DaveFJ
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| posted on 20/6/05 at 10:59 AM |
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Mixing Copper and Cu/Nickel pipes
As the title says
is there any problem with mixing copper and copper/nickel brake pipes ?
Fitted the pipe kit from Tiger (copper) but then decided to change the design slightly and bought some new pipe for the job but got copper/nickel pipe
by mistake.
would it be OK to mix'n' match these pipes or do i need to replace all the copper ones ?
Cheers
Dave
"In Support of Help the Heroes" - Always
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 20/6/05 at 11:36 AM |
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Dave,
I can't imagine that there would be any problem with mixing the two. The cu-nickel pipe will look slightly different (sort-of grayer colour)
and will be a better material) but otherwise there's no difference.
cheers,
David
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britishtrident
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| posted on 20/6/05 at 12:05 PM |
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Should mix ok but personally I would never feel confident driving a car with copper brake pipes.
Cu-Ni-fe (ie "Cuniffer" is the best option.
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Alan B
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| posted on 20/6/05 at 12:16 PM |
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Agree with BT...should be Ok, but would go for Kunifer (I think it's spelt) all round if possible, it's much better...
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viatron
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| posted on 20/6/05 at 02:14 PM |
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/ixing both should be fi9ne, we used to mix when retubing ac condensors with no noticeable differential corrosion in service.
Mac
But agree that CUNI is far superior, if i remember correctley CuNi brake tube in the uk is CuNi 90/10 (percentages) 70/30 is better but probably
overkill and will also be a bit harder to work with.
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splitrivet
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| posted on 20/6/05 at 05:11 PM |
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I think the main thing you'll find is if your using a Clarke cheapo flare tool it dont like kunifer too much.Mind you that could just be the one
I'm using, while copper flared out perfectly.
Personally I would be more concerned with how it flared as to whether which is stronger but the flare is the first bit that will pop
Kunifer is easier to make a neater job of because its harder.
They are both to BSI so I cant see a problem.
Cheers,
Bob
[Edited on 20/6/05 by splitrivet]
I used to be a Werewolf but I'm alright nowwoooooooooooooo
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Rorty
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| posted on 21/6/05 at 04:23 AM |
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The problem with using copper tubing on a car, is that the vibrations and inevitable movement will work-harden the copper leading to fractures and
thus leaks.
That's why nickel and iron were alloyed with copper to make Kunifer which is specifically designed for automotive use.
It's not expensive to buy and has major safety implications.
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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DaveFJ
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| posted on 21/6/05 at 07:33 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by splitrivet
I think the main thing you'll find is if your using a Clarke cheapo flare tool it dont like kunifer too much.Mind you that could just be the one
I'm using, while copper flared out perfectly.
Personally I would be more concerned with how it flared as to whether which is stronger but the flare is the first bit that will pop
Kunifer is easier to make a neater job of because its harder.
They are both to BSI so I cant see a problem.
Cheers,
Bob
[Edited on 20/6/05 by splitrivet]
lots of practice last night - and no I can't get a good flare with the cheapo tool I am using 
as you say - it flares copper fine.....
Dave
"In Support of Help the Heroes" - Always
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NS Dev
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| posted on 21/6/05 at 12:35 PM |
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have said this to a few people but it is not nice to hear.......you need a proper flaring tool, a lever action one like the Sykes Pickavant or Automec
tools. I got one of these and it flares kunifer well and manages steel bundy pipe ok as well!
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splitrivet
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| posted on 21/6/05 at 03:43 PM |
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I cant honestly see the problem with copper,back in my fridge engineer days we used flared 1/4 copper and never had a problem with work hardening and
that had a thinner wall and some of the old condensing units used to vibrate like a bog house door in a force 10.
You takes yer pick Dave dodgy flare or remote chance of work hardening, I know what i'd go for.
Cheers,
Bob
[Edited on 21/6/05 by splitrivet]
I used to be a Werewolf but I'm alright nowwoooooooooooooo
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Rorty
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| posted on 21/6/05 at 09:32 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by splitrivet
...we used flared 1/4 copper and never had a problem with work hardening and that had a thinner wall and some of the old condensing units used to
vibrate like a bog house door in a force 10.
You takes yer pick Dave dodgy flare or remote chance of work hardening, I know what i'd go for.
Kunifer and similar manufacturers must be kicking themselves with that bit of information; all that time and research they've wasted! 
I think you'll find that copper lines are now illegal for brake systems and they must have based their decision on something other than the
colour of the stuff.
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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flak monkey
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| posted on 21/6/05 at 09:35 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Rorty
I think you'll find that copper lines are now illegal for brake systems...
Are they really? Why are so many kits getting through with copper pipes then?! Most of the kit manufacturers supply copper lines as well.
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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britishtrident
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| posted on 21/6/05 at 09:52 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
quote:
Originally posted by Rorty
I think you'll find that copper lines are now illegal for brake systems...
Are they really? Why are so many kits getting through with copper pipes then?! Most of the kit manufacturers supply copper lines as well.
Because of ignorance
Car originally used copper pipe for everything but it gave tremendous problems, steel bundy pipe was invented because copper fuel, oil and brake pipes
kept splitting.
Trouble is on UK salt laden roads normal steel bundy has a life of about 7 years if not protected. Hence the invention of Kuniffer and plastic coated
steel pipes.
Kuniffer is very easy to work, much easier than steel bundy, if a flaring tool can't form ends in Kuniffer it can't be up to much.
[Edited on 21/6/05 by britishtrident]
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Rorty
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| posted on 21/6/05 at 09:59 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
quote:
Originally posted by Rorty
I think you'll find that copper lines are now illegal for brake systems...
Are they really? Why are so many kits getting through with copper pipes then?! Most of the kit manufacturers supply copper lines as well.
Really? Kunifer and other 90/10 copper-nickel brake lines comply with BS 2871 Part 2, CN 102. Plain copper doesn't, so I would take that to mean
that copper lines aren't compliant.
I may be wrong; I don't build cars in the UK any more so my finger isn't on the pulse there.
Interesting article 1.
Interesting article 2.
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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DaveFJ
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| posted on 21/6/05 at 10:16 PM |
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Automec are one of the largest suppliers of brake pipe 'kits' in the market and they supply copper pipes as standard. These kits are
supplied in comprehensive kits by many manufacturers including Tiger.
their site has info about BS conformity
Here
My issue with my cheapo flaring tool isn't that it won't flare the pipe, just that the resulatnt flares are distorted and in some cases
stepped. will post some pics of the results tomorrow.
Dave
"In Support of Help the Heroes" - Always
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Rorty
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| posted on 21/6/05 at 10:39 PM |
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I'm not being pedantic, but Automec's page about copper and Cu/Ni tube seems a bit ambiguous. The
page is headed "Brake and fuel pipe coils" and it goes on to say "Top quality
thick-walled (0.9mm 20swg) Copper and Copper Nickel coils, conforming to BS2871 Part 3, C106/CN102."
I would take that to mean they stock brake tubing and fuel tubing and that "Copper Nickel coils, conforming to BS2871 Part 3, C106/CN102."
refers only to the Cu/Ni tubing. It doesn't specifically state copper complies to the same standard. (Or am I nit-picking/not reading it
correctly?)
I would like to see an unequivocal statement that pure copper tubing complies.
It's all moot IMHO anyway, because Kunifer is a far superior product and I simply wouldn't trust my life to another product with
reliability questions hanging over it.
For the same reasons, you wouldn't build a chassis from Al; it would work for a while, but you wouldn't receive any warnings before it
could catastrophically fail.
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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splitrivet
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| posted on 21/6/05 at 11:14 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Rorty
quote:
Originally posted by splitrivet
...we used flared 1/4 copper and never had a problem with work hardening and that had a thinner wall and some of the old condensing units used to
vibrate like a bog house door in a force 10.
You takes yer pick Dave dodgy flare or remote chance of work hardening, I know what i'd go for.
Kunifer and similar manufacturers must be kicking themselves with that bit of information; all that time and research they've wasted!
I think you'll find that copper lines are now illegal for brake systems and they must have based their decision on something other than the
colour of the stuff.
So perhaps thats why they still sell it stamp it down the side with a BS, DIN and ISO approval number,fit it to motors and pass an MOT with it all
because of a cunning plot to wipe out europes pedestrians with brakeless motors.
Of course Automec dont have a web forum to glean information from one of the worlds top metallurgists.
What a pipe.
Cheers,
Bob
I used to be a Werewolf but I'm alright nowwoooooooooooooo
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Rorty
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| posted on 21/6/05 at 11:32 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by splitrivet
...thats why they still sell it stamp it down the side with a BS, DIN and ISO approval number
I had never seen any pure copper tubing with a BS approval stamped on it, so thank you for clearing that up.
Does the SVA manual have anything to say on the matter?
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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NS Dev
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| posted on 22/6/05 at 07:39 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by splitrivet
quote:
Originally posted by Rorty
quote:
Originally posted by splitrivet
...we used flared 1/4 copper and never had a problem with work hardening and that had a thinner wall and some of the old condensing units used to
vibrate like a bog house door in a force 10.
You takes yer pick Dave dodgy flare or remote chance of work hardening, I know what i'd go for.
Kunifer and similar manufacturers must be kicking themselves with that bit of information; all that time and research they've wasted!
I think you'll find that copper lines are now illegal for brake systems and they must have based their decision on something other than the
colour of the stuff.
So perhaps thats why they still sell it stamp it down the side with a BS, DIN and ISO approval number,fit it to motors and pass an MOT with it all
because of a cunning plot to wipe out europes pedestrians with brakeless motors.
Of course Automec dont have a web forum to glean information from one of the worlds top metallurgists.
What a pipe.
Cheers,
Bob
Is it definitely plain copper pipe though??? Could it be cupro-nickel??
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britishtrident
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| posted on 22/6/05 at 07:44 AM |
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DIN, ISO and BS numbers are like spanners they have to be the correct one for job, copper pipe is definitely not to SAE standards for brake lines,
and for automotive purposes SAE are the ones that matter. In fact the use of copper for car brakes is specifically illegal in some states of the
US.
For more info see this article
http://www.dimebank.com/BrakePlumbing.html
While I do not agree with everything in the article I would like to underline the problems of copper. Having had fair bit of experience working on
cars built in the 1920s I have seen copper fuel lines fail. The pipe becomes hard and brittle and usually after a slight disturbance tens to split
parrallel to its' axis, the failure appears not unlike "season cracking" in brass.
[Edited on 22/6/05 by britishtrident]
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NS Dev
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| posted on 22/6/05 at 07:52 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DaveFJ
Automec are one of the largest suppliers of brake pipe 'kits' in the market and they supply copper pipes as standard. These kits are
supplied in comprehensive kits by many manufacturers including Tiger.
their site has info about BS conformity
Here
My issue with my cheapo flaring tool isn't that it won't flare the pipe, just that the resulatnt flares are distorted and in some cases
stepped. will post some pics of the results tomorrow.
The kit in the photo is like the one that I used to have!! They are utter shite on 3/16" tubing. The flare always goes skew-wiff and it usually
leaves bad grazes on the pipe which are stress raisers right in a critical area for fatigue.
You need a proper flaring tool really, they aren't cheap, but if you won't need one for more than one car then borrow a decent one rather
than buy a cheap one.
what you need is one of these, they often sell them at shows for £50 as seconds as the anodising is a bit patchy.
automec flaring tools
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DaveFJ
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| posted on 22/6/05 at 07:54 AM |
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most of the parts dealers over here sell copper brake pipes.
a quick look at the VWP catalog:
VWP
OR CBS:
CBS
To be honest this argument is getting a little silly now - obviously it is legal or it would never pass SVA. There may well be a fatigue problem on a
car that is going to do 100000 mile plus but not on an avarage kit that will only ever do a fraction of that.
Although this is all very interesting i still can't get a decent flare on Kunifer and as a coil of copper (which i can get a good flare on) is a
damn sight less than a 'decent' flaring tool I am now thinking of throwing this Kunifer crap in the bin and getting a coil of copper.
[Edited on 22/6/05 by DaveFJ]
Dave
"In Support of Help the Heroes" - Always
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 22/6/05 at 08:27 AM |
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Dave,
I bought a really effective tool from Motormania in Ipswich a year or so ago - its use is described
here.
It made very neat flares on kunifer without difficulty.
Oh - it's cheap, as well!
If you're still stuck, send me a U2U and I'll give you a demo.
David
[Edited on 22/6/05 by David Jenkins]
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NS Dev
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| posted on 22/6/05 at 09:37 AM |
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defnitely nowt wrong with those old moprod flaring tools mentioned on that link.
I did have the snap-on/blue point one though and it does wreck the pipe, I wouldn't bother with it on copper or kunifer, as I said, it leaves
gouges in the pipe right near the flare which are sure sources for cracks.
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britishtrident
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| posted on 22/6/05 at 10:57 AM |
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I use a 20 year old Sykes-Pickavant it produces pefect flares every time for me and I have never broken a press tool -- just as well because the
design has changed and I am not sure if spares are still available.
The key to good flaring tool is that it holds the tup part of press tool aligned with the die.
If flares go off centre it is usually because too much pipe is protruding from the die.
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