nealg
|
| posted on 16/11/06 at 02:27 PM |
|
|
Designing the perfect upright
Can any one design an ally upright
I am a pattern maker by trade and are willing
to model in cad and cnc the patterns free of charge.I can also get them cast at a local foundry in LM25(at a cost),but will need help for maching
them.
I also need a supplier for the stub axels.
Any one out there interested
|
|
|
|
|
liam.mccaffrey
|
| posted on 16/11/06 at 02:31 PM |
|
|
lm25; isnt that what k series blocks are made from
Build Blog
Build Photo Album
|
|
|
NS Dev
|
| posted on 16/11/06 at 03:09 PM |
|
|
What sort of cost for casting them?
I'm very interested!!
Stubs are avaialble off the shelf in threaded from from several suppliers, Randall Motorsport do them for £23.50 each
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
|
|
|
nealg
|
| posted on 16/11/06 at 03:43 PM |
|
|
The price will be between 12 and 15 pounds
per kilo,so it all depends on the design of the upright.They will also need heat treating I dont
now the price for this at present but the more
the cheaper
|
|
|
Syd Bridge
|
| posted on 16/11/06 at 05:10 PM |
|
|
The thread on ali uprights on the MNR section is deleted. Pity.
Ali uprights, properly designed for impact and longevity in mind, and age hardening crystallisation, will end up near as heavy as Cortina items.
Much better to make your design and patterns for steel. Ends up lighter if properly done, and with none of the fatigue issues of aluminium.
Cheers,
Syd.
|
|
|
Hammerhead
|
| posted on 16/11/06 at 06:38 PM |
|
|
have a look at lotus elise uprights, they are aluminium, I reckon they are cnc milled rather than cast though. I'd have a go at the design if
you get stuck, but I am a product designer rather than an engineer. Anyway let me know if you want me involved.
Cheers.
Steven
|
|
|
peterriley2
|
| posted on 16/11/06 at 09:48 PM |
|
|
rorty did cad designs of sierra uprights (same as cortina) to be made up as jigsaw puzzles. i think he was giving the cad drawings free so id check
his posts or do a search for uprights. they werent corrected geometry or anyhing though, he will design a better geometry front end for use with vw
golf parts, but needs people to size the parts. look on 'new locost front end' on the left hand side of the main screen, about 3rd under
longest running threads.
Joel
If you dont respect yourself, dont expect respect from anyone else
Live your dreams, dont dream your life
Women only want you for one thing- everything!
|
|
|
short track 123
|
| posted on 18/11/06 at 12:01 PM |
|
|
Uprights
nealg
You have U2U
|
NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
|
MikeRJ
|
| posted on 18/11/06 at 09:54 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Hammerhead
have a look at lotus elise uprights, they are aluminium,
Good point, but I thought they looked ever so fragile when I first saw them, and sure enough it's recommended that you reinforce the alloy
uprights (at least on the S1) using available steel brackets if you are going to use them on track.
|
|
|
andyd
|
| posted on 18/11/06 at 11:02 PM |
|
|
I know over time aluminium alloys can become fragile but what about if they have been hard anodised?
See here
"The hardcoat layer is equivalent to one of the hardest materials on earth: ruby"
I've also read that the hardcoat process can make the alloy as hard as steel. Would this not negate the usual fracture issues associated with
untreated alloy?
Also see here
Also if the uprights are CNC'd from solid billet of a good strong alloy (6082) to begin with, would this also increase the robustness?
Andy
|
|
|
DIY Si
|
| posted on 18/11/06 at 11:06 PM |
|
|
I think the coating process is just that, more of a wear resistance thing. It won' remove the fracture issue, which would start to occur in the
centre, if I remember how it works right.
“Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
Sun Tzu, The Art of War
My new blog: http://spritecave.blogspot.co.uk/
|
|
|
Browser
|
| posted on 19/11/06 at 10:03 AM |
|
|
Hardness is not the same as fatigue resistance. They could be as hard as you like but still crack due to age.
|
|
|
Doug68
|
| posted on 19/11/06 at 12:25 PM |
|
|
I'm using C5 Corvette uprights, they can be had on eBay for ~$100 a pop. There's only 2 types the front left is also the rear right and
vis-versa
These are forged alloy with a bolt in bearing - stub axle sub assembly (this comes as one lump when replaced)
Without the bearing they weigh 2.2kg (includes top ball joint) and with the wheel bearing they are 6.6kg a throw. How does that compare against a
Cortina or Granada upright?
The bearing / stub axle assemblies can be had as Timken parts for ~$170 each either front or rear and come with the ABS sensor.
I have no doubt that these are strong enough for the job.
I guess I've got 2 points here...
1. Theres strong production alloy parts available that don't cost a fortune.
2. Because of the web and eBay you can look further afield than the local wreckers / breakers for interesting items.
BTW 'Billet' means a big lump of metal 'Machined from billet' means machined from a big lump of metal. It means absolutely
nothing in terms of the strength of the part.
for large machined alloy parts in the aircraft business they will often machine off the outside 1" or so all around a billet simply because the
strength / grain structure is not consistent across the part due to the way the grains form in the material as it cools.
Most all of the serious high strength requirement alloy parts on aircraft are forged wherever possible.
None of which answers the original question, One way to go might be to look for parts of similar construction that you intend that are known to be
able to take a beating. The Corvette may be one place to look, or possibly something low production like a 6R4 metro, RS200 Escort, TVR or DeTomasso
(I'm guessing here) where there mightn't have been the quantity made to warrant forging.
Doug.
|
|
|
scotmac
|
| posted on 20/11/06 at 06:54 PM |
|
|
Hmmm...here's one of those c5 uprights (for reference):
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320049510986
Here's another:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/97-04-c5-corvette-spindle-right-front_W0QQitemZ180051380879QQihZ008QQcategoryZ6763QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
They look pretty nice. Dont think they would work w/ my suspension geomety, tho. The steering arm looks about 2/5's of the way up the spindle,
whereas sierra ones are about 1/5 of the way up (atleast my raceleda based sierra ones are). So, i would have to move the steering rack
substantially!
-Scot
[Edited on 20/11/06 by scotmac]
|
|
|
bimbleuk
|
| posted on 21/11/06 at 10:01 AM |
|
|
RE: elise uprights
If I remember correctly they are made from extruded sections similar to the chassis rails.
Yes the early alloy uprights should be reinforced if used on track with semi or full slick tyres. The lower track rod mounting point fractures. The
later steel uprights are stronger and lighter!
|
|
|
andyd
|
| posted on 21/11/06 at 11:35 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by bimbleuk
The later steel uprights are stronger and lighter!
Do you have any pictures or diagrams per chance? I was designing mine with alloy in mind but obviously don't want them to fall apart after a
few miles. If I can achieve a similar weight using steel then I'll go for that instead.
Andy
|
|
|
Lippoman
|
| posted on 21/11/06 at 05:53 PM |
|
|
Elise Forged Steel upright
The forged steel upright is a much stronger and more rigid unit, but not lighter. They are 3,5 lbs heavier than the aluminium ones (total for 4
uprights).
More detailed info can be found in the following PDF (from page 11 on).
ELise Upright
[Edited on 21/11/06 by Lippoman]
[Edited on 21/11/06 by Lippoman]
|
|
|
Syd Bridge
|
| posted on 22/11/06 at 09:22 AM |
|
|
Well,Well, Well,
Halelujah Lord! At last someone has finally seen the light and decided that lightweight aluminium uprights are not suited for everyday road use!
And the mighty Lotus company at that!
They wouldn't have switched from Ali to steel for no good reason.
Cheers,
Syd.
|
|
|
Peteff
|
| posted on 22/11/06 at 12:00 PM |
|
|
It costs 30% less than the aluminium one, that's why they changed.  The aluminium looks more trick though and doesn't need painting so
it doesn't matter if it's you're going to die horribly in a mass of twisted metal as long as your cred stays high.
yours, Pete
I went into the RSPCA office the other day. It was so small you could hardly swing a cat in there.
|
|
|
MikeRJ
|
| posted on 22/11/06 at 01:13 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Peteff
It costs 30% less than the aluminium one, that's why they changed.
That's probably the main reason, but as said above it was found that the extruded alloy ones were marginal in terms of strength.
|
|
|
Doug68
|
| posted on 23/11/06 at 03:37 AM |
|
|
University learnings for make education of glorious community of Locost Builder...
http://www.forging.org/members/docs/pdf/FIERF-AISIFinalExecutiveSummarySept04.pdf
Not really a fair test given the sponsor of the work and selection of test parts but intersting non the less.
|
|
|
dnmalc
|
| posted on 23/11/06 at 08:26 PM |
|
|
with lots of people considering the use of Rorty's IRS had you considered making an equivalent rear upright. I am sure I'm not the onlyone
who might be interested.
|
|
|
nealg
|
| posted on 23/11/06 at 10:33 PM |
|
|
If someone will design a rear upright I will
cut the patterns at work but its the actual
machining of the cast uprights which I can not do
The main reason why I started the thread is
I am starting to design a 3 wheeler similar to
the vw gx3 so if there any designers out there
who can design some sort of rear hub assembly similar to the ducati 916 to hold a 18x9 wheel on a single sided swingarm let me know
Thanks
|
|
|
scotmac
|
| posted on 24/11/06 at 04:14 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Doug68
University learnings for make education of glorious community of Locost Builder...
http://www.forging.org/members/docs/pdf/FIERF-AISIFinalExecutiveSummarySept04.pdf
Not really a fair test given the sponsor of the work and selection of test parts but intersting non the less.
Right...a steel producer sponsoring the test, and making generic claims about the materials based on 3 very specific automotive items....all that
really can be said is that for those three items, the steel one was by far the strongest. Much more interesting to see a less biased comparison of the
metals themselves and their properties.
In general, it is my understanding that aluminum is
actually stronger than steel, for its weight...at least in certain uses. For example, both F1 and bicycles used aluminum for this exact reason, before
switching to carbon fiber.
Cheers, -sm
|
|
|
NS Dev
|
| posted on 24/11/06 at 08:39 AM |
|
|
No, not as simple as that I'm afraid!
Depends on what jointing processes are used, application, fatigue requirements etc etc etc.
benefits over a well designed steel structure are very minimal. The main problem with steel is using a small enough section to optimise the stresses
in it, sometimes needs an unfeasibly small sectional area to allow for jointing etc, in just the same way as ally can be extremely strong, but when
that alloy is welded it will fall apart! (in simple terms! )
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
|
|
|
.jpg)
