies by the same people and treated exactly the same. Hope everything gets sorted out OK Steve , I know how you feel .

When it comes to bad owners vs bad dogs, I remember the Simpsons episode with the elephant head butting the other elephants. Marge asked why it was doing it and the keeper said something along the lines of "just like humands sometimes animals are jerks".

The problem with bad owners is training their dogs to be agressive or not taking appropriate measures with a dog (e.g. the basked muzzle for "snaffle hounds" who eat anything lying on the pavement then get the squits the following day.

Just like humans, some animals can be total knobs.

Speaking again with SWMBO about the whole thing, was either dog bloddied after the attack to any major degree? As someone else said, it may be just that they had a go at each other and the westie keeled over with a dodgy heart if it was old.

[Edited on 26/12/09 by bigpig]

Steve

I have a friend who works at the Blue cross down here in Bromsgrove. If you need any questions answered whilst trying to come to a decison drop us a U2U and I will ask her.

Cheers

Shaun

First of all....

NO dog ever gets trusted with children EVER.

Animals dont speak, and we only think we know what they are thinking.

However a dog who has killed another dog may not necessarily be bad with family/children.

Clearly your dog doesnt tolerate some dogs, for me this is something you can try and train out of it by socialising it, you all work at training your dog to tolerate other dogs, ie agility classes are excellent for socialising.

I know of a friend with a very similar dog to yours who was very ratty and anti social, after 6 months agility work he is totally settled.

When children are involved, the dog must understand fully who is boss, with my dogs the pecking order used to be me,wife then all three kids.

You can reinforce this by supervising children feeding the dog on a rotation basis, getting them to do basic commands then feed him. After 30 seconds of him eating , get the child to take the food off him. Mine used to scare my wife eating, but was ok with the kids , I used to get her to do it and he stopped being ratty otherwise he didnt get fed !

Dont jump the gun yet, but keep a very close eye on him and if you want him to fit in with family life consider dog classes/agility, if he doesnt fit in there then he has to move on...


good luck

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Originally posted by thunderace
i blame you sorry to say the owner for not training it ,socialising it ect i see it too aften

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Originally posted by thunderace
if you socialised it when it was a pup it would not attact other dogs .
YOU DONT GET BAD DOG JUST BAD OWNERS

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Originally posted by Steve Hignett
We are his THIRD owners and so even though he will obey my commands, he isn't very good with my wife and parents don't tell him the same way I do.

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Thats a bit of a epic thread resurrection there!

Actually the first time i had read the thread but while we're here, whats the update on this?

Ive met the dog in question while at steves and have to say that while it was a fairly lively specimen it was not out character for a dog of its age or size and didnt appear aggressive to me.

I've grew up with a great dane that was tall than me most of life and then a number of dogs since as have most of the rest of my extened family and i have to say I dont really buy either the 'theres no bad god, just bad owners' or the 'thats clearly mainly jack rusell so you can trust it' schools of thought. Life isnt cut and dried like that. Theres also clearly a huge, gab between ripping a another dog apart in cold blood, and going up to an ageing rather energetically and causing it a heart attack and a massive scale between the two. Our last dog, a terrier/greyhouse/airedale cross mongrel type thing was as soft as a brush, but she killed a handful baby rabbits every spring, just by 'playing with ' (chasing) them until they overheated. All that said, i can really see that with a young child around, you would want to be 100% sure, and sad though it is to let go of a friend, sometimes its has to happen.


Daniel

[Edited on 27/8/2010 by dhutch]

Dan - U2 sent. Sorry, think I called you Steve on the U2 too!

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Originally posted by McLannahan
Dan - U2 sent. Sorry, think I called you Steve on the U2 too!

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