Hey guys, wasn't there a small UK company doing a budget priced digital dash?
Something like monsterautotech?
I tried the website, but it was down.....
Were they the guys?...or someone else?
Thanks.
Alan
Alan,
Try (Custom Autotech) You will see from this link that they have jumped into bed with ETB Instruments.
Paul
that seems a lot of money for what it is.......this seems to be the kinda thing that any decent hardware / software person could do without
problems....
are there not a lot more on the market?
atb
steve
Nothing that does half of what the digidash does for about 3 times the money.......
It may be a lot - but if it is then why aren't there lots of other cheaper ones on the market?????
The hardware itself is very cheap to make it's just the development time of the software that costs. I'll get around to building one one
day!
Chris
I remember seeing a dash especialy for kit cars had all the warning lights etc built in looked bloody good as well, but i will be buggered if i can
remember where it was...
Paul,
Thanks, that's who I meant...
Guys,
Yes, agreed...what about something that just has the bare minimum features, for a budget price...?
Although I'm a mechanical design engineer, I'm interested in getting involved if someone wants to develop one?......must be some mechanical
issues to solve?
Following on....what would be the minimum spec.?
Speed
RPM (+warning ?)
Oil pressure + warning
Water temp + warning
Fuel level + warning
Anything else?
I'm obviously thinking US market, but do you guys have SVA specific requirements?
Hi guys
I like the digi dash but i don`t understand how the rev counter would work?
Jasper can you enlighten me as i am thinking of like you getting one.
cheers
Sting
[Edited on 3/5/03 by sting]
i had digi dash No 00002, its still in running with no probs at all, the rev counter is "numeric" for want of a better word, or in my case
reads 12600 then the limiter kicks in, to get the same spec from "stack" or the likes its nearer 2k.
lap timer.
0-60 timer
gear indicator
oil press
oil temp
water temp
fuel level
7 stage shift lights
speed
oddometer
warnings on all channels
Main beam
Fog
nutrual
indicator
ign
2 spare
data logging soft ware to hook up to pc....
ok, if you know what your doing it can be done cheaper i'm sure, but for £500 i could not get near it......
oh they now hook up to GPS too......
The stack systen is not realy ment for the road and costs a lot more because there is a lot more in it..
incuding the usuel stuff speed, revs, etc then you have all the data logging side of things like steering wheel movement, long and lat G force, pedal
movement, suspension travel and an array of sensors that makes the enterprise look tame.
I am not knocking the digi dash by any means but to compare the two on price alone is a bit unfair.
quote:
Originally posted by Alan B
Paul,
Thanks, that's who I meant...
Guys,
Yes, agreed...what about something that just has the bare minimum features, for a budget price...?
Although I'm a mechanical design engineer, I'm interested in getting involved if someone wants to develop one?......must be some mechanical issues to solve?
quote:
Originally posted by Alan B
Following on....what would be the minimum spec.?
Speed
RPM (+warning ?)
Oil pressure + warning
Water temp + warning
Fuel level + warning
Anything else?
I'm obviously thinking US market, but do you guys have SVA specific requirements?
Viper all fair points n i know you aint knocking the digi dash.....but the "road" stack version that comes in at over 1k with the dreaded
VAT and all the "add ons" that you need to make it work, don't have half the spec.
the digi dash was originally built for race use by a RGB series racer and does all the things you mention for under 1k with the required upgrades, it
just got hijacked for road use too.
if you compare the two on price and spec in "roadgoing" form there is only one winner, same if you copare in "race" spec too.
just had a peek at price, basic kit from £895, (ST800)
+ £100 for speed
+ £300 for lap timing
+ the dread'd VAT and it still don't come up to basic digidash spec.
Race spec £2445 +vat (ST8600M) and still falls short of race digidash spec needing "add ons" to get there.
i do agree the Stack looks much nicer though.
quote:
Originally posted by stephen_gusterson
quote:
Originally posted by Alan B
Following on....what would be the minimum spec.?
Speed
RPM (+warning ?)
Oil pressure + warning
Water temp + warning
Fuel level + warning
Anything else?
I'm obviously thinking US market, but do you guys have SVA specific requirements?
Max speed attained
Min 0-60 time attained
Min 0-100 time attained
Rev Limiter
rev limited red and yellow lamps ala F1
Data logging facility to take average speed data into a laptop.
MPG (uses fuel injector pulses)
Instantaneous MPG
Overspeed warning (anti speed cam)
Elapsed time
Elapsed Distance
Time
Temperature
atb
steve
HI guys dont know if you remember the led RMP thread a bit back but based on the interest from that I am now writing the software for a RMP indicator
using LEDS which incorperates RMP limitor and launch control.
if there is further interest the hardware for this device can easily be adapted for a fully customisable dash unit incorperating an LCD display and
some indicator LED's. I have just finished the software for the basic device this weekend and I have already developed a suitable PIC board with
interfacing circuitry.
so if people are interested in more features like those already mentioned in this article then please say and I can build them into the device. Also
if there is someone out there with a rolling road I can build you a super chipped engine computor which would allow you to have customisable 3D engine
mapping to squease that extra BHP form the engine.
it is very easy to calculate the engin RMP from the coil supply from the points/crank sensor
i.e just look for the 9v suply droping to 0v witch happens 8 time a secon at 500 rmp and 133 at 800rmp
But like I say if any one is intrested in more detail u2u me
Hi all
I don’t know if you have read the RMP shift lights thread again but as I said there the RPM change lights system that I finished over the weekend
would be very easy to add the features that you are all talking about in the digital dash thread. And as I have now built the hardware and have the
software I would be interested in collaborating with some other builders if you can tell me what type of instruments you want to be able to use with
the device and how you what the out put to be displayed I can build theas features in to my existing device (aprox £50 or ~ $75). Below are a list of
features from the web site I will tell you what I do for each at present and ask some q’s about thowes I do not consider at present
RPM (+warning ?) + Rev Limiter + rev limited red and yellow lamps ala F1
This is presently monitored, with a LED shift light system, there is also a RPM limiting function as well as launch control.
Temperature + warning
Not presently monitored what time of pressure sender unit would you like supported
Oil pressure + warning
Not presently monitored what time of pressure sender unit would you like supported
Water temp + warning
Not presently monitored what time of pressure sender unit would you like supported
Fuel level + warning
Not presently monitored what time of pressure sender unit would you like supported i.e. seara
Max speed attained
Presently recorded
Min 0-60 time attained
Presently recorded
Min 0-100 time attained
Presently recorded
Overspee warning (anti speed cam)
This is presently implemented
MPG (uses fuel injector pulses) + Instantaneous MPG
Not presently implemented because engine I was building for was not injector based
Elapsed time + Time
Implemented in forms of a real time clock and a stop watch function
Elapsed Distance
Implemented but with a separate weal speed sensor
Data logging facility to take average speed data into a laptop.
all channels could be logged but how long do you want to keep a history of the dater in the device and at what sort of sample rate I would go for
something like say 10 minuet history at 1 second sample rate.
Now how do you want the dater to be displayed i.e. LCD display + LEDs and how do you want to interface with the device as obviously buttons should be
kept to a minimum
The logged data would be extractable form the device using a program written by me and dumping the data in to a CSV (coma separated variables) file
format used by excel for easy graphing and analysis.
[Edited on 6/5/03 by ceebmoj]
How about adding a Lambda sensor and MAP sensor , if these were fitted the data logging facility may be able to be used as an engine tuning device in
place of a rolling road in the case of minor alterations to carbs etc.
Paul.
quote:
Originally posted by ceebmoj
Hi all
I don’t know if you have read the RMP shift lights thread again but as I said there the RPM change lights system that I finished over the weekend would be very easy to add the features that you are all talking about in the digital dash thread. And as I have now built the hardware and have the software I would be interested in collaborating with some other builders if you can tell me what type of instruments you want to be able to use with the device and how you what the out put to be displayed I can build theas features in to my existing device (aprox £50 or ~ $75). Below are a list of features from the web site I will tell you what I do for each at present and ask some q’s about thowes I do not consider at present
Data logging facility to take average speed data into a laptop.
all channels could be logged but how long do you want to keep a history of the dater in the device and at what sort of sample rate I would go for something like say 10 minuet history at 1 second sample rate.
Now how do you want the dater to be displayed i.e. LCD display + LEDs and how do you want to interface with the device as obviously buttons should be kept to a minimum
The logged data would be extractable form the device using a program written by me and dumping the data in to a CSV (coma separated variables) file format used by excel for easy graphing and analysis.
[Edited on 6/5/03 by ceebmoj]
hi it would be quite easy to build it in to a 3d configurable engine mapping device.
However this would need to tuned in to each individual engine. Also the interface to the lambda and MAP sensor may be different from engine to engine
so I would want to have an engine in mined when designing the device unless I was to tack an off the shelf sensor i.e. one that can be obtained
cheaply by all and you where to adjust your exhausts to take the sensor.
Also we are now talking about a ECU (Engine Control unit) I would probably build this as a separate device to the digital dash but allow the two to
communicate over a bus probably CAN.
But basically what I am looking for is a list of features wanted from a digital dash and also a ECU I am presently well on the way to having the dash
finished. And when I have completed that I may work on the ECU however that will depend on the interest on hear.
My idea was not to use the device as an ECU but just to datalog the revs, manifold vacuum, and fuel air ratio to assist in setting up carbs etc.The
idea being to be able to look at the results of a run at set speeds on a graph to se the result of alterations on the road performance.Maybe engine
power could also be computed with a revs against time calculation in a set gear.
Paul.
quote:
Originally posted by ceebmoj
hi it would be quite easy to build it in to a 3d configurable engine mapping device.
However this would need to tuned in to each individual engine. Also the interface to the lambda and MAP sensor may be different from engine to engine so I would want to have an engine in mined when designing the device unless I was to tack an off the shelf sensor i.e. one that can be obtained cheaply by all and you where to adjust your exhausts to take the sensor.
Also we are now talking about a ECU (Engine Control unit) I would probably build this as a separate device to the digital dash but allow the two to communicate over a bus probably CAN.
But basically what I am looking for is a list of features wanted from a digital dash and also a ECU I am presently well on the way to having the dash finished. And when I have completed that I may work on the ECU however that will depend on the interest on hear.
Personally I like the stack unit (ST800) with white display.
The Tacho is very clear and easy to see.
All the data logging that has been mentioned is very nice and useful, but could be done without for a basic system.
Essentials would be;
Speed,
RPM,
Mileage/trip (Odometer),
Water temp,
Oil pressure,
Fuel level,
Brake fluid warning light.
These are what I would consider the basic essentials. Anything after that would be a bonus!
The MPG taken from injector pulse would only be relevant to injected cars obviously, and as a lot of folk do away with the fuel injection for space
reasons, would therefore not really be that useful to everyone.
Would adding a fuel flow meter into fuel line complicate things or not?
This personally would not bother me as I'm using a 4AGE with the injection.
The systems suggested by Alan B and Steve sound ideal.
As ceebmoj suggests it would not really be practical due to variety of engine configurations to add engine management.
A separate computer would be best suited for this.
A fuel injected engine should not drift away from it's setting once done, but I can see the logic for a carb'd engine. However there are
fuel/air mixture ratio sensors available quite cheaply which is all you need.
Just my thoughts!
Terry
Ok so what instrumentation do you guys want supported if you want supported i.e. ford rad temp sender. For other things i.e. throttle position pleas
also recommend a sensor that you would suggest. i.e. for example of throttle position pleas don’t just say potentiometer, recommend something like the
bosh fly by wire throttle peadle (£95 I think). If however if there are a number of you interested in a specific measurement I will also get some
other instrumentation made up. For example if there are a number of you out there who race who are interested in logging your suspension compression I
can make up the software for monitoring the suspension travel for all 4 springs using accelerometers (weight of wiring to each weal + 100g).
Temperature + warning
Oil pressure + warning
Water temp + warning
Fuel level + warning
This is what I have working at present i.e. prototype hardware + software.
RPM + Rev Limiter + change leds + traction control
Speed
Max speed attained
Min 0-60 time attained
Min 0-100 time attained
Over speed warning (anti speed cam)
real time clock and a stop watch function
Elapsed Distance using a separate weal speed sensor i.e. not from box used also for traction control
So out of the eventual the only thing that would also need adding are the following
Fuel level,
Brake fluid warning light.
More of an aesthetics now but I was planning on using an LCD display 2 lines * 20 characters can also be used to represent filled bars e.g. gauges for
displaying the dater + some LEDs does any one else have any preferences hear
Cost of the devices at the moment is looking to be £50 (dependant on the total instruments supported and the type of display used) witch includes the
hardware pc link lead and pc soft ware witch allows you to change the configurable options.
sounds you are racing along with it.
My suggestions:
1. if you are proposing making a full blown fuel injection control system, these things are way more complicated than they seem, having to cope with
lots of variable factors and loads......beware rushing into this!
2. Things like oil pressure sensors and eng temp monitors, I would say could be done in two ways.
a. a simple switch - open or closed and b. a variable sensor, which varies resistance with pressure or temp - in this case why not 'learn'
cold / no oil pressure with engine at reast and idle, and 'hot' / normal pressure when car is at full running temp. you could scale these
as 0 - 100 % and show an over % when it goes past normal limits. There are so many different sensors out there I think you might be pushed to have a
fully calibrated system.
3. A two line LCD might be a bit restrictive. It would keep cost down, but I wonder if it would be better to have something more graphical, and able
to show more than a couple items at a time? Also, LCD units are not always great in full sun as an open topped seven would be. At least using a 2 line
lcd rather than a dot graphics lcd will give better contrast. You could as a minimum go up to a four line character panel - possibly 40 chars long
too.
The problem with character lcds is that they tend to have quite small digits. Some only 5 - 6 mm high. With a graphics panel you can make big numbers
and make them easier to see, but then you have the contrast issues.
Just my ideas,
atb
steve
BTW - beware of all the electrical noise in a car. The cpu module will have lots of wires to it all trying to inject crap into it and it can be quite
tricky maintaining reliability.
[Edited on 6/5/03 by stephen_gusterson]
Steve your suggestions are apreasheated
My suggestions:
1. if you are proposing making a full blown fuel injection control system, these things are way more complicated than they seem, having to cope with
lots of variable factors and loads......beware rushing into this!
This is not that complicated for a older engine I have also looked a some source code over the last weak for other engines and think that I can come
up with something at leased as good and in the case of real time engine mapping adaptation a lot better (tuning the engines characteristics while
running on the road hooked up to a lap top)
However I would admit that this is a secondary project that I would attempt after the dash and only if I had some one who was specifically interested
in this idea and prepped to pay a resoble amount for it.
2. Things like oil pressure sensors and eng temp monitors, I would say could be done in two ways.
a. a simple switch - open or closed and b. a variable sensor, which varies resistance with pressure or temp - in this case why not 'learn'
cold / no oil pressure with engine at reast and idle, and 'hot' / normal pressure when car is at full running temp. you could scale these as
0 - 100 % and show an over % when it goes past normal limits. There are so many different sensors out there I think you might be pushed to have a
fully calibrated system.
As for the sensors I am aware of many different ways of measuring theas values however I would like to know what sensors you what i.e. a seara temp
sensot from the radiator. The reason for this is that each manafacture of sensors will probably used a different interface to the sensor. As for
having it fully calibrated I recon I can get the system reasonable accurate
3. A two line LCD might be a bit restrictive. It would keep cost down, but I wonder if it would be better to have something more graphical, and able
to show more than a couple items at a time? Also, LCD units are not always great in full sun as an open topped seven would be. At least using a 2 line
lcd rather than a dot graphics lcd will give better contrast. You could as a minimum go up to a four line character panel - possibly 40 chars long
too.
The problem with character lcds is that they tend to have quite small digits. Some only 5 - 6 mm high. With a graphics panel you can make big numbers
and make them easier to see, but then you have the contrast issues.
As you have mentchoned I chosen the 2*40 for cost reasons however I will look in to the cost of some other screans and tell you all hear, incedently I
was planning on using a back lit item that would have a feed from the lighting circuit to enable the back light.
As for electrical noise the CPU will be opto isolated (and other isolation as required for signal conditioning) form the car electric systems so there
will be no wores there. I am using the packaging/conectors that BMW ECU comes in (had one lieing about). The devices power supply had some heavy
protection on it as well (for starting the engin). All inter cuicitry is done using can bus (designed for automotive aplications).
are you not getting a little over complicated here????
for a basic system you only need to have certain info to hand eg:
MPH, odometer, RPM, oil press, coolant temp, (maybe fuel level)
all the other things you all mention: 0-60 times, lambda readings, data logging, etc are irrelevant on this type of project.
you just need the basics to hand (or eye)
As for warning lights, keep em on the dash sepreate, they need to be notable, you dont want a tiny oil pressure warning light, it wants to be notable
on the dash
if all you want to do is play at being a racing driver on track days go get a telemitary setup
Ah Eddie I think you'll find that's pretty much what I said too...
However, if the other things are "free", then why not?.....
I do agree though that if the extra "track type" features push up the price too much then you'll end up in Stack terrirtory, which was
not my intent.
Alan
The cost is going to be close to 50 depending on the screen that I use for the project
I am going to build in support for the standard set of seara + escort instrumentation. If any body is interested in any thing else pleas say as it is
easer to add this tipe of support at the beginning of a project as I am sure other soft ware people will agree with me on
also I wright embedded control software for a living and this sort of level of complexity is not hard to implement at all
also as for the stack system it is very nice but if there was any body who is interested I could build a similar system incorporating GPS and much
more sophisticated data logging such as incorporated on many racing cars for a tine fraction of the price.
living
im not sure if you have your marketing angle right in this project.
I can see two kinds of buyer (three if looking at race apps).
1. Someone that is building an ultra light car and needs minimal instrumentation. Wont be concerned that a small LCD about 30mm x 80mm is all he has
on an expanse of dashboard.
In this case he could use
http://www.halfords.com/shop/item.asp?id=108373&cat=8&sub=95
which gives change from six quid!!!!
2. Someone that wants something digital and a bit on the flashy side. Nice big digits, a sweeping rev counter graphic, little graphic indicators of
water temp, oil pressure, etc, rather than a pop up text warning of a couple of figures on a screen.
I spendt about 300+ on my instruments. If you are hoping to sell lots of these, I would suggest that you dont say how cheap they are to make, and that
you 'add value' by making them look 'must have' for the dash of your long spent building car. You could sell a decent featured
graphic dash for around 200 quid or more - as an analaog speedo costs about 100+ quid, a tacho 80+, and smaller instruments about 20+ quid.
Otherwise, a lot of the market will pop down to halfords at lunch time and buy their lunch with the change for a tenner, dash instrument in hand.
atb
steve
[Edited on 7/5/03 by stephen_gusterson]
I am not doing this as a buisnes opertunite all I am trying to do is offer my expereance and skils to the group if pepol are intrested in trhis sort
of thing I am happy to help in not ok.
but for me this is all about doing stuff for the comunity i.e. ceping the low in low cost ther are anumber of you out ther who have given advice or
sold me odd and ends at very good prices I am just returning the favor.
I'd pay money for one with a larger lcd display that was easy to read (at speed )
Graphical rev display would be nice, though other things can be digits/text.
what are the possibilties of outputs for say oil pressure and temp so you could attach a larger warning lamp on the dash for the limit threshholds?
Andrew.
Steve, the Halfords link didn't work (fully) just ended up at the main page...
What is it that is just 6 quid????
Surely can't be what I had in mind which sounds more like the projected 200 quid kind of jobbie...
Hi ned
I am switching the out puts from the 12v car supply so if you want to switch a simple bulb on the dash that will be of if however you want to switch
on a hi current draw item then you will have to add a relay similar to the way one is used on the head lap circuit and fuse this device separately.
The device to date had been designed so that it will hopefully be as simple as possible to use i.e. all out puts are the same as form any other car
electrical component. So that it will just be a mater of connecting the wires up.
quote:
Originally posted by ceebmoj
I am not doing this as a buisnes opertunite all I am trying to do is offer my expereance and skils to the group if pepol are intrested in trhis sort of thing I am happy to help in not ok.
but for me this is all about doing stuff for the comunity i.e. ceping the low in low cost ther are anumber of you out ther who have given advice or sold me odd and ends at very good prices I am just returning the favor.
quote:
Originally posted by Alan B
Steve, the Halfords link didn't work (fully) just ended up at the main page...
What is it that is just 6 quid????
Surely can't be what I had in mind which sounds more like the projected 200 quid kind of jobbie...
this is a shot of a screen we use at work, which is a 240 x 128 dot graphic panel.
gives an approx idea of size of screen and letters on a typical 17 ins monitor.
atb
steve
Rescued attachment 1.jpg
An ok thanks for the pick of the screen Stephen is it from a PLC product (semans e100 range) or an in house development?
I will adapt the code with that type of display in mind. I have some nice components that will draw an analogue dile Speedo on that type of screen.
However with that size of screen I would only display say two large dials or one large and two small diles as they tend to get a bit confusing if you
put to much on them this would still allow some space for warning/ other indicators
its something I designed - im also a hardware software guy - but I didnt do the screen driver software - that was a colleague.
the screen is made by a company called emerging display technologies and is LED backlit.
It costs about 38 quid, and is similar to the farnell stocked hitatchi 240 x 128 dot modules, but a fair bit cheaper!
atb
steve
ps
if you want one to play with I can send you one free - we have units laying around from service exchange panels.
if i could borrow a demo screan that would be very usefull thank you.
quote:
Originally posted by ceebmoj
if i could borrow a demo screan that would be very usefull thank you.
Ceebmoj,
Going back to what you were saying about 1 large dial and 2 small presumably this could be RPM at the top, speed bottom right and a user switchable
one bottom left ie monitor temp/oil pressure/0-60 time etc.
personally I'd link the oil pressure and temp lights back out to a bigger red light on the dash.
A dot matrix lcd like the one steve showed is definately the way to go. the nearest product I know of is the PI system 2 which goes for 1k seconf
hand, this does have more channels, but not the point really if they're not used!
Andrew.
yes I could do that withthe diales have one that cicled what it desplayed however because it is not a couour display it can be hard to tell at a
glance (with out reading the text discription) what the dial displayes.
I was planing on having the dials fixed i.e. no cycleing bewean difrent readings and then having some text at the bottom of the display witch changed
to show the other readings.
but if you are intrested in having a cyceling dyle I could look in to macking the difrent dials more didsteinctive so you can tell what thay represent
in a galance al oposed to having to read a lable if the dial is constantly changing.
a nother posibility is using one dial with two nedals but once again this can get complicated. to read at a glance.
ceebmoj,
I don't by any means want to make life harder for you, I just thought a 'cycling' display/dial would make the overall look of the
display less cluttered and allow you to show specific/relevant info at a time, less info on the screen would also allow it to be easier to read at a
glance and give more space to make the info displayed larger and hence again easier to read.
perhaps you could draw a diagram of proposed layout in paintbrush or similar and post it here?
just a thought...
Andrew.
just an idea.
Andrew
I want a screen like Neds/Stephens attachments for my locost!
1. What are the issues with getting all the guages working (eg how do you get the thing set up to read water temp, speed, rpm, etc)?
2. What kind of cost are we talking for the "basic" set up?
I'm an electrical Philistine, so apologies if a stoopid question! But am interested in the thread nonetheless!
Regards,
Mark
hi how do I post pictures on hear I have no web space so if some one u2us me I will send you a pic to post the boxes at the top represent on screan indications on the warning lamps that you can wire up tio the dash the dial represent rmp mph and oil temp with the cicyeling values switch ing betwean each of the other monitored values
hi I will aime to keep the cost as low as posible. I was hoping for around 50 but with this screan it will cost a bit more I have not worket out a
cost for it yet but sub 100 and probably more 80 (planing on using a seporat prosesor for the display garentees smother animations)
it will however take a litle while to develop this device but my shift lightsa are all but finished so for thowes of you just looking for that
functionality thay may be ok for you.
ceebmoj, there's a photo section on this site where you can upload your pictures to your own area. If you do that you can then link to them
there. I've not any pictures myself yet so I'm not entirely sure how that parts done. But once you have the picture in your photo archive
(there's a link under your name on each of your posts), view the picture, right click, properties, then copy and paste the address.
Hope thats clear.
ok hear is the pick
[pic]http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/xmb/viewthread.php?tid=2863&page=1[/pic]
I only did this quickly so sory for the roufnes of it
Do you mean:
Chris
that is the one.
what are the tags you used ?
they were probably [img]
Andrew.
Yeah, and you got the URL wrong too. You need to right click on the picture, choose properties, and copy-paste the URL between [img] tags
eg [img]URL here[/img]
Chris