Hi,

My plan is to spray my scuttle, bonnet, nose cone, rear arches and cycle wings in either plain black or gray and then laquer everything with some silver metal flake in the laquer.

I am no sprayer, but can borrow a compressor.

How hard would it be for me to spray everything in the base colour and then take the parts to a bodyshop to be laquered, or is the laquer bit easy enough?

Anyone know roughly how much paint I will need for the base coat and the lacquer?

Cheers,

Pat...

a litre of each will be plenty, the tricky bit is getting the base coat on even .

if your using metal flake youll need an anti static strip and a fog light fitted underneath your car, oh and furry dice

So after sanding everything down:

1 - 3 coats of primer rubbing down between each coat with 400 grade wet n dry.

1 - 3 coats of cellulose base coat mixed with cellulose thinners (50-50 for 1st coat, 40-60 for 2nd coat and 30-70 for final coat - 2nd number being the paint).

1 - 3 coats of cellulose laquer mixed with cellulose thinners as above.

How does that sound?

Pat...

i wuoldnt bother with cellulose ,go for 2pack surfacer (primer)and single pack base coat and laquer. if you really want the glitter then put it in your first laquer coat and not in any other to give depth to the shine. the base coat if tis a metallic finish give it a good first coat then flat with 1000grade hit it again then leave it for laquer.its ambitious for a first go but its all in the prep.
if you have the room hang everything up to paint it as anything flat will get covered in poo if your doing it at home.
if the compressor is under 3hp/14cfm keep aneye on the pressure set your gun for 40psi and if the compressor kicks in stop spraying til tis full again.
i shouldnt worry too much about thinner ratios as youll have to flat and polish the laquer anyway

quote:

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1 - 3 coats of cellulose base coat mixed with cellulose thinners (50-50 for 1st coat, 40-60 for 2nd coat and 30-70 for final coat - 2nd number being the paint).

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Pat, if you were thinking of doing it in your garage, then forget it, integral garage is not good for spraying(i know from experience!!),i thought it should be more thinners:less paint on your final coats aswell

Ray

if it wasnt being painted in a garage then yes perhaps thin the final laquer coat but as there WILL be lots of bits to flat out of the laquer then its not worth it

Yes - got that bit with the thinners/paint the wrong way round.

Froggy - isn't that 2 pack and single pack the nasty stuff and cost more?

Ray - thinking of hiring a bloddy big extractor fan and covering the walls and floor in big plastic sheets. Was it the smell that was the problem?

Pat...

Pat,

You will need 1+1 litre etching high build primer, 1 1/2 litres of polyester basecoat and 1 litre thinner, 1 1/2 litres of single pack clear.

2pack will kill you, a large extractor fan will just suck dust onto your work, and metalflake in the lacquer is a beast of a job, even holoflakes are difficult.

If you base up the car and take it to a bodyshop for clearing, you will have to do it in 20 mins as this is the critical recoat time, clear it in more than this time, it will all peel off in about 3 months like sunburn.

If you go the holoflake route, put down a black basecoat, and spray with flake colour of your choice, remember my wheels!

2 pack surfacer is officially nasty but its overblown because of a minute amount of iso cyanatre in it . it wont give you any probs with fibreglass and gives a good thick primer coat so you should only need two coats before base coat .
you will need a mask anyway as celly thinners hasnt exactly got vitamins in it has it!
2k primer is about £13 a litre with activator and base coat is around £10 per half litre mixed, base coat thinners £6 laquer around £12 litre
the best finish you can hope for is orange peel in the laquer which means you have plenty on to flat off with 1200 wet and dry.
cellulose is a pain to work with as its very thin and takes plenty of coats to get a good shine .modern base coat shells off much quicker so less chance of bits in the paint. as far as mixing i use the drip method which is a welding rod dipped in the pot and pulled out should go drip drip drip as you say it will be fine.
plastic sheets wet the floor and dont have the gun pressure and youl be ok but you will have to flat and polish everything as you would with celly.
reckon about £80 for paint and bits like tack rags ,stopper,tape.
take your time with the primer and get plenty of laquer on and it,ll be fine after flatting farecla g3 then g6 and wax ,job done

Stunned silence

is that directed at me?

I have two friends that worked with 2 pack that didn't take proper precautions . Both are off work for that reason! DON'T TAKE CHANCES.

i wasnt advocating drinking the stuff! im sure that non iso filler primers are available but for a one off with a decent mask i cant see a problem.

Thats why you cannot get life insurance, my sympathy to your family

quote:

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Originally posted by froggy
2 pack surfacer is officially nasty but its overblown because of a minute amount of iso cyanatre in it .

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i think i did say use a good mask though!

surely the same goes for polyester based paints then and fettling fibreglass too?

I agree with most of Davids post, but the isocyanate IS a real problem, it is cumulative. Your body has a certain threshold of tollerance to it. It may be 250mg per 1000g or it may be 1mg per 1000g, and there is only one way to find out.

Especially at this time of year I am a bit sensitive (sorry froggy), I have taken presents to a 6 year old and an 8 year old who don't have a Daddy, he died when they were 3 and 5 years old at the age of 32. We tried to make the last 9 months of his life the best, but nothing would compensate for having him back, it may not have been isocyanate, but a sprayer for the last 8 years of his life, and lung cancer in a non smoker is very unusual.

DON'T use isocyanate at home, you should't be able get hold of it, unless you are a registered bodyshop, but if the local supplier does supplier does sell it to you, I personally would report them to the local EPA officer in the council.

The average length of a book build is 2 1/2 years, you could die in less.

Live to enjoy you car, don't use 2K at home





Merry Christmas

Mark

quote:

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Originally posted by Mark Allanson
If you base up the car and take it to a bodyshop for clearing, you will have to do it in 20 mins as this is the critical recoat time, clear it in more than this time, it will all peel off in about 3 months like sunburn.

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quote:

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Originally posted by froggy
i think i did say use a good mask though!

surely the same goes for polyester based paints then and fettling fibreglass too?

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What makes the metal flake so hard to spray???

Can I put it in the clear coat instead of the laquer?

If I give up with the metal flake idea, will I still need any clear coat or lacquer???

Pat...

quote:

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Originally posted by stevebubs

quote:

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Originally posted by Mark Allanson
If you base up the car and take it to a bodyshop for clearing, you will have to do it in 20 mins as this is the critical recoat time, clear it in more than this time, it will all peel off in about 3 months like sunburn.

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They lacquer that days work, then scotch it back and start again, I don't think the fancy art work tends to get the same day to day wear that the avaerage car gets
Why is it that bikes etc with expensive airbrush art don't peal? These can take weeks between base coat, graphics being applied and final lacquer.....

Is there something special they do, or am I just not grasping something fundamentally different?

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Spraying is a black art and best left to those who know what they are doing and have the right kit to do it with.

fair comments 2k isnt for home use but i think the original thread was about painting at home in general. the point i was trying to make was that a lot of us dont have the budget for professional paint finishing so home painting is something that must be considered and you can get reasonable results with basic kit.

I should also add that I lost a neighbour to lung disease a few years back - he specialised in spraying dinky toys in company livery for promotional events. He was very bad with health and safety, using all sorts of paint in his airbrush, without a mask. These paints included 2-pack iso-cyanide etch primer. which he used a lot.

He left a wife and 2 teenage daughters.

DJ

quote:

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Originally posted by Triton
Spraying is a black art and best left to those who know what they are doing and have the right kit to do it with.

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A friend of mine who is a couple of years older than me was a painter/bodywork man all his life. He wore his airfed mask for most jobs but would do a bit of blowing in without it as it was only a 2 minute job. It's now a 2 hour and 1 inhaler job for him to walk the 1/2 mile to the pub.

Evil stuff that 2 pack paint

Is ANYONE now in any doubt about the dangers of using 2K at home?

So what are the real options for DIY is there anything elts other then cele or 2k?

Celly is getting very hard to get hold of now as the VOC content is VERY high.

I would use a 2 part (thats PART not pack) etching high build, which is very easy to use and sticks to anything, put it down in moderate coats with 20 mins between coats, and gently flat (dry 400) to a smooth finish. Use standard polyester basecoat which is even easier to apply, you would have to really try to get a run in it, and give it a drop coat is using metallic. Followed by a 1K (ready to use out of the tin) clear coat, don't try to bury anything with this as it will crack if too thick, 2 coats will normally give you a good gloss straight from the gun, but I would give it 4 coats incase you have to nib any 'errors' out of the finish. 6 coats will probably craze in a few months so don't go mad.

So Mark,

Is that the best way to do it as you last described as that sounded do-able for us home people.

Can't we just add a sprinkle of metal flake to the clear coat?

The other option would be for me to make moulds from my parts and make new parts in black gel coat or wet lay carbon! This would be a bit more expensive though.

Pat...

quote:

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Originally posted by Mark
They lacquer that days work, then scotch it back and start again, I don't think the fancy art work tends to get the same day to day wear that the avaerage car gets

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Ok...back to basics here (In other words, time to show my ignorance)

On American Hotrod and the like, they spray the car with colour then take it out and flat it back before applying clearcoat. This flatting takes more than 20 minutes....

Surely the cars they spray see the road and don't peel?

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k33ts - 26/12/05 at 10:58 PM

ive done a couple of spray jobs with no previous experience with really good results.
dont let them put you of to much the worst that will happen is youll have to rub it down and start again.
make sure your undercoat is as smooth as you would like the finished article to be i flat it with 800 wet and dry.
i used standard polyester base a couple of coats will do.

then 3 coats of non isocyanate 2k clear leaving at leats 30 mins between coats depending on room temp.

then leave for a day or two then wet flat with 1200 then 2000 them mop with g3 or similar then mop hand glaze.

the reason i decided to have a go myself is because of my budget local paint shops round here want from £500 upwards and im sure my work is be better than some of these outfits.

and when it does come right youll get a great deal of self satisfaction.

go to your local autopaint international dealer theyll be able to tell you about metal flake or recomend something similar its probably not as hard as you think.

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Triton - 26/12/05 at 11:18 PM

You could always go mad by adding stuff to the gel coat Pat...........

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Avoneer - 26/12/05 at 11:24 PM

Allready got the parts though Mark.

Still pondering on taking moulds from everything and remaking them lighter, in plain black and throwing flake in the gell???

Too much bloody work though.

Maybe doing it with Halfords cans is now an option as a good 1st time spray job!

Might just spray the whole thing in grey bloody primer and leave it at that!

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Triton - 26/12/05 at 11:32 PM

Paint it white then plaster it in stickers

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stevebubs - 27/12/05 at 01:10 AM

Pat,

The only warning I will give you is that dark colours (especially black) will show up all the imperfections in a paint job.

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stevebubs - 27/12/05 at 01:14 AM

quote:

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Originally posted by Avoneer
Might just spray the whole thing in grey bloody primer and leave it at that!

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That's not such a bad idea. Jim ran his pheonix for quite a while in primer and it actually looked pretty good...in fact, here's a pic of the man himself at Le Mans '03

Jim's Pheonix In Primer
Advantage of this is you can then save the pennies for the spray job next winter!


[Edited on 27/12/05 by stevebubs]

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cornishrob - 27/12/05 at 11:29 AM

I have done quite a bit of spraying, and its a pretty difficult thing to get right.


I haven't the time to read the last 4 pages so dont know the advice given.

But to emphaise on one point i was nearly taken ill after spraying with cans in the my garage with the doors open and a breath mask on. I now spray with 2 pack which contains more harmful stuff than the cellulose i was using at the time and to do that i have a sealed full body suit with a none too cheap gas mask.

personal safety is second to know and when dealing with this sort of things dont take the chance!

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Avoneer - 27/12/05 at 11:55 AM

I can see this doing the job for my level or expertise:

Pat...
Rescued attachment earlex-spray-paint-system.jpg

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froggy - 27/12/05 at 11:59 AM

a good all round mask is a 3m with the three filters in .two big cheek filters anda small rectangular one over the nose ,cant remember the name of it but it is a tight fit over the face and cuts any smells out when painting so its pretty good. sure i paid about £50 for the mask and a few filter packs. there is a small reservoir in the base of the mask which fills with water after wearing it for half an hour. when i did work in a bodyshop the airfed masks were ok but you could still smell the paint when wearing one .

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Avoneer - 27/12/05 at 01:57 PM

I've got one of the posh 3M ones, with three filters, but they aren't replaceable.

Supposed to stop near enough anything though and has a complicated strap system and sticks to your face and makes you look like a fighter pilot.

Any comments on the electric gun???

Pat...

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Peteff - 27/12/05 at 02:19 PM

Is that a HVLP set? They work well, the one I used a long time ago did anyway. I thought you meant an electric spraygun , they're alright for creosoting fences.

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Avoneer - 27/12/05 at 02:33 PM

Yep, that's the one - HVLP.

£50 Argos.

For my skills, think it will do the job just fine.

I can get a nice finish from a spray can so this must be the next stage up.

Pat...

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Mark Allanson - 27/12/05 at 08:06 PM

Just to add to ther confusion!
Rescued attachment SilverHoloflakes.JPG

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Triton - 27/12/05 at 08:10 PM

Mark,
Have you got snow?

Cheers
Mark

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Mark Allanson - 27/12/05 at 08:29 PM

Psychedelic dandruff

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Avoneer - 27/12/05 at 08:43 PM

Hi Mark.

Personally, I think it's gonna be easiest for me and my location and gun to use cellulose primer, cellulose black or gray base coat and then cellulose laquer with some of that metal flake in it.

How bad can it be if done carefully and in thin coats???

Worse than Tiger GRP ???

Pat...

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Mark Allanson - 27/12/05 at 09:15 PM

Pat, if you want to use holoflakes (they are on ebay right now), use the 2part etch hibuild, black polyester base, and then give 2 coats of flake RTU (ready to use) clear, and then 3 coats of pure clear on top. Mix the holoflakes as rich as you can as the coats want to be as much flake as you can lay down in the least amount of clear. If the mix is weak, you will shear the flake and it will look awful.

Use as much dry heat as you can between coats, I expect these new halogen heaters will be ideal (I havent used one yet).


The holoflakes are translucent and separate the light passing throuch them like a CD does - VERY EYE CATCHING! The black basecoat is invisible behind the flakes, I tried silver on my wheels and lost some of the effect. There a several colours available, and all look spectacular

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Avoneer - 27/12/05 at 09:29 PM

Now you're really scaring me.

Maybe metal flake is a bit ambitious!

How about a simple metallic grey?

Just thought - will I really need the etch as I am only spraying the GRP???

Won't I be ok with the cellulose primer, cellulose base and cellulose laquer???

It's just much easier for me to get hold of as well.

Pat...

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Triton - 27/12/05 at 09:36 PM

I thought grp needed etch stuff that can flex

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Mark Allanson - 27/12/05 at 09:37 PM

Not scarey really, the only bit where you could cock it up is the application of the flakes in lacquer, easier than metal flake though. The mix has to be thick enough to stop it running, if you mix it too thick, just add a bit more lacquer. always try it out on a test card first (cardboard box!)

Don't use metalflake though, it is heavy and opaque, so runs really easily on vertical faces (so bad that they used to apply to tacky lacquer with a cut open polythene bag, and then bury with clear)

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Avoneer - 27/12/05 at 11:08 PM

Mark - are all the choices you recommend suitable for home diy spraying with all but a good quality mask, easy to obtain and not to expensive?

Pat...

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Mark Allanson - 27/12/05 at 11:20 PM

Pat, all the least dangerous available, the easiest to apply without mega bucks of equipment, you could use what I have recommended in a lockup with no fans, but dry heat would be a real advantage

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Avoneer - 28/12/05 at 12:00 AM

Thanks Mark - I'm listening now!

So, shopping list:

1 litre of "2 part etching high build primer"

1 1/2 litres of "black polyester basecoat"

1 1/2 litres of "single pack clear" (appropriate to the basecoat) - is this the laquer???

1 litre of thinners (appropriate to the single pack clear)

A litlle sprinkling of hundreds and thousands.

How does that sound?

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Mark Allanson - 28/12/05 at 12:19 PM

quote:

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Originally posted by Avoneer
Thanks Mark - I'm listening now!

So, shopping list:

1 litre of "2 part etching high build primer"

1 1/2 litres of "black polyester basecoat"

1 1/2 litres of "single pack clear" (appropriate to the basecoat) - is this the laquer???

1 litre of thinners (appropriate to the single pack clear)

A litlle sprinkling of hundreds and thousands.

How does that sound?

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You need 1+1litre of etch as it is 2 part)

You need the thinner for the basecoat (MS thinners or equivalent) GET RATIO FROM THE SUPPLIER

No thinners for the clear, it is RTU (ready to use)


Spangly bits, try
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7949376245&ssPageName=MERC_VI_RSCC_Pr4_PcY_BIN_Stores_IT

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Avoneer - 28/12/05 at 12:51 PM

Thanks Mark.

Will I get away with the hollo's in the first coat of clear?

Got a bit of work/modyfying to do on the bodywork, but once it's all rubbed down with 400 ready for the primer - I'll come on here first and ask!

Hoping if I do it step at a time and on here- will help anyone else willing to try.

Pat...

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Mark Allanson - 28/12/05 at 01:36 PM

Holo's in the first coat of clear should be ok as long as you can get the coverage without getting runs or shears, personally I would chicken out and do as much as I could with the first coat, and use the second as a touching in coat. Then bury the flakes with pure clear after a bit of a flash off time.

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Avoneer - 28/12/05 at 01:40 PM

Sorry for all the questions:

What's flashing off?

And do you mean do the 1st layer of clear with the holo, but a very light coat and then a 2nd very light coat woth holo?

Pat...

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PaulBuz - 28/12/05 at 05:24 PM

I painted my car at home in a small single garage.
That said it was a LOT of work & hassle.
I lined the walls with polythene after cleaning out.
After bodywork prep. & priming, I sprayed 2 medium coats of base followed by a drop coat as recommended by Mark.
As for amounts ,I used 2.5l of java blue pearl base & 5l of ready to spray clear.
Primer & basecoat were sprayed using a m/mart gun with my comp.
The clear was sprayed using a cheap HVLP setup from Argos.This gave a good coverage as the clear is quite viscous out of the can. you do get some peel, nothing that can't be cut out with wet/dry & compound.
This is my first attempt at spraying anything, & if I am honest ,I don't think I would do it again,even though it turned out ok
I funds are tight, go for it. Just take your time
One last point, listen to what Mark is saying, I have been following all of his tips on spraying for quite some time & am sure that my finished result is a result of tring to apply them as best as I could.
Rescued attachment ebay stuff 173.jpg

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PaulBuz - 28/12/05 at 05:25 PM

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PaulBuz - 28/12/05 at 05:25 PM

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cornishrob - 28/12/05 at 06:12 PM

that paint looks good paul, very good for a first go home effort espically in a single garage.

The paint looks a pretty colour too.



I think mark has covered all the point on painting, may be in contact with you myself before i take on anything too ambitious.

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