pot2
As above I am adding a swirl pot and a facet pump to an injection system to get rid of fuel starvation issues:
The HP pump is brand new Bosch job (3bar 135ltr / hr)
The facet pump will be right under the tank (200mm away) but will not much room after I have the filter there as well
The swirl pump and HP will be to one side of the engine (the opposite side to the infections system)
The engine is a zetec 1.6 pushing out around 150hp
I called one company for recommendations and they said I should use a red top facet pump to give me the high volume (180 ltr / hour).
eg http://www.glencoeltd.co.uk/facet-fuel-pumps/facet-cylindrical-pump-12v-24v/facet-red-top-cylindrical-fuel-pump-kit-8mm-tails/
Why should I not use a smaller / lighter (and lower cost facet pump that runs at around 130ltr /hour (or around the same as the HP pump)?
http://www.glencoeltd.co.uk/facet-fuel-pumps/facet-solid-state-pump-12v-24v/facet-solid-state-pump-kit-40106k/
My thoughts is that most of the fuel from the HP pump is flowing back from the fuel return to the swirl pot so why do I need such a nigh capacity pump
as the primer pump?
Thanks in advance for your comments
Alex
I already have a bike pump (ZX9R) in place so I will be using that.
Hi Alex! The lower output pump should be fine. It does not have to cope with peak flow requirements.
Absolutely no need for a 180 l/hr lift pump!
I've been advised to use Facet blue top (slightly courser internal filter than the red top),mounted vertically, then into cav filter with 8-12 micron spin on filter before swirl pot, out into HP Bosch pump mounted horizontally and 3 micron filter just before fuel rail entry.
HI Unijack067, why the blue top which is even higher spec than the red top (and more expensive!)? Who gave you the advice and did the explain why?
My thoughts match the other comments here so was going for a 130ltr / hr lift pump - or 29 gallons / hr.
I cant see that amount of fuel ever being required :-)... so why did 3 companies suggest much bigger pumps. Perhaps they are more used to specing
v.high performance high HP race cars
Cheers
Alex
When I just switched to EFI, from my googling and reading previoud posts I went for a red top.. Now I an running a rover v8 which may glug fuel at a
far more rapid rate that you are planning, so maybe (although I don't think) I need such a big LP pump.
Isn't there something about the cylindrical ones being interrupter pumps where as the square ones aren't ?
I've yet to fit a flow restrictor but having one would cause the red top at least, if not the square ones too to calm down.
just read this:
https://www.merlinmotorspo
rt.co.uk/knowledge_base_articles/view/facet-fuel-pumps-for-vehicles-running-carburettors-282
think I may be wrong about the interrupter business..
Thanks Chris...
Does anyone know the difference between the facet pumps ... what is an "interrupter pump"? I can believe it is about volume of flow as
28g/hour should be plenty even for a rover V8 :-)
Alex
Wouldnt be simpler to mod tank to incorporate a plenum in base
Hi Blue2cv, I thought of this. Firstly I would be nervous to weld fuel tank myself (I also don't have the kit :-)) and as it is st.steel tank, I
it will be expensive job (more than a swirl pot and pump).
Alex
How big is the swirl pot ? Unless the swirl pot is tiny the lift pump flow rate can be a fair bit lower than the HP pump.
The return line to the tank should be a smaller diameter than the suction lines line.
Hi, I was planning a 1lt pot as I dont have much room :-).
All the pipes for the return and supply are 8mm dia and I cant easy change them.
Why should the return be smaller - I heard this makes the pump quieter. If this is the case and could I partially pinch the return rubber tube to
create a restriction or what did you do?
Alex
not sure if you have seen these:
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=193212
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=196333
someone suggests in a post somewhere - not in either of the above, using the shank of a M8 bolt and drilling a 1mm hole in it to restrict the return
to the tank from the swirl pot, this allows the pump to calm down and also stops the fuel wizzing around at full speed and dropping back into the
tank. NOt done this myself yet, but it is how I will reduce the 8mm return I have. I pinched the return pipe with some pliers to prove it in
principle.
Hi Chris,
Thanks and I think you have found the issue with the lower volume std pumps... I will try the 1mm (or so) hole in a 8mm M8 shank as it sounds like a
great idea!
Did you get fuel issues on your xtreme before you went to the swirl pot? The shape if the tank is not that good is it! It also is slow to fill and a
simple built-in sump would make quite a difference.
Cheers
Alex
I took the car off the road last march to switch from carbs to EFI, so introduced a swirl pot for that reason.
(and duh to me I just realised you have a Q X too !)
[Edited on 14/4/15 by Chris_Xtreme]
A popular mod in Subaru circles, and one I've used on my Jaguar installation is a RC Model fuel tank as a swirl pot inside the tank:
pot2
Hi Pete, That is a great idea for a system with an in-tank pump! unfortunately the take off is from the bottom of my tank and not in the lid (is its actually the other side of a baffle so it is not possible to access this area at all to make something equivalent! Alex
quote:
Originally posted by AlexXtreme
HI Unijack067, why the blue top which is even higher spec than the red top (and more expensive!)? Who gave you the advice and did the explain why?
My thoughts match the other comments here so was going for a 130ltr / hr lift pump - or 29 gallons / hr.
I cant see that amount of fuel ever being required :-)... so why did 3 companies suggest much bigger pumps. Perhaps they are more used to specing v.high performance high HP race cars
Cheers
Alex
HI Unijack067, sounds like a nice set-up :-) and you have any internal and external swirl pot :-)
cheers
Alex
It's taking ages though, lol 
Hi Guys, I am going for a small facet pump and a 1/2 ltr swirl pot in the engine bay. Will try a small section of "squeezed" copper tube a
restriction to see if this works (easier than drilling out a small bolt) as long as the copper does not show signs of splitting. Although the
restricted bit will be within the fuel hose!
Will keep you updated on progress and thanks for the help.
Alex
Right - it is all stripped down and I empty the fuel tank (not a nice job) and it is a clean as a whistle! I cant see the end where the take off is
located as it is behind a baffle, however there is no sign of anything in the tank.
Going ahead with the new fuel system anyway as whilst it is all stripped - I might as well as hopefully this will clear the problem
Alex
Project update...
Went for this priming pump
http://www.glencoeltd.co.uk/facet-fuel-pumps/facet-solid-state-pump-12v-24v/facet-solid-state-pump-kit-40106k/
and this swirl pot
http://www.motorsport-tools.com/obp-bulk-head-mount-1-ltr-fuel-swirl-pot-obpa025.html
To get enough room on my Xtreme, with some help of hand made alloy brackets I mounted the swirl pot and the priming pump on the offside of the car
(the other side of the injection fuel pump). The fuel pipes looked reasonable neat in the end routing them above and below the diff, keeping them away
from any hot and moving parts ;-).
I tried running the system without any restriction on the return from the swirl pot to the tank but it was a bit noisy (could have been that it was
bolted direct to the bulkhead!). Anyway I cut a 8mm bolt shank down to around 8mm in length and drilled a 1.5mm hole in it (that is the smallest I
had) and pushed it in the return pipe, with a local jubilee clip to stop it moving, and the pump calmed down considerably :-).
Overall the whole system seems to work a lot better and was not expensive. No idea why I was getting the noisy inject pump before, however it seems
much happier with a primed system with a positive pressure input.
A handy tip I have learnt from a friend in the boat building business. When drilling stainless steel, make certain to centre punch before you start,
use small drill to start with and if you don't have any cooling liquid or you're drilling in a hard to access area, KY jelly or similar
"lubrication" cream makes for a very good drilling coolant ;-).
Can post pictures if anyone is interested though not that much is visible now as the rear moulding is back on.
Cheers
Alex - do you have a pic of the offside swirl pot fitting?
I ended up putting mine in the boot (as a rushed solution) but would love to get the boot space back to be able to put the side screens back in.
cheers - Chris
Hi Chris, I will try and take a picture of what I did.
Looking at the image on the link, I mounted it with the swirl pot pipe fittings pointing in-board. The pot is mounted as low as possible outboard and
I chamfered off the top fwd corner of the bracket to get it to fit a bit more snugly. The brackets are glued in place with a single bolt to be on the
safe side.
I carry the doors in the boot now again .... how do you stop them getting damaged??
Cheers
Alex
I'd appreciate a pic thanks.
side screens - At some point, I had a bit of thin carpet between them.. but to be honest, mine are 10+yrs old so I care about them to a degree.
I also put some rubber non slip mat over the plastic in the boot to stop the boot getting damaged by the metal bits on the screens.
Hi Chris
My car is around 14 years old... I have had it for around 4 years so they are both "getting on a bit"!
I hope you can see images
The primer pump is quite close to the bottom of the diff but on the same side as the swirl pot. If the background of the swirl pic you can see the
outboard section from the chassis, the suspension arm and the wheel.
The swirl pot is mounted on two alloy brackets made from strip alloy from B&Q. I pre-cut and fitted the brackets to the swirlpot at the
intersection between the chassis and the bulkhead as low as possible - it misses by around 15mm. I sanded and abraded the surfaces and then blind
bonded the swirl pot brackets inplace with some high strength flexible adhesive whilst they were attached to the swirlpot.... and put a single bolt at
the top for safe measure :-).
All the pipes on the swirl pot were 10mm feeds so I had to get reducers down to 8mm.
When I next take the wheels off I should be able to get some better pics though this could be a while! I need to start driving the car again rather
than having it sit in my shed.
Cheers
Alex
[img]https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0txfXCSQTNVQkFITzBKR2dCMElZLUdEY3JNSFNXbi1lRzZF[/img]
[img]https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0txfXCSQTNVQkFITzBKR2dCMElZLUdEY3JNSFNXbi1lRzZF[/img]
Hi Chris
My car is around 14 years old... I have had it for around 4 years so they are both "getting on a bit"!
I hope you can see images
The primer pump is quite close to the bottom of the diff but on the same side as the swirl pot. If the background of the swirl pic you can see the
outboard section from the chassis, the suspension arm and the wheel.
The swirl pot is mounted on two alloy brackets made from strip alloy from B&Q. I pre-cut and fitted the brackets to the swirlpot at the
intersection between the chassis and the bulkhead as low as possible - it misses by around 15mm. I sanded and abraded the surfaces and then blind
bonded the swirl pot brackets inplace with some high strength flexible adhesive whilst they were attached to the swirlpot.... and put a single bolt at
the top for safe measure :-).
All the pipes on the swirl pot were 10mm feeds so I had to get reducers down to 8mm.
When I next take the wheels off I should be able to get some better pics though this could be a while! I need to start driving the car again rather
than having it sit in my shed.
Cheers
Alex
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0txfXCSQTNVd2tfeTJKTW1KMWp3V0lZWXNjXzNwcGpQOWVJ
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0txfXCSQTNVQkFITzBKR2dCMElZLUdEY3JNSFNXbi1lRzZF
[Edited on 12/8/15 by AlexXtreme]
got the pics, thanks.
and wow you managed to squeeze it in there ! I'll have to have a look at some point into moving mine too. cheers.
More pics taken with the wheel removed today - they show more of the brackets / arrangment
Cheers
Alex
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/cL5b4ZQSDfFpEljnY2iyjm-vWs37cn_gW1jg_vRcqYg?feat=directlink
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/0m6J66w0eQf4OFVTEqB3OW-vWs37cn_gW1jg_vRcqYg?feat=directlink
[Edited on 16/8/15 by AlexXtreme]
Nice one, thanks. Shows it even clearer. I really didnt think it could fit there!