Hi
I have had a query from a friend regarding his MNR which raised a question.
Are any of you guys running rose jointed top outer joints rather than the transit joint running safety washers above the rose joint. Seems that they
are not provided in the kit and looking at a few build blogs it would seem no one else is running them either. 
Cheers Matt
Not available in the UK!
I bought mine from Pegasus racing in the usa.
They are like normal washers except they have a raised centre.
I am using them on the F1-2 and motaliera.
I am a bit busy installing my new laptop software, but look in my archive for some pics
These...
[img][/img]
Most people use an angled spacer anyway and this can be combined with a decent flat washer. I've seen quite a few front corners with just an
allen bolt and the angled spacer and no washer of any sort 
[Edited on 16/12/08 by Richard Quinn]
Always use rod ends in double shear, and always use quality joints. No need for those washers then. As a general guide, if the joints have a metric thread, they are probably not suitable for use as a suspension component. There are a lot of rod ends made for industrial purposes that were never intended for use as suspension components, these tend to be the ones that fail.
I would say for safety on steering components,and the fact they are only cost a few pence each,they should be fitted.
mcgill motorsports .
transit joints arent in double shear , and depending on the spec if you have worked it out in load rating the metric ones are ok for suspension, but
you normally need to go a size up on the imperial ones .
quote:
Originally posted by Phil.J
Always use rod ends in double shear, and always use quality joints. No need for those washers then. As a general guide, if the joints have a metric thread, they are probably not suitable for use as a suspension component. There are a lot of rod ends made for industrial purposes that were never intended for use as suspension components, these tend to be the ones that fail.
Hi
I am indeed refering to the rose joint being used as a replacmnet for the transit joint. Having looked through quite a few pictures of MNR builds i am
seeing that most are not using the saftey washers as pictured above.
Example here.
[img]http://
Pic of the upright whithout the saftey washer fitted.
[/img]
Cheers Matt
quote:
Originally posted by procomp
Hi
I am indeed refering to the rose joint being used as a replacmnet for the transit joint. Having looked through quite a few pictures of MNR builds i am seeing that most are not using the saftey washers as pictured above.
Example here.
[img]http://
Pic of the upright whithout the saftey washer fitted. [/img]
Cheers Matt
For all fellow MNR owners here is the U2U'd response I got to my last post on here.
It would seem that one person thinks all our cars are unsafe.
"The guy building the car has asked sombody at MNR and was told they where not needed. Which is very worying if you have ever seen what hapens
when these joints let go in this aplication. And they do go quite often espesialy when high quality high angle joints are NOT being used. A bit like
the lower circliped joints MNR do not seem to understand quite what they are actualy doing with certain aspects of there engineering."
Cheers Matt
This isn't the first U2U I have had from you regarding MNR/Raceleda parts so can I suggest that if you know better then you had better get
yourself over to MNR workshops and tell them where they are going wrong.
What does the safety washer do? Im asking in a general sense for anyone using rose joints - not just MNR's. Does it basically stop the outer rod
end body jumping off if the bearing fails catastrophically? just asking as in one of the pics it looks like the ID of the outer body is a bit bigger
than the securing nut. Ive not studied rod ends much but wouldnt the outer bearing race still be retained in the body thus making the resultant ID
hole smaller and less chance of fully detaching.
Surely if such a washer was required for suspension type rod ends they would be supplied in the kits wouldnt they (i dont mean MNR kits, im referring
to the rod ends as purchased)? or does it depend on how the rod ends are used as to whether the washers are needed?
I dont believe this thread is manufacturer specific so should it be put in a general section with manufacturer details ommitted in the first instance?
Just a question.
HI
Non fitment of safety washers in that aplication and the fitting of circliped joints the wrong way round is where they are going wrong.
Are you happy to drive your car with that setup. Knowing that failures are likely to happen unless corrected. After all yes the uprights have failed
on numerous occasions. Yes the lower circliped joints have failed in use. And yes the top joint when it fails will not end happily if not using a
safety washer.
Cheers Matt
HI
Yes basically the saftey washer is a larger diameter than the inner ball meaning if the inner ball is pulled out of the outer body it can go no
further than the saftey washer. It is common practice to fit the saftey washers in this sort of aplication.
Cheers Matt
On the photo I posted of a Raceleda setup, the safety washer appears to be included (but not the angled spacer) and, judging by the cycle wing in the background, this is on an MNR stand at one of the shows. Showing them fitted perhaps indicates an acknowledgement that they should be fitted?
safety is good, can anyone supply these in the uk and how much would a pair be? washers surely...
a rod end failed on my old westfield on the rear and I added washers for that extra bit of safety..
hi all
appologies for delay, im not getting much time to web surf at the moment, if the uprights have come from us directly safety washers are supplied, or
should have been, if they previously came from raceleda / rally design the pins are not long enough to incorporate a safety washer as pictured and a
high angle spacer, and fitting just the safety washer will create lockout. so large thinner washers have been supplied by us.In the build manual it
does state the use of safety washers. however at some svas they have failed the radius check and have been removed, and maybe have not been
refitted
i would urge those affected / not sure etc including matts friend to contact me direct by email with pictures to make sure which setup you have and
the correct fitments and applications so we can send the appropriate parts asap
please see pic below that somone posted last week showing a rally design upright with our pins / safety washers / spacers
best regards
marc
Rescued attachment upright1.JPG
Hi Marc.
Thank you for clearing that up. I can not understand why all the people building their cars have not fitted the saftey washers when they are supplied
in the kit. Hopefully all will now follow the instructions in the build manual and fit them to save any problems occurring.
Cheers Matt
Ps Marc remember to fit them to the red car in your photo archive as they appear to be missing from that car also.
[Edited on 17/12/08 by procomp]
quote:
Originally posted by procomp
Hi Marc.
Thank you for clearing that up. I can not understand why all the people building their cars have not fitted the saftey washers when they are supplied in the kit. Hopefully all will now follow the instructions in the build manual and fit them to save any problems occurring.
Cheers Matt
Ps Marc remember to fit them to the red car in your photo archive as they appear to be missing from that car also.
[Edited on 17/12/08 by procomp]
FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH
i'm fed up with people complaining about certain
manufacturers kit quality on here without talking to
the designer first.
NO ONE is perfect, and ALL kits have their faults.
I bought my Vortx after looking at all the usual
suppliers, and i'm happy with it.
The safety washers in question were supplied
and are fitted. If some have not got them fitted
they should fit them. Surely this should be picked up
at SVA
The biggest problem is that these cars are built by
amateurs, in most cases with no previous experience.
People also seem to be frightened of talking to the
kit supplier when asking for advise. I know that in the
case of MNR, Chris & Marc will ALWAYS sort out any
problems IF YOU ASK THEM. There is no point in
complaining on here if you don't ask them first.
All kits could do with better build instructions- but at
least you do get some with the MNR kits.
Perhaps the answer is for a more comprehensive
check before being declared roadworthy!!
Get that customer build facility open Marc & Chris,
then you can make sure that the build quality
is as good as your kit quality
RANT OVER- (for now)
GeorgeM
please guys dont let it get personal, the build manual is partly to blame for the mix ups as in text it mentions them, and in some pictures it shows
them some it doesnt
best regards
marc
I totally agree with you George.
It annoys me when other people come on here accusing people of not fitting parts and not following the build manual when they themselves know nothing
about it.
It almost seems as though all they want to do is make the product look unsafe and question the engineering capabilities of the manufacturer.
I don't think it's just a case of having a pop for the sake of it. I come from a civil engineering background and have always been told that
you never knowingly walk past something that is potentially unsafe. I have always run safety washers on the front corners of my Autograss Specials
since I had the centre come out of a rose joint once. That was on grass with a large run-off area at about 60mph and I can tell you that it is still
not nice. On tarmac on a country lane with something coming the way and we would all be reading about it in the national press. There have been a few
posts on here recently about accidents involving kit cars and it really doesn't do any good for the whole industry.
I don't know the exact background to this particular issue but someone has spotted something that is not safe, not supposedly not safe, just not
safe. This has been now been brought to the attention of those that may be affected. According to the OP, the question had been asked of the supplier
and the person had been informed that the part in question was not needed. Whether this is correct or not I don't know but the point is that
these parts are needed and should be fitted.
The point is, if they are not fitted, why are
they going through sva
i still havent heard from the person in question or had a reply to the request of the persons details from matt yet , it is extremely important we get
to the bottom of this because if people are ringing us up and being given incorrect information i need to know who / how / where to be able to take
action.
best regards
marc
The short answer is that I don't know. This is a set up that has been making its way from track to road cars and is still not that widespread.
Failures are quite well known in track situations hence the development of the safety washer which is now pretty well known and accepted in
motorsport.
As you are aware, the SVA isn't the best assessment of a vehicle's overall safety with the bias towards the safety of people outside of the
vehicle rather than those in it. Safety washers would just be another sharp edge issue on the current SVA.
At the end of the day, it is entirely up to people running rose jointed front corners whether they want to fit them or not. As I suggested above,
there should be a duty-of-care to provide the appropriate safety related items but it would ultimately be up to the individual end user as to whether
they choose to fit them.
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Quinn
The short answer is that I don't know. This is a set up that has been making its way from track to road cars and is still not that widespread. Failures are quite well known in track situations hence the development of the safety washer which is now pretty well known and accepted in motorsport.
As you are aware, the SVA isn't the best assessment of a vehicle's overall safety with the bias towards the safety of people outside of the vehicle rather than those in it. Safety washers would just be another sharp edge issue on the current SVA.
At the end of the day, it is entirely up to people running rose jointed front corners whether they want to fit them or not. As I suggested above, there should be a duty-of-care to provide the appropriate safety related items but it would ultimately be up to the individual end user as to whether they choose to fit them.
Hi
I would just like to point out that my original post was not a pop at MNR. And as Richard has kindly pointed out. Once i was aware of the problem i
took it upon myself to post the topic as i saw so many of the builders cars with them not fitted. Marc stated that he supplies them in the kits and
that the manual mentions fitting them. So i therefore can only assume they are provided and that they where not being fitted by the builders. If you
say you have not got them then take that up with Marc rather than having a go at myself.
I have spoke with Marc on U2U regarding the customer who was originally affected.
Re the SVA and picking these sorts of issues up during the test. It is a double edged sword to some extent. We all want the cars to be scrutinized for
absolute saftey but if the tests where to go as far as some other countries ( Australia for instance ) It would simply bring the UK kitcar scene to a
halt regarding new builds. Untill the manufacturers had the chance to redress all sorts of problems it would bring with it. Mind it is a shame that as
it stands they are more interested in a 5mm radius on certain parts of the car than other areas that are actualy far more likely to cause accidents at
some point. But just like when scruitineering a car for a race meeting they can comment on your wheel nuts etc being loose but if say the whole car
desighn in general was of dubious quality they are restricted to what they can say and comment on.
Cheers Matt
Ahh the one motorsport I dont miss race scruitineering memories of clio cup scruitineering PITA.
All the best matt hope to say hello in 2009 as I am going to try and get to a couple of the 750 races and give mat Lewis a hand.
Reagrds
Agriv8
Matt,
Although your may think your original post may not have been a pop directly at MNR your U2U response to me was as you implied that they don't
know what they are doing with some of their engineering and implied that because your mate was told that they were not needed by someone you then
proceeded to make out that everybody's car with these uprights are unsafe.
What you should have done is not to have posted it on here but to have spoken to MNR direct, if then there was concern that people had not fitted them
MNR could have posted on here or contacted customers direct to get them to check A, wether they were supplied in the kit and B, if they are fitted.
Yes the build manual does mention something about safety washers but I doubt all of the builders of the cars that you have seen pictures of thought
"oh, I don't need this washer I will not fit it" which is what you also imply along with accusing people of not being able to follow
the build manual, this is what annoys me.
MNR as always have asked for people to contact them so they can rectify anybodies car that does not have them fitted and I'm sure they will
double check they are supplied with new kits.
Come on guys, time to drop it now.
A point has been made about a particular application for rod ends. As an outsider i read it as well meaning and not really directed to a particular
manufacturer. True it could have been posted in a general suspension section but it wasnt and we cant change history. I dont always agree with public
forums for some things but at least on this occasion people can now check their cars and add the washers if they are needed, looks like a simple
change. Lets face it no-one has been injured etc etc so why not keep it all factual and to the point.
Ive been in the engineering game for too many years and still made errors when i built my car. Some daft ones at that, which were rectified quickly.
All of us do. What is important is that if someone is good enough to point it out we do something about it. No kit manufacturer can absoultely
guarantee that everybody sticks to a rigid assembly process. It is just not possible due to the vehicle spec variations and differing builder skill
sets. What is so great about our good country is that we are allowed to build such cars. Lets focus on that and move on.
On a positive note
we have found 3 people who have not been supplied the washers, stuart is one of them and 5 who have been supplied them but didn't fit them
best regards
marc
QED
I genuinely am interested in this. We have not fitted the washers to the car, but I don't see why a washer will do anything to help my safety.
The top wishbone has practically no load on it vertically as the wishbone can just move freely up and down, right? It does have side-to-side load of
course, but if the inner bearing breaks, the pin is highly unlikely to come out of the rodend as the wishbone will not lift over it, right? And even
if you have a washer, the bearing can still break and the wheel will be half disconnected just the same.
Alll in all, I don't see what the washer would bring in case a bearing fails.
Please help me understand if I am completely off line here...
Gergely
IM going to check mine now, as i got them just as raceleda was switching to MNR.
i'll check mine tomorrow and come back to you.
cheers for the thought on this guys. We should only be thinking of each others safety here...........................
merry xmas anyway
I for one am glad this was posted as I would have had no idea these washers were needed.
I have emailed MNR to let the guys know I do not have any.
I am very glad Marc supports this site.
Merry Christmas
quote:
Originally posted by gr8ging
I for one am glad this was posted as I would have had no idea these washers were needed.
I have emailed MNR to let the guys know I do not have any.
I am very glad Marc supports this site.
Merry Christmas
Emailed MNR Sunday, washers here Tuesday. Can't beat that eh?!