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re-engineered classic's

franky - 2/10/11 at 03:42 PM

Looking to what I might do as a long term project to have alongside a kit I half fancy taking on a classic.

Something like a Triumph gt6 with modern running gear or if I could afford it a Datsun 240z. Has anyone done something like this? Having an open top 7 for sunny days and a 2dr coupe for the not so sunny days.

Part of the plan is to teach myself proper bodywork/repair skills then paint myself.

A bmw 328 in a gt6 chassis should be a good useable car if I could bring the rest of the running gear upto spec. A m3 lump in a 240z would be a money pit but they look so bloody good!

Does anyone know of any good build threads for something like the above?

scootz - 2/10/11 at 03:45 PM

GT6... with IRS and an M3 6-cyl engine!

There you go... crack on!

franky - 2/10/11 at 03:55 PM

quote:
Originally posted by scootz
GT6... with IRS and an M3 6-cyl engine!

There you go... crack on!

An m3 might twist the chassis a little too much. A 328 lump is an easy 220bhp and cheap as chips to buy

sdh2903 - 2/10/11 at 04:00 PM

This has crossed my mind too. A friend of the family has offered me a triumph spitfire for not much money, but its been sat for ages. I fancied a zetec transplant, shouldn't be too tricky.

however it would have to be a complete back to bare metal resto/rebuild and I just dont think I could commit to it at present.

150 bhp in a light-ish classic drop top would be pretty fun tho

Bare - 2/10/11 at 04:01 PM

I'd be giving a few second thoughts to using a GT6 for anything even driving it as it came from the factory. Having ownede a brand new one.. back then. These were truly Excrable excuses for a Car.
The handling was just Piss Poor.. period most anything beyond shopping duties and it was simply dangerous.

Yes some raced these.. but the level of modification required almost amounted to a new chassis fitted with a lightened GT6 body shell.
There is genuine reason Triumph is loooong dead.

[Edited on 2/10/11 by Bare]

Mark Allanson - 2/10/11 at 04:03 PM

I thought I had seen a http://www.triumphspitfirelemans.com/phdi/p1.nsf/supppages/3409?opendocument&part=3 kit

[Edited on 2/10/11 by Mark Allanson]

franky - 2/10/11 at 04:11 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Bare
I'd be giving a few second thoughts to using a GT6 for anything even driving it as it came from the factory. Having ownede a brand new one.. back then. These were truly Excrable excuses for a Car.
The handling was just Piss Poor.. period most anything beyond shopping duties and it was simply dangerous.

Yes some raced these.. but the level of modification required almost amounted to a new chassis fitted with a lightened GT6 body shell.
There is genuine reason Triumph is loooong dead.

[Edited on 2/10/11 by Bare]

The idea would be to convert to IRS which should go a lot of the way to sorting this. The 240z's are IRS but as they're a 'real classic' I wouldn't really want to cut one around too much, also panels are expensive to buy.

T66 - 2/10/11 at 04:12 PM

Read an article, maybe PPC - Did a Nissan 200 into a GT6 or Spitfire.

franky - 2/10/11 at 04:52 PM

quote:
Originally posted by T66
Read an article, maybe PPC - Did a Nissan 200 into a GT6 or Spitfire.

I've been told that, its not in any of my old mags and can't find any info on line though.

spiderman - 2/10/11 at 04:54 PM

Hi Franky,
I have a dismantled GT6 MK2 with a pretty solid body which I was going to put my Cosworth Turbo in or a BMW straight 6.
I have since bought a complete GT6 with mot so the project is possibly for sale if you are interested send me a u2u and I will let you know a bit more about it.
I have some pictures and details of more modern rear end (sierra) and different motors. I will try and load them into my photo archive for you to look at.

[Edited on 2/10/11 by spiderman]

Volvorsport - 2/10/11 at 07:01 PM

a gt6 makes sense to me aswell , perfect for some good ole redblock turbo and back axle , maybe even a 6 .

MikeRJ - 2/10/11 at 07:35 PM

quote:
Originally posted by franky
The idea would be to convert to IRS which should go a lot of the way to sorting this. The 240z's are IRS but as they're a 'real classic' I wouldn't really want to cut one around too much, also panels are expensive to buy.

That means it would need IVA as well

franky - 2/10/11 at 08:09 PM

quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ

quote:
Originally posted by franky
The idea would be to convert to IRS which should go a lot of the way to sorting this. The 240z's are IRS but as they're a 'real classic' I wouldn't really want to cut one around too much, also panels are expensive to buy.

That means it would need IVA as well

IVA doesn't bother me(except the cost) but why would it need it if you're using the original chassis+body? An IRS rear end from pics i've seen on one is just a welded on frame to the chassis.

cliftyhanger - 2/10/11 at 08:11 PM

^^^^Why??

FWIW I am building a zetec spitfire, the first one rolled (diesel on the road, bad weather, trying to do 2000 miles in a weekend and getting halfway through. ..........plus a blackspot where the plod attended, and calmly said that 5-6 cars a week went off in the same place. Nothing to do with the suspension)

Anyway, my buld uses the original spit diff, plus CV jointed driveshafts to replace the rubber rotoflexes. Retains transverse leaf spring. It is possible to pop alternative diffs in, Subaru fits

As for hangling, GT6's can handle very well. In fact a gt6-suspensioned spitfire is leading the BRTDA newcomers autosolo challenge this year. Can't be that bad if it is beating all the pugs, citroens and other cars out there

Should also be pointed out that BMW borrowed their IRS design directly from the Triumph saloons. So the company wasn't too shabby, let down by BL really.

britishtrident - 2/10/11 at 08:13 PM

A lot of Lotus Plus2 have been given a Zetec and Sierra based rear end selling the original engine, box diff and suspension just about pays for the car.

[Edited on 2/10/11 by britishtrident]

Benzine - 2/10/11 at 08:15 PM

quote:
Originally posted by franky
Does anyone know of any good build threads for something like the above?

retro rides 'readers rides' section of the forum is a good place for such things. There's a diesel scimitar on there, and my turbo diesel volvo amazon (not actually got the engine in yet, tackling the rust first!) you'll find loads of old cars with different engines in

franky - 2/10/11 at 08:18 PM

quote:
Originally posted by cliftyhanger
^^^^Why??

FWIW I am building a zetec spitfire, the first one rolled (diesel on the road, bad weather, trying to do 2000 miles in a weekend and getting halfway through. ..........plus a blackspot where the plod attended, and calmly said that 5-6 cars a week went off in the same place. Nothing to do with the suspension)

Anyway, my buld uses the original spit diff, plus CV jointed driveshafts to replace the rubber rotoflexes. Retains transverse leaf spring. It is possible to pop alternative diffs in, Subaru fits

As for hangling, GT6's can handle very well. In fact a gt6-suspensioned spitfire is leading the BRTDA newcomers autosolo challenge this year. Can't be that bad if it is beating all the pugs, citroens and other cars out there

Should also be pointed out that BMW borrowed their IRS design directly from the Triumph saloons. So the company wasn't too shabby, let down by BL really.

I fancied doing it as an exercise really. What have been done to the back end to get them upto scratch?

britishtrident - 2/10/11 at 08:34 PM

quote:
Originally posted by cliftyhanger
snip
Should also be pointed out that BMW borrowed their IRS design directly from the Triumph saloons. So the company wasn't too shabby, let down by BL really.

Thats the trouble with getting info from one make forums BMW were using semi-trailing arms a whole ten years before Triumph.

Like swing axles the semi-trailing arm suspension can be made to work very well in dry conditions but in the wet they are prone to very sudden breakaway.

Semi trailing arms also require a quite lot of static toe-in to prevent the wheels going into toe -out on bump, this results excessive tyre wear and over heating of the outer edges which was encountered as problem on 1960s/1970s Triumph 2000/2500 Police vehicles.

cliftyhanger - 2/10/11 at 08:50 PM

Hmm, not sure about the grip issues with the saloons. They are remarkably sure-footed cars in all conditions.
So did BMW have the IRS system sorted back in the early 50's? That is news to me!

britishtrident - 2/10/11 at 09:41 PM

Not a grip issue a handling issue the problem was very sudden breakaway in the wet.

As for BMW having "it sorted" they didn't the 3 and 5 series needed careful handling in the wet until they went over to the Z axle across the range. The Sierra could also be a bit whoopsy in the wet.

[Edited on 2/10/11 by britishtrident]

alistairolsen - 3/10/11 at 06:37 AM

Id be using a complete donor floorpan and just fitting the shell. The only good thing about old cars is their appearance if we're all being honest!

The only problem is you will end up with a Q plate doing that.

Benzine - 3/10/11 at 10:18 AM

quote:
Originally posted by alistairolsenThe only good thing about old cars is their appearance if we're all being honest!

and classic insurance, character, sound, possible free road tax, very easy to work on (both in terms of simplicity and in terms of space e.g. room to get to components in the engine bay with greater ease), very few annoying acronyms (MAF, IAC, SIPS, ABS) they can GTFO IMHO, takes fewer resources to keep an old car on the road than to make a new one, less/no depreciation...

alistairolsen - 3/10/11 at 10:45 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Benzine

quote:
Originally posted by alistairolsenThe only good thing about old cars is their appearance if we're all being honest!

and classic insurance, character, sound, possible free road tax, very easy to work on (both in terms of simplicity and in terms of space e.g. room to get to components in the engine bay with greater ease), very few annoying acronyms (MAF, IAC, SIPS, ABS) they can GTFO IMHO, takes fewer resources to keep an old car on the road than to make a new one, less/no depreciation...

Ok, first of all, from a daily driver point of view Id never buy a new car, and Im not promoting new cars.

As a weekend toy, even the cars id want to use are relatively old, but Id rather have, for instance, an opel manta on an E36 M3 floorpan, then an actual manta, with its clarty live axle and poor choice of 80s 8v engines. Neither will suffer depreciation.

In terms of working on them, personally Modern cars with well thought out removal routes such as the BMW are nicer to live with than something that just has lots of wasted space and will require significantly fewer maintenance operations!

Acronyms are there, feel free to use the full names, but from these sensors comes a cold starting, idle and limphome ability which cannot be matched by carburettors.

Personally, I love the look of old cars, but would prefer to have modern suspension and engine and gearbox choices. Its just a shame you cannot get an age related plate for the modern donor under points and then fit an older private plate so it all looks right.

r1_pete - 3/10/11 at 11:19 AM

My last project was a zetec in an mgb, if you google zetec mgb my build blog is in the mgbclub online forum, would cut paste a link but just getting to grips with this galaxy 10.1.
I had no mot or taxation/registration problems,it was a 71 built car so also qualified for free road tax, it was a wll worth while project, cheaper than rebuilding the b engine, faster and more drivable to. My advice is go for it, modern running gear in classics can work well.

franky - 3/10/11 at 01:57 PM

The more I think about it a full transplant from a 328 thats had a bump or rotted away into a gt6 makes perfect sense.

They come apart easlily, reliable, powerful, cheap parts etc etc. I could even fit all the donor's electrics and keep cruise control

sdh2903 - 3/10/11 at 03:27 PM

quote:
Originally posted by franky
I could even fit all the donor's electrics and keep cruise control

you really have gone soft...........

franky - 3/10/11 at 07:10 PM

quote:
Originally posted by sdh2903

quote:
Originally posted by franky
I could even fit all the donor's electrics and keep cruise control

you really have gone soft...........

Don't worry a 80bhp progressive nitrous system would be fitted too

spiderman - 3/10/11 at 07:54 PM

Franky have a look on the CLUB TRIUMPH forum and look at "jango GT6 rear end ect" post and also www.spit6.co.uk and click on "Rebuilding and modifiying a MK11 Triumph Spitfire".
I would do a link to these f I knew how but I am sure someone will be kind enough to do it.
I have found Club Triumph and Triumph Torgue sites to be a good source of info for Spitfire and GT6 mods

pewe - 4/10/11 at 10:13 AM

If it hasn't already been stated from Mk2 GT6 the swing rear problems were largely overcome by fitting lower radius arms as standard.
If you decide to go ahead with a GT6 project IMO there are two areas which need addressing :-
1) Rear shock mounts were mounted pretty flimsily to the bodywork and the transverse leaf allowed limited travel - better to think about a coil-over set-up chassis mounted.
2) Given its comparatively lightweight at the rear any engine transplant would be best focussing on lighter weight unit than the existing lump.
The front heavy nature of the original led to some pretty undesirable handling, particularly in the wet - ask my Missus how she knows - twice!
HTH. Cheers, Pewe

cliftyhanger - 4/10/11 at 10:46 AM

In fact the simpler suspension setup on the late spitfires was a massive improvement over the early cars. Not quite as good as the rotoflex, but lighter.
The cartspring isn't bad really, and there are advantages to simplicity. Like it often gets finished

franky - 4/10/11 at 11:18 AM

A bmw 6pot is lighter than the triumph one, gearbox is loads lighter too, I'd be confident about getting it further back in the engine bay too. Rear end would be a full IRS conversion. Maybe with a full cage that mounts to all the suspension pickup points.

Its easy to see how projects can get completely out of hand

cliftyhanger - 4/10/11 at 11:40 AM

Be careful. Fitting a zetec need a fair bit of metal removal to the tub, and a bit of chassis trimming. There isn't a lot of space between the chassis rails I find the exhaust is always a struggle. Unless you go under the floor.
On the plus side, the front suspension is pretty handy. But have a look at th emodified ones out there, especially, dare I say it, the American ones with V8's . Give you a few ideas about what can be done.
But also bar in mind it is best to avoid serious chassis work unless you fancy IVA. And that would be rather difficult.

alistairolsen - 4/10/11 at 11:46 AM

Original build thread is dead but:

http://buildthreads.wordpress.com/2009/07/28/opel-kadett-s2000/

John Bonnett - 4/10/11 at 04:23 PM

quote:
Originally posted by franky
A bmw 6pot is lighter than the triumph one, gearbox is loads lighter too, I'd be confident about getting it further back in the engine bay too. Rear end would be a full IRS conversion. Maybe with a full cage that mounts to all the suspension pickup points.

Its easy to see how projects can get completely out of hand

It might be worth taking a few measurements before you commit yourself. You might find the gear lever emerges behind the seat!

Franky U2U sent

[Edited on 4/10/11 by John Bonnett]

[Edited on 4/10/11 by John Bonnett]

franky - 4/10/11 at 05:40 PM

Many thanks for that, the bmw box's are very very short to suit the whole model range, it seems they use longer or shorter shift rods to suit.

John Bonnett - 4/10/11 at 07:25 PM

Franky please keep me posted as I am very interested in this. There are great attractions in having a classic car fitted with modern clockwork.

For us special builders converting to a decent wishbone rear suspension system shouldn't be too much of a problem. A Scoobie diff has been fitted quite successfully in place of the weak Triumph unit so it all looks very promising; particularly if the sound of a small six on song can be retained.

regards

John

britishtrident - 4/10/11 at 07:26 PM

quote:
Originally posted by franky

quote:
Originally posted by Bare
I'd be giving a few second thoughts to using a GT6 for anything even driving it as it came from the factory. Having ownede a brand new one.. back then. These were truly Excrable excuses for a Car.
The handling was just Piss Poor.. period most anything beyond shopping duties and it was simply dangerous.

Yes some raced these.. but the level of modification required almost amounted to a new chassis fitted with a lightened GT6 body shell.
There is genuine reason Triumph is loooong dead.

[Edited on 2/10/11 by Bare]

The idea would be to convert to IRS which should go a lot of the way to sorting this. The 240z's are IRS but as they're a 'real classic' I wouldn't really want to cut one around too much, also panels are expensive to buy.

Don't believe everything you read about classic cars 240z weren't even rust buckets they corroded at a truly amazing rate even by late 1960's early 1970's standards they were way out in front in the water solubility league, I jest not they rust everywhere, --- lovely smooth free revving engine shame about the rust and cheap tacky interior trim.

britishtrident - 4/10/11 at 07:31 PM

quote:
Originally posted by cliftyhanger
In fact the simpler suspension setup on the late spitfires was a massive improvement over the early cars. Not quite as good as the rotoflex, but lighter.
The cartspring isn't bad really, and there are advantages to simplicity. Like it often gets finished

Yes just reversing the top leaf of the spring made an amazing difference, the key to swing axle handling is low roll centre.

franky - 4/10/11 at 07:32 PM

quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident

quote:
Originally posted by franky

quote:
Originally posted by Bare
I'd be giving a few second thoughts to using a GT6 for anything even driving it as it came from the factory. Having ownede a brand new one.. back then. These were truly Excrable excuses for a Car.
The handling was just Piss Poor.. period most anything beyond shopping duties and it was simply dangerous.

Yes some raced these.. but the level of modification required almost amounted to a new chassis fitted with a lightened GT6 body shell.
There is genuine reason Triumph is loooong dead.

[Edited on 2/10/11 by Bare]

The idea would be to convert to IRS which should go a lot of the way to sorting this. The 240z's are IRS but as they're a 'real classic' I wouldn't really want to cut one around too much, also panels are expensive to buy.

Don't believe everything you read about classic cars 240z weren't even rust buckets they corroded at a truly amazing rate even by late 1960's early 1970's standards they were way out in front in the water solubility league, I jest not they rust everywhere, --- lovely smooth free revving engine shame about the rust and cheap tacky interior trim.

I know they rust from the inside out, the problem is that replacement panels aren't available here in the UK. I have found someone that imports cars from some dry states in the USA.

franky - 4/10/11 at 07:36 PM

quote:
Originally posted by John Bonnett
Franky please keep me posted as I am very interested in this. There are great attractions in having a classic car fitted with modern clockwork.

For us special builders converting to a decent wishbone rear suspension system shouldn't be too much of a problem. A Scoobie diff has been fitted quite successfully in place of the weak Triumph unit so it all looks very promising; particularly if the sound of a small six on song can be retained.

regards

John

Will do but i'm just running through the maths on what it might cost.

It will be bmw 328 engined though as I know how to run them on the standard ecu, standard manifolds tuck under the engine. Also i've a 3.15 ratio bmw diff sat in my garage too. It'd be interesting to see if I could keep the 328's brakes too.

While keeping a 6cyl sound.

John Bonnett - 4/10/11 at 08:45 PM

I have just come across this; Cosworth V6/ BMW diff into GT6. It looks a fairly radical job and rather more than I'd want to undertake. I'd prefer to keep the outside of the car as standard. I think Hot rodders call them "Sleepers"

http://www.britishv8.org/Triumph/GeraldKannenberg.htm

Too heavy I would have thought but it proves that it can be done. The GT6 engine I believe weighs 400lbs so if the BM engine is substantially lighter than that, the car's handling would be transformed.

Rear suspension looks interesting but again some radical work has been done.

I am currently rebuilding a MK3 GT6 hence my interest.

Description

[Edited on 4/10/11 by John Bonnett]

franky - 4/10/11 at 09:03 PM

a 328 engine/box/bell housing full of fluids should come in at about 220kg complete.