Fred W B
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| posted on 10/11/05 at 06:05 AM |
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Rorty - I'll dig the VW parts out on the weekend, I'm not sure if they are the seperate type.
I had a look at my notes last night, I measured the escort rack I have as 602 mm across end joint centres.
Cheers
Fred WB
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Rorty
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| posted on 10/11/05 at 07:14 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Fred W B
Rorty - I'll dig the VW parts out on the weekend, I'm not sure if they are the seperate type.
I had a look at my notes last night, I measured the escort rack I have as 602 mm across end joint centres.
Cheers
Fred WB
Thanks Fred. That's interesting, I now have three different lengths for the Escort rack! Admitedly, the other two (kindly sent by members here)
are from cad files, one of unknown origin (582mm) and one purports to be from Luso Motors (608.8mm).
I don't doubt your ability to weild a tape measure for a minute, in fact I respect your engineering talents suficiently to trust your figure
over the others.
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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Fred W B
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| posted on 10/11/05 at 06:21 PM |
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Okay, I don't know about my skill with a tape measure, but it turns out my paperwork filling leaves something to be desired. The 602 mm
dimension I stated is actually that of a mini rack I was working with.
I've just taken the boots of my escort rack and checked it again. Although its difficult to be exact without cutting up the end joints, I would
now agree with the 609 mm dimension.
Weird that the mini and escort should be so similar, but then the original racks were probably made by the same firm
And on the golf hubs, turns out I have the pattern with the disc and hub in one piece, so I really not being much help tonight.
Cheers
Fred WB
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pgpsmith
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| posted on 11/11/05 at 03:56 AM |
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Maybe the long rack ending up near the top wishbone wouldn't be such a bad thing (for bumpsteer, anyway.)
Question for those with CECs: is there room for a rack behind the upper wishbone?
Hear, hear! regrading a fix to the pokey-outy trapezoid corners and wishbone attach point confusion!
I couldn't find anything in my files on attaching the nose. Somebody must have pics.
Thinking food from Alan Staniforth's Competition Car Suspension. Porsche 956-962 (Ickx/Maas fwiw.) Spacer block alters camber w/out changing
Ackermann or tracking. Tyres a bit wider, though...
Oh, and one vote for Ackermann and one for the front track being same as or wider than the rear. Admittedly they are
I-only-know-what-I-read-in-Smith-and-Staniforth votes.
Regards,
Mr. Pete
Live and don't learn, that's us. - Calvin and Hobbes
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pgpsmith
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| posted on 11/11/05 at 03:57 AM |
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I'll try again with the attachment.
 
Rescued attachment 956-962 upright.jpg
Live and don't learn, that's us. - Calvin and Hobbes
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smdl
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| posted on 11/11/05 at 04:02 AM |
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Just a thought -- what does Caterham use now? Do they make their own components? I seem to recall that Lotus originally used Triumph pieces.
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Sven
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| posted on 11/11/05 at 05:39 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Rorty
- Wheel (make/model/size/PCD?)
- Tyre (width/aspect ratio?)
- Hub (make/model - future availability?)
- Brake disc (same as hub/aftermarket?)
- Calliper (same donor as hub & disc/aftermarket? Not that important right now)
- Balljoints (how long are the Transit/Cortina and Maxi ones goint to be around for? Should we switch to VW - they're global)
- Rack (is there a nice quick-ish rack that's close to the right size and readily available? Don't forget the track will probably be
wider than stock)
What a fabulous idea, Rorty.
I don't know the answer to these questions, nor so I have enough expertise to even have an opinion.
One thing I do have a very strong opinion about is that if this should fly, and I very certainly hope it does, then I do not want anything based on
either a Cortina or a Sierra or any other car without worldwide availability ... as defined by sitting in just about every wrecking yard there is.
I also think whatever parts (bearings, brakes, tapers, etc.) it's based on needs to be late model and by that I mean still in production,
ideally, or production stopped no earlier than, say, 2000.
I'm a Brit, and I loved my old Cortina, living in the US and I can tell it's a total bear trying to get anything Sierra/Cortina/RWD Escort
based.
Personally, I would vote for VW, Toyota, BMW, Honda, Ford 'world cars', etc. for their global parts availability. VW would appear at the
top of my list. Forget most GM products and anything French or Italian.
-Steve
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Sven
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| posted on 11/11/05 at 05:55 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Rorty
That's a pity, but I'm not surprised. I think we'll just have to raid a number of different parts bins to sort this out.
I'm pretty sure the tapers on the Miata/MX5 steering arms are the same as many others, particularily Toyota and VW.
The Toyota Tercel and mid 80's VW Golf/Jetta unpowered racks are available just about anywhere and their lengths appear suitable for a rear
steer locost ... at least in mine.
-Steve
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kb58
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| posted on 11/11/05 at 07:28 PM |
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Keeping in the spirit of Locost, it means using an existing upright. I propose people pooling suggestions for their choice. As we are a world-wide
group, it would be VERY helpful if the donor car is used in all countries. An overly optimistic goal perhaps, but the only one that really retains
its Locost roots.
That said, if we collectively can come up with a good generic upright design, of which not exists now, casting them is an idea, though shipping cost
becomes an issue... it's always something.
Mid-engine Locost - http://www.midlana.com
And the book - http://www.lulu.com/shop/kurt-bilinski/midlana/paperback/product-21330662.html
Kimini - a tube-frame, carbon shell, Honda Prelude VTEC mid-engine Mini: http://www.kimini.com
And its book -
http://www.lulu.com/shop/kurt-bilinski/kimini-how-to-design-and-build-a-mid-engine-sports-car-from-scratch/paperback/product-4858803.html
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britishtrident
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| posted on 11/11/05 at 08:59 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by smdl
Just a thought -- what does Caterham use now? Do they make their own components? I seem to recall that Lotus originally used Triumph pieces.
Triumph front suspension upright wasn't really Standard-Triumph it was designed and made by Alford & Adler, apparently it is still
available from a small engineering outfit in Coventry in several forms including one designed to take a rose joint in place of the trunnion for older
Formula Fords and the like, from looking at Caterhams online part store It seems Caterham are still using this variation on it.
I suspect the original Alford and Adler item may have been an adpation of the design for the pre WW2 German Adler car -- ??????????
[Edited on 11/11/05 by britishtrident]
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Rorty
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| posted on 11/11/05 at 09:47 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Sven
quote:
Originally posted by Rorty
That's a pity, but I'm not surprised. I think we'll just have to raid a number of different parts bins to sort this out.
I'm pretty sure the tapers on the Miata/MX5 steering arms are the same as many others, particularily Toyota and VW.
The Toyota Tercel and mid 80's VW Golf/Jetta unpowered racks are available just about anywhere and their lengths appear suitable for a rear
steer locost ... at least in mine.
-Steve
As you might have guessed, I'm very keen on VW stuff; it's global, many parts are interchangeable and of good quality. There have been
sufficient numbers made that there will be spares for generations to come.
OK Steve, put your money where your mouth is; lets have the dimensions of a Golf rack then. 
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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Rorty
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| posted on 11/11/05 at 10:00 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by kb58
Keeping in the spirit of Locost, it means using an existing upright.
Says who? AIUI, the definition of a Locost is a car that's been assembled cheaply from donor and homemade parts.
quote:
Originally posted by kb58
...if we collectively can come up with a good generic upright design, of which not exists now, casting them is an idea, though shipping cost becomes
an issue... it's always something.
The trouble with that is that not everyone would want to spend on the upright, my guess is that an upright design that anyone who is capable of making
a chassis and wishbones could make.
I think my first goal would be to do a truly DIY upright.
MNR are currently looking into producing the plate upright I posted on another thread.
I haven't heard from Marc since I sent him the DXF files, but I'm sure he'll post something about it if and when he has to show us.
If it does come off, that would be a lot cheaper than a casting and not any heavier.
The glory of the plate upright is that minor alterations to geometry can be achieved with little effort or outlay, whereas modifying the mould for a
cast upright would be very expensive. I've been there!
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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Kowalski
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| posted on 12/11/05 at 12:09 AM |
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I'm getting to the point of deciding what uprights to use.
I would like something relatively modern (so I get vented front discs), cheap and plentiful.
Has anybody looked at Honda Civics (the early 80s wedge shaped ones pre-Rover)? They're rear wheel drive and shouldn't be too rare. What
are Sierra and Granada uprights like? What about Omegas?
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Kowalski
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| posted on 12/11/05 at 12:12 AM |
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I've just had a look at the Silva site, for the Mojo, it uses Siera front uprights.
Could you take your Siera uprights and swap them side to side so they're rear steer (turn the brake calipers upside down too)?
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gazza285
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| posted on 12/11/05 at 12:21 AM |
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Not without the Akermann being totally screwed. Why not use Alfa uprights if you want rear steer.
DO NOT PUT ON KNOB OR BOLLOCKS!
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caber
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| posted on 12/11/05 at 12:01 PM |
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I think people picked up my previous post the wrong way. I was not proposing a mid engine as the ideal solution I was wondering what mechanicla FWD
bits could be re engineered in locost fashion to separate gearbox and rotate 90° then how the transaxle could be addapted to fit the rear.This may
mean moving the gearbox to the back like the Porsche 944 and I believe some volvos and of course Rorty figuring out the chassis for us  .
I am wilth Rorty that VW bits are a good choice for availability as they now turn up in all sorts of other things like Seats and Skodas and eved Audis
if you want to by the same bit for 4 times the price
So far the best car I ever owned was a Mk1 Golf GTI that unfortunately was run over by a bus and written off at a time that Ididn't have the
wherewithall to buy the salvage and fix it, though I believe the car may still exist according to the DVLA website. The idea of one on those engines
isn a locost is really eciting!
Caber
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Kowalski
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| posted on 12/11/05 at 04:03 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by caber
I was wondering what mechanicla FWD bits could be re engineered in locost fashion to separate gearbox and rotate 90° then how the transaxle could be
addapted to fit the rear.
In theory, you could take a FWD setup, e.g. Golf GTI, turn the engine and gearbox through 90 degrees and stick it in the front of a locost. The
downsides are twofold.
Firstly, a FWD setup drives the wheels via a dif, so you'd have to weld up the diff (this would make four wheel drive relatively easy though)
and if you connect the output from the gearbox to another diff at the back you'd find your gearing to be rather short, i.e. two you'd have
diff ratios.
The second drawback is that the drive output from the gearbox is offset from the line of the crankshaft, so you'd either have your engine
horribly offset to one side or your driveshaft to the rear through the driver / passenger footwell (not good).
Any other solution that tries to use a front wheel drive engine and gearbox is going to be expensive and beyond the reach of the majority, I'm
comfortable with designing and building my own chassis but engineering a gearbox is way beyond what I can do myself for reasonable cost.
I've looked at the Silva Riot and Mojo, they take a FWD setup and simply stick it into the rear of the car, in the same way that an MGF, Lotus
Elise, Toyota MR2 etc do.
Rear wheel drive gearboxes are going to become like hens teeth in the future, nobody does a cheap common light car (BMW perhaps the exception) with
rear wheel drive any more so using commonly available front wheel drive parts seems to be the way forwards.
Personally, I'm looking for something cheap, light and powerful in standard form so I don't have to spend money on tuning it.
[Edited on 12/11/05 by Kowalski]
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britishtrident
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| posted on 12/11/05 at 05:57 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Kowalski
I'm getting to the point of deciding what uprights to use.
I would like something relatively modern (so I get vented front discs), cheap and plentiful.
Has anybody looked at Honda Civics (the early 80s wedge shaped ones pre-Rover)? They're rear wheel drive and shouldn't be too rare. What
are Sierra and Granada uprights like? What about Omegas?
istr Civics were always FWD -- the little 70s ones were very crude they had a beam axle with rear spring leaf shackles mounted on to the rear
bumpers.
Also Sierra strut parts are what we are trying to get away from
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britishtrident
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| posted on 12/11/05 at 06:20 PM |
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As global makes go VW parts make the most sense particularly as most parts are available from aftermarket suppliers rather than VAG.
3 series BMW parts are another option loads around -- good cheap spares support.
Toyota, Honda, Mazda parts aren't as avialable from cheaper no-OEM sources.
PGA group don't sell world wide, GM and Ford models vary too much from market to market.
Fiat group sell in many markets but the quality isn't near VW standards.
Nissan-Renault ?
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Rorty
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| posted on 12/11/05 at 08:43 PM |
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This is all great input and very useful.
I'm pretty much settled on VW parts for hubs and discs because of the wide choice and availability.
What about the VW wheel PCD? It's not really an option to have two different wheels on the one car, so do we re-drill the front hubs or the rear
hubs?
What if I redesigned the De Dion rear end around VW hubs and brakes too? Their nice little alloy handbrake calliper seems to pop up everywhere these
days. In that case, the car would be running basically FWD wheels with FWD off-set. I'll have to look up the VW FWD off-set(s?) to see
what's involved. My point is, this will obviously have an effect (restraint?) on final geometry.
I agree; mass-produced RWD is dead, but for the time being, I think it's worth persevering with the RWD Se7en style Locost.
As I hinted earlier, I may have a look at a FWD midi next Christmas. There are already people building/designing FWD midi Locosts and AFAIK, at
least one will be produced as a kit/turnkey car.
The Gecko is still at the design stage and when finished, Dominic may not want to share his design anyway.
I'm not trying to offset anyone else' work or contribution, I would just like to explore a FWD midi myself.
Of course, by next Christmas I may have other plans.
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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madman280
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| posted on 13/11/05 at 01:30 PM |
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Some VW parts are a bit expensive around here, as an alternate option the Focus has a bolt on rear stub axle. Although most are drum braked, you could
cut off the drum bit and be left with a nice hub, with a nice sealed bearing Then you could fit a front rotor onto that and keep a Ford wheel bolt
patern.
[Edited on 13/11/05 by madman280]
[Edited on 13/11/05 by madman280]
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kango
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| posted on 13/11/05 at 05:51 PM |
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Rorty please first complete the drawings of the rear IRS uprights before you start a new design.
The Mk I Golf has a flat at the top of the upright that the Mcpherson bolts to. The next generations have a similar as the Siera upright collar that
the McPherson bolt into.
Which one are you looking at using?
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Rorty
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| posted on 13/11/05 at 09:19 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by madman280
Some VW parts are a bit expensive around here, as an alternate option the Focus has a bolt on rear stub axle. Although most are drum braked, you could
cut off the drum bit and be left with a nice hub, with a nice sealed bearing Then you could fit a front rotor onto that and keep a Ford wheel bolt
patern.
Have you considered the cost of all those alterations against the price of the VW parts? I think you'd find the VW parts would work out cheaper
(unless you have a well equiped machine shop at your disposal) and the VW parts would be much less hassle.
I'm all for altering or making parts, but only if the cost warrants it.
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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Rorty
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| posted on 13/11/05 at 09:26 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by kango
Rorty please first complete the drawings of the rear IRS uprights before you start a new design.
?
quote:
Originally posted by kango
The Mk I Golf has a flat at the top of the upright that the Mcpherson bolts to. The next generations have a similar as the Siera upright collar that
the McPherson bolt into.
Which one are you looking at using?
Neither. I only want to use the hubs and discs. I propose designing a new upright to accept the VW parts and integrating the whole lot together with
revised wishbones, tie rods and possibly a rear steer rack (though that's still to be investigated).
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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pgpsmith
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| posted on 14/11/05 at 01:09 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Rorty
In that case, the car would be running basically FWD wheels with FWD off-set. I'll have to look up the VW FWD off-set(s?) to see what's
involved. My point is, this will obviously have an effect (restraint?) on final geometry.
Hmmm, the old wheels question. Is the issue one of: using the wheels from the hub donor vehicle vs. aquiring a set with the same PCD, but RWD offset?
If this is the case, I'd vote for designing for RWD wheels. I think that unless someone goes the MX-5 route or scores an S2000, the days of the
single donor for the RWD Locost are just about over anyway, so why not optimize the design?.
Or is designing it with VW hubs for wheels with RWD offset just not reasonable? 
Regards,
Mr. Pete
p.s. From this side of the pond, I also like madman280's Focus idea, except for the cutting off the drum bit. Does the Focus vary from market to
market?
Live and don't learn, that's us. - Calvin and Hobbes
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