RichieC
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| posted on 27/10/05 at 04:28 PM |
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Vortx RT - New builder questions
Hi everyone,
Come donor time, Ive found a list of the bits I need from the Sierra but not a lot about exactly which model I need to locate. I appreciate there are
many diff types but Id really like to get the right one first time 
Engine wise, I definately want to go bike engine. Id previously only ever seen Vortxs with blade engines but R1s are also being used I see. What
advice could anyone offer to help choose the engine. Are some easier to fit than others? Is there much of a price difference in sourcing the
engine?
Lots of questions, but thanks in advance for any suggestions/experiences
Rgds
Rich
[Edited on 4/11/05 by RichieC]
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andy d (rizla)
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| posted on 27/10/05 at 04:35 PM |
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 good choice
as for the bike engines,its the only way to go
mines blade(because its well proven,strong and not that much slower than a r1,but prices for r1,zx12,busas are alot more than a blade(another
reason)
whatever one you go for youl be amazed at the performance
as for the parts from the sierra give marc/chris a bell and get it straight from the horses mouth
 
Rescued attachment calender pic.jpg
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Dillinger1977
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| posted on 27/10/05 at 04:56 PM |
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one of the nice things about a vortex is that if you know you want bike engine only, they'll do a chassis with a very narrow transmission tunnel
that doesnt have to be large enough to get a car gearbox in. this gives you a very wide footwell which is handy if you have clodhopper feet like me
engine wise, the r1 has more power but will cost you a bit more. on the plus side, it is easier to modify, and doesnt need the sump cut/welded/plug
moved. all it needs is a baffle plate. upgrading the clutch is a good idea too.
diffs, the lower the better by all accounts. 3.14 is supposed to be ideal but very rare (=expensive). 3.36 is probably the next best.
im a bit more than halfway through building a RT R1 myself. hope to get it done over winter for next year 
-Rog
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Winston Todge
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| posted on 27/10/05 at 06:16 PM |
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Hey Rich, welcome to the forum!
I don't think you'll be disappointed with the performance of a BEC! Have you had a ride in a VortX with Marc at the helm yet? I would
thoroughly recommend it... 
As for donors, I was very lucky and found a Sierra 2.3D with a 3.38. I think this diff may actually be a slightly more suitable ratio than the 3.14
for road/track work. If you were doing lots of motorway miles a 3.14 would probably be the diff of choice, but you'll pay through the nose for
one.
Try to find drum brakes on the rear for the lighter push in shafts, non power steering for useable steering rack and no ABS...
I've almost finished my 'engine' section in 'design' on my site... But basically the Blade is a little cheaper to source
depending on year and the bigger fours are much more expensive with the Busa's and ZX12s needing dry sumping and £!
The carbed R1s are the engine of choice from Marc's perspective due to no major mods being required to fit it except a sump baffle plus the
electrics are more simple than the fuel injected motor. They are also bullet proof (proven side car and BEC history) and produce great power and
torque throughout the rev range.
The ZX12R would be the engine of choice for me though if money didn't come into it... Awesome power, also bullet proof and highly tuneable (ie.
bloody strong...). I know a bloke with 150bhp progressive N20 shot on standard internals... (probably won't last the year though... )
As for price... R1 - £1k to £1.2k, Blade - £750 to £1k, ZX12 and Busa - £1.1 to £1.6k plus dry sump... R1 really does have awesome bang for buck.
Again though I reckon the Aprilia Rotax V990 (Mille, Capanord, Tuono, Futura V60 twin) could still be a fantastic motor for these cars with standard
dry sump, lightweight, good gearing and powerful.
In terms of manufacturers, I did a lot of research and MNR were head and shoulders above the rest in quality, design and performance. (I know people
are bound to disagree...) Watch out in the RGB next year!
Chris.
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smart51
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| posted on 27/10/05 at 06:37 PM |
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You don't neccesarily need a low ratio diff for a BEC. It depends an which bike engine you choose. The little 900cc fireblades have sharter
legs so may need a low ratio diff but bigger wheels will also do the trick. My R1 has a 3.62 diff and 15" rims fitted with 195/50 tyres. This
is good for 50 MPH in 1st and 120 MPH in 6th. a 3.14 diff instead of a 3.62 is the same difference as 13" rims to 15" or 15" to
17" (fitted with the same size tyre of course). Don't get hung up on diff ratio, it's not the only important thing.
As for price, My R1 engine came for £650 including the electrics. Add onto that the cost of the instrument pack. R1 engines are easy to work on, in
my limited experience, and seem to be Marc's choice for reliability. (Everytime I asked him, "will this bike engine fit" he
answered that it will, but an R1 is a better choice." Now that I have one, I can see what he means. still, the world is your oyster.
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RichieC
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| posted on 27/10/05 at 06:44 PM |
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Thanks a lot guys.
I was swaying towards the R1, it seems that it will be the best choice for me as, this being my first kit Id prefer not to make work for myself. Its
also about us much as Id want to pay for the engine. I like the idea of the smaller tunnel too.
Which other bits do I need rom the R1? Is it cooling too (just rad?).
Diff wise, yeh, some more good info there. Ideally I want an LSD but I think the chances of finding a cheap XR4 are slim.
Therefore, I may very well get say a GL as the main donor and buy an LSD seperately. Is this a realistic option or are they a bugger to mate up.
This would also be an option to ensure I get the diff I want even if I dont opt for the slipper.
Andy and Winston, Ive been perusing both your sites, it was yours through which I spotted MNR Andy.
Thanks again for the info though guys, I think Ive been bitten
Kind Rgds
Rich
[Edited on 27/10/05 by RichieC]
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RichieC
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| posted on 27/10/05 at 06:52 PM |
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Dillinger, I note from your site you split the kit down into 3 sub kits. If you dont mind me asking, what was the cost breakdown of this.
I cant see the build being a particularly quick one so that may be an option.
Also, do I assume from you buying the donor parts as opposed to stripping them from a car, yours will go onto a Q plate? Im not sure about this these
days, has it not all changed? Are there any down sides to a Q versus age related?
Thanks again
Richie
[Edited on 27/10/05 by RichieC]
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smart51
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| posted on 27/10/05 at 07:12 PM |
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From the R1 you will need:
The engine and gearbox (1 unit)
the carbs
the CDI
the regulator / rectifier.
the EXUP motor
the complete wiring loom
If you want to use the R1 instrument pack you will need it plus the headlight sub wiring loom.
Marc recomends against the R1 radiator, although I did use the temperature sensor from mine. It is only used to show the temperature on the
instrument pack and so is not needed otherwise.
The fuel pump and fuel filter are also handy.
I have an LSD but that's just because it was on offer when I was looking. The normal diff is lighter and so are the push in half shafts. If I
was building again, I think I'd go for the lighter parts and just try not to wheelspin. That said, I like the idea of having an LSD.
Wht buy a donor sierra if you just want the axles, the handbrake lever and the steering? There are plenty of places that will seel you the donor
parts on their own. MNR will do this. Some places will recondition them for you as well, at an extra cost.
The donor parts will cost you a hundred pounds or so more than a donor car but it will save you a lot of work and getting rid of the shell. stripping
a donor car only makes sense to me if you are going to use it's engine, gearbox, clocks and so on as well.
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Winston Todge
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| posted on 27/10/05 at 07:13 PM |
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Talk to Marc about LSDs...
They can a few disadvantages. They are viscous coupling type LSDs which means there is a small amount of slip before the diff locks up. This can be
quite suddenly and heading around a corner hard when the diff locks up can be sphincter tightening to say the least... You've got to be an
experienced driver to get the most out of a viscous coupled LSD.
The LSD can also cause understeer going into a corner hard. I've never experienced this but I suppose if a wheel locked up briefly the diff
would also, causing a 'push' at the front due to the extra shove from the rear... Anyone clarify this? Similar concept to slipper clutches
on motorcycles?
Another factor is that they are heavier and not entriely necessary in some's opinion. Marc was telling me that with his Colway's on there
really isn't a situation where it is needed... Except maybe donuts around the carpark.
Chris.
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smart51
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| posted on 27/10/05 at 07:27 PM |
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Be careful Winston about LSDs and Viscous Couplings. A viscous coupling acts like a normal diff until it is activated. This means that it
won't cause understeer (like a normal LSD) unless the viscous coupling is actvated. This means that one of the rear wheels has to slip before
the viscous coupling locks, before increased understeer is noticed. The understeer is part of the way that the oversteer is corrected.
OK, an LSD is not a cure all for rear wheel spin, and there is much debate about their usefulness in a light weight car but the sierra viscous coupled
diff has the advantage of being an open diff in normal conditions. If you drive hard enough to activate an LSD then you'll have to be a good
driver whether you have one or not. Lose traction with an open diff and you'll be looking at a different part of the road than you planned to!
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RichieC
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| posted on 27/10/05 at 07:27 PM |
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I see the point about the donor issue. Would buying the bits rather than stripping a donor mean a Q plate or can the V5 be retained too? The Q plate
doesnt bother me at all, but I have heard of owners turning their noses up. I cant think of any reason against a Q.
Thanks for the info about the LSD. I hadnt considered the extra weight and to be frank, having never driven a BEC with one, I probably wouldnt miss
it. Im not convinced the extra weight would be worth it.
I have a mate who can source me an R1 engine for decent money. Is there a model year to avoid? I think he says he has a 99 kicking about
somewhere.
Thanks again
Richie
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RichieC
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| posted on 27/10/05 at 07:34 PM |
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I love the idea of using the stock R1 clocks and controls. Has anyone had any experience of this, looks like it could be a bit of a mare.
Rich
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G.Man
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| posted on 27/10/05 at 07:38 PM |
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Good choice on the MNR, R1 will be a good choice as they are the right price and readily available from born again bikers that kill them...
3.38 diff from a sierra diesel is a good choice for road use...
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mangogrooveworkshop
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| posted on 27/10/05 at 09:21 PM |
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Sorry to jump in on that R1 debate but as good as that is this fazer package
athoirs is selling at the mo
posted on 15-10-05 at 16:40
Yamaha engine package
Yamaha Fazer 1000 engine.
2002 model. 3000 miles total . 6 gear carb which has been jetted giving better mid range and top end.
Has been fitted with All Bikes baffled sump and tulip to prevent oil starvation
Fitted with oil pressure take off and supplied complete with oil pressure gauge.
Uprated EBC clutch springs
MK engineering prop adapter
R1 radiator/ fan with all pipework, coolant temp sensor (digital display on R1 clocks)
MK exhaust system with cat converter and 02 sensor fitted ready for SVA
Full wiring loom – fitted with R1 clocks with all functions working. Speedohealer, electronic ex-up valve mimic, push button start Wiring loom
connected to included Sierra headlight, indicator and hazard switches and key
Full wiring diagram included
This is basically a 140hp-engine package which you just have to hook up the lights and go!
The engine has had all the things done to it to make it more reliable
Engine is still in car at the moment and can be seen running.
Not selling car now but upgrading to ZX12!!
£1200 (new lower price!!)
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G.Man
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| posted on 28/10/05 at 06:26 AM |
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with the wiring etc the price is good...
lot prettier engine than the R1 as well..
depends on the condition of the gearbox etc but I'd say its a good deal
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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mnr laptop
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| posted on 28/10/05 at 06:44 AM |
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bit much for a fazer package in my opinion, if the package was nearer 900 quid then ok deal, but for 1200 you can get yourself an r1 complete
best regards
marc
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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G.Man
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| posted on 28/10/05 at 07:21 AM |
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But you would still have to buy this lot as well...
quote:
Has been fitted with All Bikes baffled sump and tulip to prevent oil starvation
Fitted with oil pressure take off and supplied complete with oil pressure gauge.
Uprated EBC clutch springs
MK engineering prop adapter
R1 radiator/ fan with all pipework, coolant temp sensor (digital display on R1 clocks)
MK exhaust system with cat converter and 02 sensor fitted ready for SVA
Full wiring loom – fitted with R1 clocks with all functions working. Speedohealer, electronic ex-up valve mimic, push button start Wiring loom
connected to included Sierra headlight, indicator and hazard switches and key
Full wiring diagram included
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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marc n
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| posted on 28/10/05 at 08:02 AM |
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maybe its just me being a tight yorkshireman
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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smart51
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| posted on 28/10/05 at 08:54 AM |
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I am using the R1 clocks. I have not had a problem with them. The plastic casing is in two halves which screw together, you cut a hole in your dash
of the right shape and screw the two halves together with the dash in the middle. Simple, neat and tidy. Also the wiring is easy. it just plugs
into the loom and so picks up speed, revs, temperature etc. I had to splice in 4 wires from the car loom - backlight (sidelights) indicators L and R
plus main beam. Easy.
The only problem is the radius of the edges. You are allowed 6" around the steering wheel which is exempt from the sharp edge rule. a
15" sierra steering wheel will do the job nicely. You can swap the wheel after SVA if you wish.
This said, there are some nice aftermarket guages that will suit a bike engine, but they will cost you.
[Edited on 28-10-2005 by smart51]
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RichieC
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| posted on 28/10/05 at 12:44 PM |
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Smart 51: Do you have any pics of the clocks in situ? Ive not seen them in this configuration before.
Id settle for the R1 clocks/lamps and ford switchgear if thats any simpler.
Thanks
Rich
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G.Man
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| posted on 28/10/05 at 08:34 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by marc n
maybe its just me being a tight yorkshireman
No comment
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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