Sanzomat
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| posted on 12/10/21 at 03:31 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by russbost
A plug in hybrid solves absolutely nothing, it's simply an ICE car dressed up in an electric frock - most of them can't do much more than
30 miles or so on pure electric
I'm going to disagree with that statement. Putting aside the embodied carbon of the additional ICE for a moment, when I had my Passat GTE
plug-in I kept a record of my miles done on petrol vs EV and 65% were on electric despite only a 30 mile range. I don't think 2/3 of total
mileage done is insignificant and despite lugging around an ICE and fuel tank I was lugging around a lot less weight of battery so the miles per kW/hr
were similar to most pure EVs. Also, urban air quality which is arguably one of the main reasons for going EV - box ticked as it should be possible
for all urban journeys to be done on the EV range.
Whilst a large part of the carbon footprint of building an EV is the batteries, having a car with just enough range for most short journeys to be EV
but then using an ICE for longer journeys actually makes sense to me. If I managed 65% of my total miles on battery with only 30 mile range then I
guess most people could. The embodied CO2 of the bigger battery needed for full range is probably similar to that of the ICE?
Also, no additional electric infrastructure needed as most users can charge their little battery at home overnight from a 13A socket and if they get
caught short while out and about just fire up the ICE for a bit.
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 12/10/21 at 03:48 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
Like it or not EV's will eventually replace ICE, not yet but maybe in the next 10-20 years as cars improve and fuel costs continue to rise or
have limited availability, almost everyone will turn to electric. Like I said younger generations like my kids only want an EV and even this morning
on the way to school were complaining that engine cars stink, literally 
Certainly that's an increasing number, but there are still plenty of folk who hate the silence and necessary weight (and un-necessary cost) of
EVs. Kids too. Spend any time at a car meet, and you'll see very little interest in the EVs. They're a tool, not a joy. I'm very
much functionally driven, and they don't meet my functions yet. Honestly, I'd love to, but they just don't. I'd have to have
two cars still, and having one EV rules out having multiple cars on a cost basis unless I buy one that is so specific-use that it's literally
just used for the commute.
[Edited on 12/10/21 by coyoteboy]
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 12/10/21 at 03:52 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by russbost
A plug in hybrid solves absolutely nothing, it's simply an ICE car dressed up in an electric frock - most of them can't do much more than
30 miles or so on pure electric
"Plus of course, PCP on a new car is just laughing wildly while throwing cash onto a bonfire" - well I can agree on that, hence why I
don't use PCP & never have - but that goes for ICE or electric it has nothing specific to do with one or the other.
Hybrid does solve a problem. It solves the problem of "I want a long range large car for my weekend trips, but I can't afford a very high
value, large, long range EV". If 4/5th of your trips are <20 miles, a 30 mile range on electric is super cheap overnight charge and no local
emissions. Then when Friday comes and you pack up the camping kit, you know you can pick up fuel anywhere, rapidly, and carry a spare jerry can for if
the local garages are shut. The shame is they also then add a penalty on complexity and max MPG, but they're a good half-way house.
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russbost
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| posted on 13/10/21 at 08:33 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Sanzomat
quote:
Originally posted by russbost
A plug in hybrid solves absolutely nothing, it's simply an ICE car dressed up in an electric frock - most of them can't do much more than
30 miles or so on pure electric
I'm going to disagree with that statement. Putting aside the embodied carbon of the additional ICE for a moment, when I had my Passat GTE
plug-in I kept a record of my miles done on petrol vs EV and 65% were on electric despite only a 30 mile range. I don't think 2/3 of total
mileage done is insignificant and despite lugging around an ICE and fuel tank I was lugging around a lot less weight of battery so the miles per kW/hr
were similar to most pure EVs. Also, urban air quality which is arguably one of the main reasons for going EV - box ticked as it should be possible
for all urban journeys to be done on the EV range.
Whilst a large part of the carbon footprint of building an EV is the batteries, having a car with just enough range for most short journeys to be EV
but then using an ICE for longer journeys actually makes sense to me. If I managed 65% of my total miles on battery with only 30 mile range then I
guess most people could. The embodied CO2 of the bigger battery needed for full range is probably similar to that of the ICE?
Also, no additional electric infrastructure needed as most users can charge their little battery at home overnight from a 13A socket and if they get
caught short while out and about just fire up the ICE for a bit.
Yeah, sorry, I should have clarified that, I meant in response to Coyoteboy's case - I can certainly see a place for hybrid where it's a
plug in hybrid, where I can see little point is with the so called "self charging hybrids" (that phrase should be illegal unless they can
demonstrate that they have invented perpetual motion!) & particularly for people that have a regular relatively short commute, or perhaps a
slightly longer one where they can charge at destination.
I really feel this is one place where infrastructure is very poor, even an ordinary 13A charge point available at destinations such as workplaces
& hotels where the stop is likely to be for at least 8 hours or so, even a 13A socket gets a reasonable boost in in that length of time
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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russbost
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| posted on 13/10/21 at 08:38 AM |
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"They're a tool, not a joy" - I'd second that, I regard mine as a domestic appliance rather than a car!But then for the vast
majority of the current generation they already regarded the car as a domestic appliance - hence why most of them have no idea what goes on under the
bonnet anymore than they understand the workings of their washing machine & why many of them fail to understand why anything should need
"servicing"!
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
|
NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 13/10/21 at 12:55 PM |
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I don't know, its a long time since I've enjoyed driving a car so much and I don't think a car has to be fast and noisy to be fun.
When I was a teenager I'd had a few very thirsty cars, low 20's or less and going for a drive simply meant burning money. It was a real
put off for wanting to use them. However I got a 1.1 Fiesta which meant suddenly I was getting over 55 mpg, I drove and drove that thing everywhere,
till someone crashed into it 
I find the EV is the same. We're going on trips every weekend we'd never have done because of the cost of petrol. I'm just going off
for drives in the countryside sightseeing, just for the hell of it
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sdh2903
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| posted on 13/10/21 at 06:12 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
I find the EV is the same. We're going on trips every weekend we'd never have done because of the cost of petrol. I'm just going off
for drives in the countryside sightseeing, just for the hell of it
Therin lies the rub. Your not going on drives to enjoy the car. Your going on drives because its cheap.
Has been said the ev (by owners) is considered to be an appliance, a white good. OK I called it dull but same difference.
Where are the fun EV's? The drivers cars? The fiesta St of the ev world that can bring a smile to your face on the twisties? Yes they're
quick in a straight line but where's the joy in that.
Until that changes (I doubt it ever will due to one key fact, weight) I just don't see me wanting one. I'm a car enthusiast, it's a
hobby (shock horror as a member of this site) I enjoy the noise, the smell, the oily bits, the sensation of peddling a car through the gears, the
vibrations. None of which exist in an EV.
And even the costs just don't add up. To sell my bought and paid for daily it would take countless years to recoup the cost in fuel and tax
savings. I've been a pch'er in the past but the deals are worsening and even to the point where the devil's own pcp aren't
that far away. I also do chuckle at the 'No servicing' comments. The ev still needs tyres, suspension and brakes etc. All of which I
suspect will wear out at a slightly quicker rate again due to weight, OK possibly not brakes if regenerative braking. Also all the fancy electronics
are going to start to fail at some point. Who's going to be able to fix them and at what cost?
For those who see the car as a 'thing' to get them a to b, an ev must be great.
For those who consider their car a hobby or pride and joy, I just can't ever seeing the ev taking that role.
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HowardB
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| posted on 13/10/21 at 07:46 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
I find the EV is the same. We're going on trips every weekend we'd never have done because of the cost of petrol. I'm just going off
for drives in the countryside sightseeing, just for the hell of it
I once offered this up as part of the law of unintended consequences - cheap travel from the EV and the perception that it is green travel will result
in more people making more journeys and more shorter trips - just to pop out, or for the hell of it.
The zeroth law of the green revolution is don't (use/buy) before the subsequent re-use and then recycle.
I expect that there will be a significant cultural change as the EV moves from an owner use appliance to the shared use or PAYGO model.
Good to see some interesting points raised here
Howard
Fisher Fury was 2000 Zetec - now a 1600 (it Lives again  and goes zoom)
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Sanzomat
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| posted on 13/10/21 at 07:59 PM |
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I actually think that us lot who drive kit cars are the ideal target audience for EV's as our dailies. Certainly for me I didn't have a
problem having a Prius as my company car as that was basically a tool for getting from A to B. A few years later an ordinary plain vanilla EV would be
similar. When making journeys with the family it is still basically a tool/appliance but whenever I want to drive for pleasure I roll out one of the
kit cars and get the pure analogue driving experience. It must be much harder for those poor souls who only have the one vehicle that has to fulfil
all driving needs.
I also use that argument to justify doing track days from an environmental point of view. By having a separate track car (and one made out of recycled
scrap parts at that and one that is fast by virtue of being light, not by having a huge powerful engine) I'm happy to have a much more basic
economical car for the vast majority of my driving. If I didn't have a kit car I'd probably want to drive something fast/fancy and no
doubt much less environmentally friendly every day. Okay, I doubt Greta would buy that argument but it makes me feel better!
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HowardB
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| posted on 13/10/21 at 08:02 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Sanzomat
I also use that argument to justify doing track days from an environmental point of view. By having a separate track car (and one made out of recycled
scrap parts at that and one that is fast by virtue of being light, not by having a huge powerful engine) I'm happy to have a much more basic
economical car for the vast majority of my driving. If I didn't have a kit car I'd probably want to drive something fast/fancy and no
doubt much less environmentally friendly every day. Okay, I doubt Greta would buy that argument but it makes me feel better!
I agree - that works for me
Howard
Fisher Fury was 2000 Zetec - now a 1600 (it Lives again and goes zoom)
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 13/10/21 at 10:45 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
I don't know, its a long time since I've enjoyed driving a car so much and I don't think a car has to be fast and noisy to be fun.
When I was a teenager I'd had a few very thirsty cars, low 20's or less and going for a drive simply meant burning money. It was a real
put off for wanting to use them. However I got a 1.1 Fiesta which meant suddenly I was getting over 55 mpg, I drove and drove that thing everywhere,
till someone crashed into it
I find the EV is the same. We're going on trips every weekend we'd never have done because of the cost of petrol. I'm just going off
for drives in the countryside sightseeing, just for the hell of it
Because I don't throw cash into the PCP fire, I can happily afford to burn it in cylinders all I like. Certainly would not be the case if I
did.
I love my diesel estate, 60mpg and fun to drive. And worth 600 quid.
[Edited on 13/10/21 by coyoteboy]
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 14/10/21 at 07:14 AM |
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I don't have a PCP thing on the car either, it's just a normal loan.
There seems to be several topics being discussed in this one post (as usual for this forum...)
1) Are EV's limited to 80 miles range - no that's just daft
2) Are EV's useful with their current range - yes perfectly practical but depends on personal circumstance
3) Are EV's too expensive to justify buying them compared to an ICE - depends on personal circumstances, how much money people are willing to
pay for a car anyway, second hand they are much the same cost which is why I have one. Their new tech so that is always more expensive, it's
expected they will reduce in price as they gain a footing.
4) Is it better to run an old car than to buy a new one - depends on personal circumstances, all new cars depreciate very fast so its always been a
personal preference for people who do that they're happy to foot the cost for having something new. This does not only apply to EV's or
cars but everything.
5) Are EV's fun to drive - Yes actually, quite a lot of fun, their fast, smooth, wheel spin like crazy and sound like a jet car certainly
gets me smiling 
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sdh2903
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| posted on 14/10/21 at 09:11 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
1) Are EV's limited to 80 miles range - no that's just daft
Actually not so daft. For those looking at buying a cheaper car, i.e older, there are countless used cars for sale that clearly state a range of less
than 80 miles. Even cars at only 6 or 7 years old with less than 40k on them.
Yes if you can afford to splash the cash on a new(er) ev then yes it's probably daft.
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 14/10/21 at 10:23 AM |
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The op -
"In a recent TV programme, Guy stated that EVs were no good for journeys more than 80 miles or so, and only in cities... "
A daft sweeping statement, rather like saying cars are no good for speeds over 150mph
If Guy Martin did in fact say this and it wasn't taken out of context, then I'd say he probably has very little experience with EV's
and really should not be commenting at all.
It's also daft in that it does not take into account you can simply rapid recharge your car, like that's not a thing and filling your car
up is only available to ICE cars.
Just to clarify, my 4 year old Leaf was £11.000, with just 16k miles on it and has a range of 120 miles (I have got 140 miles out it and sometimes a
lot less depending on what I'm doing with it). As far as car prices go, that really isn't very expensive. So the claim that practical
EV's are not affordable doesn't wash with me. Sorry.
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russbost
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| posted on 14/10/21 at 11:07 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by sdh2903
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
1) Are EV's limited to 80 miles range - no that's just daft
Actually not so daft. For those looking at buying a cheaper car, i.e older, there are countless used cars for sale that clearly state a range of less
than 80 miles. Even cars at only 6 or 7 years old with less than 40k on them.
Yes if you can afford to splash the cash on a new(er) ev then yes it's probably daft.
At that age & mileage for any "real" EV, not something like the Twizzy that hasn't got over an 80 mile range has got something
significantly wrong with it - that's a bit like saying an ICE engine that's bust a cambelt & had it replaced with half the valves
still bent is the equivalent of one that's been properly maintained!
Also I believe the comment by Guy Martin (or more likely the scriptwriters) was referring to modern EV's & about the lowest mileage for
anything current I can think of is the new Mazda, which is around 120 miles, but is significantly cheaper than pretty much everything else & is
specifically designed as a city car
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
|
NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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sdh2903
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| posted on 14/10/21 at 11:18 AM |
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I think you'd be surprised, I was. Just 2 I looked at randomly.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2015-White-Nissan-Leaf-Tekna-24kw-Low-Milage-/393538221988?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&
;mkrid=710-127635-2958-0
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2011-Nissan-LEAF-24kwh-Very-Low-Mileage-Extensive-Nissan-History-BATTERY-OWNED-/294454059975?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&
_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 14/10/21 at 11:25 AM |
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Mr Whippy - you talk a lot of sense.
There are lots of people around who would be very happy with a second-hand EV that gives a range of around 100 miles - my wife, for example. Your
Leaf is also a good car - the early models being far better than the latest efforts.
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Benzine
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| posted on 14/10/21 at 01:12 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by sdh2903
I think you'd be surprised, I was. Just 2 I looked at randomly.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2015-White-Nissan-Leaf-Tekna-24kw-Low-Milage-/393538221988?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&
;mkrid=710-127635-2958-0
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2011-Nissan-LEAF-24kwh-Very-Low-Mileage-Extensive-Nissan-History-BATTERY-OWNED-/294454059975?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&
_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0
I'd stay away from the 2nd one. Way overpriced and it's pre 2014 so the batteries aren't very good compared to later Leafs.
[Edited on 14-10-2021 by Benzine]
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russbost
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| posted on 14/10/21 at 01:12 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by sdh2903
I think you'd be surprised, I was. Just 2 I looked at randomly.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2015-White-Nissan-Leaf-Tekna-24kw-Low-Milage-/393538221988?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&
;mkrid=710-127635-2958-0
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2011-Nissan-LEAF-24kwh-Very-Low-Mileage-Extensive-Nissan-History-BATTERY-OWNED-/294454059975?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&
_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0
I didn't say there weren't any out there, I said there was something wrong with them, the early Leaf was never a great car in terms of
mileage, but in fairness was pretty much entry level. With a 24kWh battery you'd expect over 100 miles if not using lots of "extras"
(I think Nissan gave 160 miles as top range?) so the 2015 car has had some abuse of the batteries I would imagine, the 2nd one you've linked to
is 10 years old , so completely irrelevant I would also add that if you want an automatic car then that 2015 Leaf represents something of a bargain,
if you put car into Ebay & tick the under 25,000 mile box, 2015 & automatic there only 2 other autos that aren't CAT N or S that come
up, one is a Nissan Micra & the other a Peugeot 108, hardly comparable vehicles - so you've picked the absolute bargain basement of
EV's!
In terms of EV evolution cf ICE, comparing an early Leaf to what's on the market today is a bit like taking the Morris Minor as an example of a
typical ICE car & saying "they're crap, 0 - 60 takes nearly 20 seconds, top speed is around 80mph & fuel consumption is pretty
pants too!"
With odd "city car" exceptions even the cheaper end of the EV market like the MG, Leaf, Zoe etc has a range of around 200 miles, to
pretend that current EV's are good for only 80 miles is quite frankly both childish & completely misleading & very poor for a program of
the calibre that Guy Martin usually works to
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
|
NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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SJ
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| posted on 14/10/21 at 01:15 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by David Jenkins
Mr Whippy - you talk a lot of sense.
There are lots of people around who would be very happy with a second-hand EV that gives a range of around 100 miles - my wife, for example. Your
Leaf is also a good car - the early models being far better than the latest efforts.
I agree - Would be a perfect second car for us. There would be no point swapping our 2016 Swift for one though given the swift will no doubt continue
doing what it does for the next 10 years with minimal maintenance and not much petrol. Filling up with petrol once every couple of months is also
significantly less hassle than plugging in regularly at home.
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Sanzomat
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| posted on 14/10/21 at 02:15 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by russbost
With a 24kWh battery you'd expect over 100 miles if not using lots of "extras" (I think Nissan gave 160 miles as top
range?)
Reading that made me think - 24kwh stated capacity (new) means actual useable probably 22kwh. So to get 100 miles it would need to achieve 4.54 miles
per kwh. Doable with care (green car guide says 4.4miles per kwh if you are careful) but 160 miles would need 7.27 miles per kwh which is never going
to happen. I googled it and most EV car guides say the real world range for a 24kwh leaf, 2011 to 2015, was 80 miles when new and several guides
suggest that this would reduce to 80% of that after 5 years. The 24kwh version was the entry level model and was never claimed to be a massive range
car.
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 14/10/21 at 03:29 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by SJ
I agree - Would be a perfect second car for us. There would be no point swapping our 2016 Swift for one though given the swift will no doubt continue
doing what it does for the next 10 years with minimal maintenance and not much petrol. Filling up with petrol once every couple of months is also
significantly less hassle than plugging in regularly at home.
We're in a similar position - my wife has a 2015 Citroen C1 that is working OK just now, and she only does 3 - 4 thousand miles per year. It
has a dubious service history and may need replacing in a year or two, at which point we'll probably get a second EV. However it's
working at the moment, and she likes driving it, so there's no rush to replace it. She does want an EV though...
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SJ
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| posted on 14/10/21 at 04:08 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by David Jenkins
quote:
Originally posted by SJ
I agree - Would be a perfect second car for us. There would be no point swapping our 2016 Swift for one though given the swift will no doubt continue
doing what it does for the next 10 years with minimal maintenance and not much petrol. Filling up with petrol once every couple of months is also
significantly less hassle than plugging in regularly at home.
We're in a similar position - my wife has a 2015 Citroen C1 that is working OK just now, and she only does 3 - 4 thousand miles per year. It
has a dubious service history and may need replacing in a year or two, at which point we'll probably get a second EV. However it's
working at the moment, and she likes driving it, so there's no rush to replace it. She does want an EV though...
I bought the swift a year old pre- registered with 24 miles and my wife does similar mileage so it's been serviced every year after a couple of
thousand miles and will no doubt go on for ever! My wife loved the Prius I had as a company car a few years ago because it was super easy to drive so
no doubt she would also love a full EV for the same reason.
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 14/10/21 at 04:17 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
4) Is it better to run an old car than to buy a new one - depends on personal circumstances, all new cars depreciate very fast so its always been a
personal preference for people who do that they're happy to foot the cost for having something new. This does not only apply to EV's or
cars but everything.
Sort of, the choice for old EVs is massively limited in terms of type, range and spec. So as someone wanting to buy an older EV with long range and
large size, I can't because they didn't exist 5 years ago, apart from maybe a model X which sort of blurs a few boundaries - which is a
"luxury" item and way outside the cost of a similarly sized and spec'd ICE car of the same year. But other than that, agreed.
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SJ
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| posted on 16/10/21 at 03:26 PM |
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On a related topic it surprises me the government are allowing what amount to electric mopeds to be used free of tax, insurance & MOT. I'm
not complaining as I think things are regulated far too much but I really don't see something like a velosolex, which is basically a pushbike
with an engine should be any different to a modern e bike.
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