Pond Life Coppers
Just been stopped by a F*****g traffic copper on the M53 for using a mobile phone while driving, daft bastards mate had to remove it from my bag, now who in therir right frame of mind uses a phone then puts it in their bag, offered me a fixed penalty and 3 points or a day in court, chose the day in court, offered to show him call log but he declined, choosing to say him and his mate saw me on a black phone, changed it to a silver one when he saw the F*****g thing. complete and utter waste of my time and money but I'm going to fight it. phone was in me bag on passengers seat why in the name of god would I take it out with my left hand then use it with my right.
Oh forgot to mention they even breathalized me even though I'd just finished 6 hours behind the wheel of a wagon

[Edited on 15/2/10 by mad-butcher]
Rescued attachment Phone.JPG

Did they go through the whole rigmarole of what network, taking your number and immediately ringing you on it etc?

Get the call log from your network provider today - someone on here had the same problem, and the network wouldn't give him the information after a certain amount of time.

Did you get the copper's shoulder number?

Absolute scumbags!! Speak to your mobile phone provider to see if they can provide written evidence to show that you neither made or received calls, and if you can then find as many people to look at your call log as possible today (ideally a solicitor).

Also, ring the local cop shop and ask for the number for the IPCC (Independent Police Complaints Commission) and get it registered as a formal complaint. They have to investigate it (although wont decide the outcome till after the court date) but get the pressure onto this early.

A guy I know got done just for looking at his phone. I think the offence is not actually being on a call so to speak. It is actually that they saw him looking at a message (which he admits) - He was stationary in a long queue of traffic on the motorway, his phone bleeped, he picked it up to see what it was beeping for and they clocked him from an adjacent unmarked car.

So they can stick you on just for looking at the phone. Dont take this as fact, but if it is the case and they insist you had it in your hand, then no call log would help in a defence. I guess you need to clarify what the actual offence of using a mobile device is.

I had a similar incident a few years back. My advice (in retrospect) is do what everyone else has said and try to get the records from your mobile provider. Also, once calmer (I know the feeling only too well), write down a written statement of events, sign/date it, and get a third party to also sign and date it as a witness.

When I went to court the statements the officers made were all over the place, as they were made from scribbled notes in their notepads, and weren't even made at the time of the alleged offence, but a day or two later. I submitted a copy of my statement of events in court to contra the prosecutors's case (CPS), but as painful as it seems, the Police Officers' statements will always be more weighted than your own.

My advice is prepare yourself for the worst - you'll prob get £60 fine, three points, £15 victims fund contribution cost, and Court costs of maybe up to a few hundred pounds. So unless you're 110% positive in a win, please don't hold much hope.

quote:

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Originally posted by karlak
A guy I know got done just for looking at his phone. I think the offence is not actually being on a call so to speak. It is actually that they saw him looking at a message (which he admits) - He was stationary in a long queue of traffic on the motorway, his phone bleeped, he picked it up to see what it was beeping for and they clocked him from an adjacent unmarked car.

So they can stick you on just for looking at the phone. Dont take this as fact, but if it is the case and they insist you had it in your hand, then no call log would help in a defence. I guess you need to clarify what the actual offence of using a mobile device is.

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If you weren't using your phone fight it.

However if you were using your phone --- no sympathy.

[Edited on 15/2/10 by britishtrident]

As already said, get in touch with your network provider and get them to send you a call log straight away. I assume you have evidence of what time you were pulled over. So that coupled with a call log should be more than sufficient.

The issue with the CU80 offence, as my missus found out, is that although "using" a phone to you or I tends to be fairly clear cut, "using" in the context of this particular law seems to be more than a little subjective. You can "use" your phone as a clock for example, you can "use" it for stress relief by twiddling it in your hand.
In other words, having the call log does not prove innocence as both coppers just have to say that they saw you holding your mobile phone

Guilty till proven innocent and unable to readily prove innocence as usual with motoring convictions.

You're fuct.

Get the phone records and they'll probably say you were using a 2nd phone.

They won't change their statement.

Oh, and to add insult to injury, missus' insurance company declined to invite renewal on her policy due to the CU80. Technically she has now also been refused insurance
Apparently there are more and more insurers declining to quote if you have a CU80

" I saw the Person driving with siliver a phone in Hand"


How far away were you

"20ft"

Could you be sure it was a phone and not a soft drink can"


" Well Ere em er"....

Surely at 20 - 30ft and travling at speed any silver item could be mistaken for a phone. DOn;t they have to prove you were using the phone as is prove guilty

Is it an Iphone? Say it was an Ipod and you maybe lucky. I dont actually know, just stabbing in the dark!! I hate the stupid driving laws.
Again its the odd idiot that made a mistake when driving that got blamed becasue they were on the phone thats has caused this law to be passed.
Its the same as speeding. Everybody speeds so everybody can ge blaimed for speeding when they have an accident irrelavent if it was speed and not rubbish driving that caused the accident. Alittle OT but I feel better now!

Why would he say it was an iPod if he didnt have anything to his ear?? May as well just plead guilty if trying to make up stories like that as by using anything you'd be admitting to not being in proper control of a vehicle (same as eating a choc bar, drink etc).

Really makes my blood boil that cops can make up stories like this seeing as its two cops word against the driver. Bet the cops statement is so vague that if it goes to court he can make up a story to suit - ie bet it wont say he saw Mad-Butcher talking on the phone to get around any produced phone records.

Declined to look at the phone so that there's no proof that the records produced match the phone that he says he saw i bet!!

Could you not argue that every accident has an element of speed in it - if you weren't moving you wouldn't crash! therefore speed is always partly to blame. The issue is people drive at inappropriate speeds. The easy way to deal with this is to have limits and enforce them. If you can figure out a way of dealing this without limits - let the world know now.

As for everyone speeding - i don't think so. I do my best to keep to the speed limits. (Despite the utter pr!ck driving 2ft off my rear all the way to work. If the road was clear and safe to do so i would have pulled over and let him speed off. I didn't as I drive past two schools. I'd much rather he hits me when i slam on than doesn't brake at all for a kid. He also didn't bother to overtake on the long straight bit well before a school so had his chance)

Regarding the OP - If you're honestly innocent i'd suggest fighting, but have a strong suspicion that the courts see lots of people trying to argue they're innocent when they're not. Therefore i'd expect you to lose. Read the other posters thread who got done the same if you really are innocent and if you decide to fight it, good luck.

One other thing - just because the guy following me to work was a brain dead stupid moron, doesn't mean all drivers are. The same is true for the police, a few bad apples spoil it for everyone.

p.s. if you didn't have a phone to your face - did you have a drink / something else they could have mistaken?

quote:

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Originally posted by Steve G
Why would he say it was an iPod if he didnt have anything to his ear?? May as well just plead guilty if trying to make up stories like that as by using anything you'd be admitting to not being in proper control of a vehicle (same as eating a choc bar, drink etc).

Really makes my blood boil that cops can make up stories like this seeing as its two cops word against the driver. Bet the cops statement is so vague that if it goes to court he can make up a story to suit - ie bet it wont say he saw Mad-Butcher talking on the phone to get around any produced phone records.

Declined to look at the phone so that there's no proof that the records produced match the phone that he says he saw i bet!!

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Agreed Richard - its covered by a different piece of legislation and can lead to a Careless Driving or Driving Without Due Care and Attention (CD10) charge.......... so why would anyone innocent want to admit guilt to that instead??

CU80 is 3 points
CD10 is 3-9 points

[Edited on 15/2/10 by Steve G]

More and more makes you want one of those in-car camera systems that Nitram has!

Good Luck MadButcher!

Cheers,
James

quote:

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Originally posted by James
More and more makes you want one of those in-car camera systems that Nitram has!

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At least one speeding case has been thrown out of court because the young lads dad had fitted a GPS logging device to keep an eye on his driving.

I feel lots for you. I would be absolutely furious and im also guessing but i think the court have had so many people who were guilty trying to prove innocent and failing so you may get put in that category and its your word against his.

Been advised to plead guilty and take the 3 points.

I'm not going to comment further on this as some people are just venting there own grudges on here but if you genuinely weren't in the wrong mate, have your day in court. It's your entitlement. Forget the nonsense that a coppers statement is always taken above everyone elses. It simply isn't true as I can tell you about of colleagues and myself who have lost cases for not being believed in court.
There are good coppers and bad coppers just as there are equally good and bad doctors, drivers, tradesmen, mechanics etc. etc. They are no different.
If they were in the wrong mate, challenge it. Don't bother making a complaint unless it was about their attitude that was in the wrong, which you may have felt it was in which case go ahead.
For what it's worth, in my force at least we don't have 'ticket targets' or 'arrest' targets anymore either and I know of at least one other force that doesn't have targets either. So there's another myth dispelled!

Description

I think that having recording equipment in car is a great idea and can see no reason why it wouldn't hold up in court, especially if you had a recording of them changing their mind about the colour of the phone.

As said above, if your innocent go for it, if you not tell the truth. If what you said is true I would complain to the IPCC, not that it'll do you any good, last time my dad was crashed into he complained about the investigation and they said they'd be intouch but never were. I don't think all police are crooked but there was alot of it at the time, this happened around the time that Kent police got criminals to confess to unsolved crimes in exchange for something to make the figures look better on paper.

As Mr grumpy and I have discussed before there are good and bad police. Again here IMHO is another example of why i think the system is totally wrong.

Yes you should go to court IF you are not guilty.

No you should not take the points If you are not guilty ( surely this is tantamount to perjuring yourself IMHO)

BUT and here is the rub.
You have already ( and by the majority belief on this thread) been found guilty by 2 people who's word IS more likely than going to be enough to find you guilty. This WILL more than likely result in you having to pay a greater fine and court costs and possibly more points than the 3.
So you roll over and take the lesser fine and no day in court to have your say ( because what is the point ).
You say you have been advised to take the fine ( by who ) is it a solicitor??
If so what does that tell us about being a law abiding citizen?
If 2 policemen know a local criminal and know that they are pretty sure he commited a crime the night before could they both say together that he did it and they saw him???? I think not

THE SYSTEM SUCKS GUYS pure and simple as far as the motorist is concerned.

One last question Mad Butcher

Would you previously have been a helpfull and corteous citizen to the police??

And would you now be of the same opinion??

Again it's the few bad apples that spoil the barrel.

change the system it obviously does not work. IMHO

[Edited on 15/2/10 by omega 24 v6]

cant disagree with any of that. I used to like the police but one pair of bad apples proved its not worth trusting any of them (not worth the risk).

It's a bullying tactic, charge you with more and then offer you a lesser charge if you plead guilty. Similarly with on the spot fine offers. Most people will take them to mitigate the risk of ending up with more and the sheer amount of time wasted in going to court(but thats another issue).

The police are not believed 100% of the time, but TBH once they have given their version of events you're left with little but "that's not what happened"

*bitter rant over*

Don't get me wrong I'm no angel,spent most of my life into bikes, If Iwas to say I was born in 1950 you will get the era and factions that existed in my late teens early 20's. passed my driving test in 1995, prior to that I had driven all sorts of vehicles on a dead mans licence and never had a pull.
in answer to you questions I have always had respect for old school coppers, we had a local beat bobby who if he caught you smoking or drunk under age would give you 3 options. my father was a belt and braces fella 2" wide 1/4" thick solid leather.
the nick: parents come down a get you. you knew the belt was going to come off
He would take you home: a deffo no no a copper taking you home oh how humiliating now you've embarrased mother in front of the neighbours, the curtains are twitching you ain't going to sit down for a week if you're lucky.
A good hiding up the local entry: yes please, bobbies happy he's taught you a lesson and no parents involved.
and believe me we did learn. once went home with 2 cracked ribs and had to tell parents I fell off a push bike cos if father found out what had happened that Feckin belts coming off. got to admit a great childhood and lessons well learnt, my parents always used to say spare the rod and spoil the child.
Police in general are doing the best they can given the mamby pamby laws that exist in this country, the ones that booked me no hard feelings unfortunately being Cheshire Constabulary I beleive have targets to hit.
I now carry my phone switched off in my bag in the boot of my pajero. if I saw them on their roof on the embankment. would I stop get out of my vehicle switch my phone on and make a call.. in all honesty I very much doubt it I recon I could even live with reading that the 2 police officers had died.
would I do the same outside the area certainly not,

tony

if you are innocent, stick to your guns and go to court.


then make complaint about the officer.

with any luck, if thies is a regualr occurnace and htere are other complaints, then that may work in your favour ... or in someone else's favour.

doesn't sound like it's gonna be a win-win situation for you

PS I'll send you a cake with a file inside should it come to that.

oh, gather all the evidnece you can - from phone company and mention the mistake in phone colour and the change of mind.

see if they deny that.

[Edited on 16/2/10 by 02GF74]

Yeah Cheshire police have a reputation... And it wasn't started by me either (having told them several times to look at the list of call-outs from me and the number of times they bothered)

When that Policing Pledge started being advertised, and I managed to stop laughing, I called them to find out what they're doing. I ended up having to go to Parliment just to get the Police to turn up to 999 calls...