SevenGer
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| posted on 7/2/16 at 07:17 PM |
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Broken Front Bottom Wishbone MK Indy
Hello,
I am Carsten out of Germany, my english is not the best, but i think u can understand me.
I bought an MK Indy 3 days ago, yesterday i moved my new can. After 2 meters the Front Bottom Wishbone broke and the shock too.
Now i lost trust on the Wishbones around the car, i want to renew all of them front & bot , the bushes and also upgrade the Spacers to stainless
steel.
Does it give "Upgrade" Wishbones, which is more stable like the original? Maybe also in stainless steel?
The shock is from GAZ, there is the number 130 090 B12 L10 stanced. For what does the L10 is standing for?
I hope u forgive my bad english, and maybe one of u have got some items of these or know where i can buy this for a cheap price.
[Edited on 7/2/16 by SevenGer]
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CosKev3
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| posted on 7/2/16 at 07:34 PM |
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Oh dear.
Wishbone tube failures have been seen like that before,usaully down to the weld in the ERW tube used to make the bush tube splitting open.
To be honest looking at the state of the bushes and the wishbone the car has been seriously neglected,and seen a lot of rain/wet weather use.
The wishbone is bent too,did this happen when it failed?
If not this could be the cause of the failure,it's been in a accident/knocked previously?
Contact MK Sportscars for new parts,or U2U user Danny Keenan on here,he runs MK cars
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SevenGer
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| posted on 7/2/16 at 08:16 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by CosKev3
Oh dear.
Wishbone tube failures have been seen like that before,usaully down to the weld in the ERW tube used to make the bush tube splitting open.
To be honest looking at the state of the bushes and the wishbone the car has been seriously neglected,and seen a lot of rain/wet weather use.
The wishbone is bent too,did this happen when it failed?
If not this could be the cause of the failure,it's been in a accident/knocked previously?
Contact MK Sportscars for new parts,or U2U user Danny Keenan on here,he runs MK cars
Yeah this happened when it failed
No accident before.
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CosKev3
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| posted on 7/2/16 at 08:19 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by SevenGer
quote:
Originally posted by CosKev3
Oh dear.
Wishbone tube failures have been seen like that before,usaully down to the weld in the ERW tube used to make the bush tube splitting open.
To be honest looking at the state of the bushes and the wishbone the car has been seriously neglected,and seen a lot of rain/wet weather use.
The wishbone is bent too,did this happen when it failed?
If not this could be the cause of the failure,it's been in a accident/knocked previously?
Contact MK Sportscars for new parts,or U2U user Danny Keenan on here,he runs MK cars
Yeah this happened when it failed
No accident before.
IMO then it's down to being neglected/lack of maintenance.
If the previous owner was using it through the winter etc they should of maintained the bushes better.
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Slimy38
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| posted on 7/2/16 at 08:41 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by CosKev3
To be honest looking at the state of the bushes
That's where I was looking too, rusty crush tubes. Definitely +1 to the upgrade to stainless.
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BenTyreman
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| posted on 7/2/16 at 08:44 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by CosKev3
IMO then it's down to being neglected/lack of maintenance.
If the previous owner was using it through the winter etc they should of maintained the bushes better.
IMO, this is complete bollocks. How exactly should you maintain the bushes better? The provided mild steel crush tube is not fit for purpose for a
road car unless you only drive on sunny days and swerve round the puddles. I had the exact same failure on the back wishbone and have since fitted
stainless crush tubes. I drive year round and have had no problems since.
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CosKev3
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| posted on 7/2/16 at 08:52 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by BenTyreman
quote:
Originally posted by CosKev3
IMO then it's down to being neglected/lack of maintenance.
If the previous owner was using it through the winter etc they should of maintained the bushes better.
IMO, this is complete bollocks. How exactly should you maintain the bushes better? The provided mild steel crush tube is not fit for purpose for a
road car unless you only drive on sunny days and swerve round the puddles. I had the exact same failure on the back wishbone and have since fitted
stainless crush tubes. I drive year round and have had no problems since.
If you know you've got mild steel bush tubes and you use the car all year around remove them,clean up and re grease after winter,better
maintained bushes.
Not rocket science you tool 
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BenTyreman
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| posted on 7/2/16 at 09:20 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by CosKev3
quote:
Originally posted by BenTyreman
quote:
Originally posted by CosKev3
IMO then it's down to being neglected/lack of maintenance.
If the previous owner was using it through the winter etc they should of maintained the bushes better.
IMO, this is complete bollocks. How exactly should you maintain the bushes better? The provided mild steel crush tube is not fit for purpose for a
road car unless you only drive on sunny days and swerve round the puddles. I had the exact same failure on the back wishbone and have since fitted
stainless crush tubes. I drive year round and have had no problems since.
If you know you've got mild steel bush tubes and you use the car all year around remove them,clean up and re grease after winter,better
maintained bushes.
Not rocket science you tool
And how many times can you clean them up before they are slack as knackers in the polybush? Do you take all your suspension off your daily drive after
every winter as well? Perhaps your being reckless only doing it once a year. Two or three times would be better.
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CosKev3
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| posted on 7/2/16 at 09:29 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by BenTyreman
quote:
Originally posted by CosKev3
quote:
Originally posted by BenTyreman
quote:
Originally posted by CosKev3
IMO then it's down to being neglected/lack of maintenance.
If the previous owner was using it through the winter etc they should of maintained the bushes better.
IMO, this is complete bollocks. How exactly should you maintain the bushes better? The provided mild steel crush tube is not fit for purpose for a
road car unless you only drive on sunny days and swerve round the puddles. I had the exact same failure on the back wishbone and have since fitted
stainless crush tubes. I drive year round and have had no problems since.
If you know you've got mild steel bush tubes and you use the car all year around remove them,clean up and re grease after winter,better
maintained bushes.
Not rocket science you tool
And how many times can you clean them up before they are slack as knackers in the polybush? Do you take all your suspension off your daily drive after
every winter as well? Perhaps your being reckless only doing it once a year. Two or three times would be better.
There are no poly bushes on my daily driver clever dick
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BenTyreman
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| posted on 7/2/16 at 09:40 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by CosKev3
quote:
Originally posted by BenTyreman
quote:
Originally posted by CosKev3
quote:
Originally posted by BenTyreman
quote:
Originally posted by CosKev3
IMO then it's down to being neglected/lack of maintenance.
If the previous owner was using it through the winter etc they should of maintained the bushes better.
IMO, this is complete bollocks. How exactly should you maintain the bushes better? The provided mild steel crush tube is not fit for purpose for a
road car unless you only drive on sunny days and swerve round the puddles. I had the exact same failure on the back wishbone and have since fitted
stainless crush tubes. I drive year round and have had no problems since.
If you know you've got mild steel bush tubes and you use the car all year around remove them,clean up and re grease after winter,better
maintained bushes.
Not rocket science you tool
And how many times can you clean them up before they are slack as knackers in the polybush? Do you take all your suspension off your daily drive after
every winter as well? Perhaps your being reckless only doing it once a year. Two or three times would be better.
There are no poly bushes on my daily driver clever dick
My point is that the mild steel is not a suitable option for anybody who wants to drive there car most of the year. Some of my original crush tubes
looked like poo after only a couple of years. If I ground that corrosion back to smooth, they would rattle in the polybushes. I have had stainless
ones fitted for 5 years and they are still as good as new, even after driving 1000s of miles through rain, snow, ice and salted roads.
Of course, if I snap a wishbone next week, feel free to be the first to say "I told you so".
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BenTyreman
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| posted on 7/2/16 at 09:50 PM |
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To answer the original question, I have had no issues with the strength of the original MK wishbones. I have also added grease nipples to the
polybushes to allow them to be topped up periodically without having to completely disassemble. My snapped wishbone has been welded back together with
no further problems. I personally have had the best results with black molybdenum grease.
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Bluemoon
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| posted on 7/2/16 at 09:52 PM |
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1) This has been seen before (but there are a lot of MK's out there, and its not just an MK issue).
2) Stainless steel replacement crush tubes are a good idea, there is a chap on ebay that will make them to measure.
3) Replace wishbones, MK should be able to sort you out, this is wise as it's likely the other bones are in a fatigued state.
4) Make sure the crush tube fits the brackets properly so the brackets don't pinch the poly bushes when you refit.
5) Grease bush tube before fitting.
5) Make sure they don't bind once fitted you should be able to move with you hand but they will probably have sufficient friction that they will
not droop under only the wishbones weight. (Any suspension squeaking is not a good sign, the bushes are binding, and need re lubricating OR the crush
tube is to short (or bushes need trimming in length).
You will need to strip and re-grease from time to time as the grease washes out from the bush, you may wish to consider grease nipples. Return of
squeaks == binding time to strip and re-lubricate. Should view this as a service item.
BenTyreman: What size of grease nipple did you use? the smallest I can find is M5, thinking of doing the same soon..
Dan
[Edited on 7/2/16 by Bluemoon]
[Edited on 7/2/16 by Bluemoon]
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britishtrident
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| posted on 8/2/16 at 09:06 AM |
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I did research on the most suitable grease for poly bushes there are waterproof silicone greases that have enhanced lubrication additives made for
use by mountain bikers and motorcycle offroaders that are ideal for the job.
There is no reason why the wishbone shouldn't be repaired by welding in a new tube I wouldn't consider it a design fault-
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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prawnabie
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| posted on 8/2/16 at 09:08 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
I did research on the most suitable grease for poly bushes there are waterproof silicone greases that have enhanced lubrication additives made for
use by mountain bikers and motorcycle offroaders that are ideal for the job.
There is no reason why the wishbone shouldn't be repaired by welding in a new tube I wouldn't consider it a design fault-
Apart from it being bent
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nick205
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| posted on 8/2/16 at 10:24 AM |
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Interesting.
I considered grease nipples on my MK Indy, but concluded drilling and tapping holes in the wishbones tubes was a bad idea so didn't. I did
however take them apart each winter and apply fresh grease to the bush inners. The mild steel crush tubes seemed to hold up fine despite some wet
weather driving (and soaking of my good self).
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garyt
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| posted on 8/2/16 at 01:03 PM |
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As said above it seems that the bush tube parted along the seam, there is good advices elsewhere and in the book to ensure that said seam is against
the wishbone tube within the fishmouth,so that the welding is either side of the seam preventing such failures.
remember we are not mad just creatively insane !!!!!
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jacko
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| posted on 8/2/16 at 01:23 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by BenTyreman
To answer the original question, I have had no issues with the strength of the original MK wishbones. I have also added grease nipples to the
polybushes to allow them to be topped up periodically without having to completely disassemble. My snapped wishbone has been welded back together with
no further problems. I personally have had the best results with black molybdenum grease.
I am interested to know where you fitted the grease nipples to my under standing its the crush tube to the nylon bush that needs greasing
have you any photos iwe can look at
jacko
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Bluemoon
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| posted on 8/2/16 at 07:48 PM |
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ditto..
I think there are two options to fit grease nipples, direct in the wishbone tube between the two bush half's, the other is to drill out the M12
bolt with a small hole and fit a grease-nipple to the head of the bolt, cross drill through crush tube and bolt with a small ~2mm hole to allow the
grease out into the centre between he poly bushes.
Bolt drilling looks a PITA.
Putting them in the wishbone tube is probably easiest..
Dan
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myke pocock
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| posted on 8/2/16 at 10:51 PM |
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Simple answer to one comment is to use seamless tube then. ERW will ALWAYS have a weak point regardless of the welding process. I would have thought
that any undue, suddden stress (ie; pot hole) would put a potentail catastrophic stress on ERW. Why take the chance for a few quid? When I built mine
I used seamless and skimmed the ID to the necessary dimension for the inserts. I certainly didnt use Colin Chapmans ethos of building it within a
gnats todger of failure! I have diminishing years to go and fancy being here for all of them!!!!
[Edited on 8/2/16 by myke pocock]
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Bluemoon
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| posted on 9/2/16 at 07:43 AM |
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^^ I would agree snag is this is on a bought kit, so most don't have a welder or the skill to replace the tubes. All the failures I have seen to
date appear to involve very rusty crush tubes, and supposed fatigue so in these cases CDS will probably still lead to failure eventually probably at
the wishbone/polybush tube weld even with CDS.
If I made them myself I would also use CDS.
We would need to do the calculations to figure out if the shock loads would be sufficient to cause the failure.
Dan
[Edited on 9/2/16 by Bluemoon]
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CosKev3
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| posted on 9/2/16 at 07:35 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by garyt
As said above it seems that the bush tube parted along the seam, there is good advices elsewhere and in the book to ensure that said seam is against
the wishbone tube within the fishmouth,so that the welding is either side of the seam preventing such failures.
j
Looking at the pics I don't think it's the ERW seam that's split,it's split along the weld Where it was welded to the wishbone
tube.
This is why it's pointless using CDS,as you are putting two welds along the bush tube anyway,just make sure the ERW seam is inbetween these
two.
If you look at Bentyremans pics of his failed wishbone you can see the ERW seam is inside the welds,but it's broke on the welds to the
wishbones.
 
Broken end of wishbone
 
Broken wishbone
IMO the rust/corrosion is the main issue,as both cars wishbones that have failed in this thread both look like they've either lived near the
seaside or took regular swims in the sea!!! 
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motorcycle_mayhem
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| posted on 9/2/16 at 08:03 PM |
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If the car was to be used in harsh environments (i.e. more than the trip down to Tesco in summer), I'd be looking at rubber bushes. The outer
and inner sleeve are fixed, it's the rubber that takes up the movement. You could even argue that the rising spring rate might be very useful on
a pothole surfer.
The roads around here are shite, it's not just the surface (or lack of) the mountainous speed humps and the black slime all over it, the traffic
and enforcement prevents any exuberant activity, so why not rubber bushes on a road car?
But yes, corrosion and neglect will destroy anything, so will buying things down to a price instead of a quality. Any moving joint that can't
will simply strain anything attached to it....
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SevenGer
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| posted on 18/2/16 at 11:00 AM |
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Hey thanks for ur help.
I will upgrade to stainless steel and will buy all wishbones and bushes new.
http://www.rallydesign.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=1375_1594_1600_1601&products_id=11840 what do u think about this offer? does it fit ? and what
about the quality?
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 18/2/16 at 02:55 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by garyt
As said above it seems that the bush tube parted along the seam, there is good advices elsewhere and in the book to ensure that said seam is against
the wishbone tube within the fishmouth,so that the welding is either side of the seam preventing such failures.
Nothing to do with the seam, it's simply down to the crush tube rusting which means the polybush can no longer rotate. This puts a lot of
cyclic stress on the bush tube as the suspension moves and it inevitably fails. There have been numerous examples of such failures posted on here
over the years.
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CosKev3
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| posted on 18/2/16 at 04:48 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by SevenGer
Hey thanks for ur help.
I will upgrade to stainless steel and will buy all wishbones and bushes new.
http://www.rallydesign.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=1375_1594_1600_1601&products_id=11840 what do u think about this offer? does it fit ? and what
about the quality?
Have you spoke with MK cars?
Not sure if those Rally design ones fit,you will need to find out if the MK uses locost dimensions.
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