JoelP
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| posted on 15/5/05 at 09:02 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by gazza285
quote:
Originally posted by Triton
Rose joints are stronger when used on their side if that makes sense...?........so bolt goes down rather than sidey ways as per normal wishbone set
up.......only prob then is movement so spacers or high angle joints might be needed.
Any chance of you proving this bold statement? After many years of working in industry it’s always nice to learn of new thinking.
hi gaz. ive heard this recommended before. I know nothing about it really but will parrot the argument i heard for it in the past, in the interests of
hearing if its true or not. 
Basically, it was said that under heavy braking, the forces could pop a worn bearing out of its housing if the bolt was horizontal (not the rotary
force of braking, but the actual effect of the bones being stopped and the car wanting to go on). Hence using it with a vertical bolt, since they
often have enough movement to cover it anyway.
im not endorsing that opinion, it could be complete bollocks, but thats what someone said in the past.
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NS Dev
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| posted on 15/5/05 at 09:19 AM |
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Not seeking to argue, as I really don't care, but if the joint was that worn, then it popping out is really only a safety question, in which
case it wouldn't matter very much as the joint would be "caught" by the bolt anyway, it can't come off completely, unless
mounted on a single shear bracket, in which case it was badly designed anyway!
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Avoneer
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| posted on 15/5/05 at 10:03 AM |
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So, as per my original question:
Can anyone see a problem with me using one instead of the back "eyes" on both lower wishbones?
Pat...
No trees were killed in the sending of this message.
However a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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Jonr
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| posted on 15/5/05 at 10:32 AM |
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quote:
Basically, it was said that under heavy braking, the forces could pop a worn bearing out of its housing if the bolt was horizontal (not the rotary
force of braking, but the actual effect of the bones being stopped and the car wanting to go on). Hence using it with a vertical bolt, since they
often have enough movement to cover it anyway.
So what about conering forces or going over a hefty bump?
[Edited on 15/5/05 by Jonr]
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britishtrident
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| posted on 15/5/05 at 10:41 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Avoneer
So, as per my original question:
Can anyone see a problem with me using one instead of the back "eyes" on both lower wishbones?
Pat...
Just correct the misalignmemt by careful hot bending at the balljoint end.
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JoelP
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| posted on 15/5/05 at 11:14 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Jonr
So what about conering forces or going over a hefty bump?
i think that it was darren who first posted that, plus he was probably refering to race cars. Not many potholes on a track, but maybe the kerbs would
have a bad effect on it either way. cornering would seem to be pulling the joints out, so its across the bolt which ever way you put it.
however, its irrelevant to me cos im using bushes anyway - and im not actually bothered!
ps, sorry for the hijack pat i dont really have any useful input on your problem maybe send it back again!
[Edited on 15/5/05 by JoelP]
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Rorty
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| posted on 15/5/05 at 12:56 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Triton
.. rod ends ... bend if used vertical(ie withbolt running sideyways) they are stronger run flat....
The strength of the rod end doesn't change because of its orientation.
The thinking behind mounting them vertically is to reduce the risk of the ball popping out. This would be very unlikely and if the forces were that
great, then something else would probably be bent/damaged in the process. It has nothing to do with the rod ends being worn. Worn rod ends
wouldn't get through scrutineering.
quote:
Originally posted by Triton Within the motorsport bullshit world it's regarded as being naff to use rod ends on 'bones
because it shows perhaps that they are not that accurate in the first place.
Such utter bullspit! The rod ends are there for adjustability for different tracks/track conditions etc. Thousands of pounds/dollars are spent on
carefully TIG welding and brazing race cars together. Do you really think they would make sloppy wishbones and then just slap a few adjustable pivots
on them to compensate?  
Some home-built Avons may be constructed that way, but no race car I've ever seen was subjected to that degree of slovenliness and incompitence.
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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Triton
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| posted on 15/5/05 at 02:06 PM |
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Rorty,
Deary me are yet another one who believes in all that motorsport bullshit.....Firm i worked for built a NSS chassis 5 yrs ago that was heavily clamped
in jig whilst welding and yes it was tig welded.......it shrunk and pinged like a twat when pulled from the very expensive jig........so it's
all bollox mate.
Read a feature in one of those kitcar joke books about some firm who can be within 1 to 2 mm over a 10ft long chassis........ummm now that's
bullshit.
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Avoneer
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| posted on 15/5/05 at 02:48 PM |
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Guys guys guys, chill out.
No need for all the language.
We all have different opinions and I listen to them all, but this is my thread and I'm after a simple answer to my problem.
Despite what everyone has said, no one has yet said that it would be a problem or be any better or worse than not doing it.
So is this my answer???
Thanks,
Pat...
No trees were killed in the sending of this message.
However a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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Triton
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| posted on 15/5/05 at 03:19 PM |
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Avon bloke,
Make a new set of 'bones mate, easy to knock up a jig to align the pivots...clamp them up to tack them........but don't weld them
clamped......they will close up if you do.
No doubt somebody will try and shoot me down in flames but hey...only spent the last 20yrs as a fabricator what do i know!
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Mix
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| posted on 15/5/05 at 03:30 PM |
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OK, in response to the original question, if I were in the same situation I would replace all the inboard bushes with rose type joints.
Reasons:
1. If you have to take corrective action then you might as well get some additional benefit, (in this case adjustability in camber and castor)
2. Purely cosmetic
Cheers Mick
PS I've used rose joints in my IRS, got them from Nick Skidmore who posts on here, very pleased with the product and service. Why not see what
he has available?
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clbarclay
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| posted on 15/5/05 at 03:37 PM |
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Avoneer, are the wishbones bought in or made by your self? Judging by previous topics, I would say they are bought in. In which case send them back
where they came from if you can and get a decent pair back.
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Avoneer
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| posted on 15/5/05 at 03:56 PM |
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This is the 2nd pair I have had. Only had a quick look at them and told the supplier they were ok.
Upon proper inspection, I noticed this mis-alignment.
Not sure I want to bother the supplier again, as these were made up as a one-off just for me to a different specification to what is normally
supplied.
And then there's the postage costs and additional time and all that when all I want to do is crack on with my car.
May be easier for me to bite the bullet and just buy some GTS lower bones like I should have done in the first place!
Pat...
No trees were killed in the sending of this message.
However a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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Triton
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| posted on 15/5/05 at 04:50 PM |
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Surely you could send them back though if they are misaligned? Unless you had them done as a favour, but all the same they should be right in the
first place.
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Bob C
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| posted on 15/5/05 at 06:19 PM |
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Trouble with screwing rod ends into bones is that the adjustment is quantised in 1/2 turn steps - this would equate to a couple of degrees at the
wheel - not much use if you want 0.4 degrees of negative camber +/- 0.2degrees.
Sorry if someone's already pointed this out, I couldn't be bothered reading the whole thread.
luv
Bob
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Cita
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| posted on 15/5/05 at 07:06 PM |
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Sorry for the language used in my reply
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Triton
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| posted on 15/5/05 at 07:10 PM |
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That's why shims at fixing point is a far better way to have adjustable suspension...
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Triton
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| posted on 15/5/05 at 07:13 PM |
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swear all you like mate doesn't bother me, as long as people accept i am the way i am if not that's there problem not mine....
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niceperson709
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| posted on 15/5/05 at 09:25 PM |
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Hi Again Pat
Just wondering how much mis aligned your bones are ? can they be tweeked after the aplication of a bit of heat from the oxy?
best wishes
Iain
Best wishes IAIN
life is not the rehearsal , it's the show so don't sit there thinking about it DO IT NOW
http://iainseven.wordpress.com/
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Rorty
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| posted on 15/5/05 at 09:31 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Triton
Rorty,
Deary me are yet another one who believes in all that motorsport bullshit.....Firm i worked for built a NSS chassis 5 yrs ago that was heavily clamped
in jig whilst welding and yes it was tig welded.......it shrunk and pinged like a twat when pulled from the very expensive jig........so it's
all bollox mate.
Read a feature in one of those kitcar joke books about some firm who can be within 1 to 2 mm over a 10ft long chassis........ummm now that's
bullshit.
I don’t believe in all the motorsport bullspit, but I do believe in accurately jigged chassis and wishbones. I can’t comment on the system
used to produce the ones you refer to, but I have been in motorsport for forty years and the wishbones I make in my jigs don’t move one jot. There
would be no point in making the jigs otherwise. Attention to welding sequence plays a major part in the accuracy of any welded structure. If one of my
wishbones “pinged like a tw4t”, I wouldn’t use it because the inbuilt stresses and tension would soon fracture it and cause undue wear to the rod ends
too.
As for obtaining accuracy of 2mm over a 3m chassis, it is doable. Even my off-road chassis are close to that and I’ve built bitumen cars and
road-going cars within those parameters. If you don’t believe it’s possible, then you’ve not learned much about car construction in your twenty years.
Judging by some of your comments like “swear all you like mate doesn't bother me …. that's there problem not mine.” you’re evidently a
fairly coarse individual who would probably be oblivious to the finer points of many disciplines.
Don’t put others down and make disparaging remarks about those who strive for near-perfect results just because you don’t know any different.
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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NS Dev
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| posted on 16/5/05 at 07:09 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Avoneer
This is the 2nd pair I have had. Only had a quick look at them and told the supplier they were ok.
Upon proper inspection, I noticed this mis-alignment.
Not sure I want to bother the supplier again, as these were made up as a one-off just for me to a different specification to what is normally
supplied.
And then there's the postage costs and additional time and all that when all I want to do is crack on with my car.
May be easier for me to bite the bullet and just buy some GTS lower bones like I should have done in the first place!
Pat...
Hello,
do I recall that you are building a Stuart taylor based car now? Are the wishbones from STM too? If so, mine were a little out of line but nothing too
severe.
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Syd Bridge
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| posted on 16/5/05 at 08:13 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Rorty
I don’t believe in all the motorsport bullspit, but I do believe in accurately jigged chassis and wishbones. I can’t comment on the system
used to produce the ones you refer to, but I have been in motorsport for forty years and the wishbones I make in my jigs don’t move one jot. There
would be no point in making the jigs otherwise. Attention to welding sequence plays a major part in the accuracy of any welded structure. If one of my
wishbones “pinged like a tw4t”, I wouldn’t use it because the inbuilt stresses and tension would soon fracture it and cause undue wear to the rod ends
too.
As for obtaining accuracy of 2mm over a 3m chassis, it is doable. Even my off-road chassis are close to that and I’ve built bitumen cars and
road-going cars within those parameters. If you don’t believe it’s possible, then you’ve not learned much about car construction in your twenty years.
Judging by some of your comments like “swear all you like mate doesn't bother me …. that's there problem not mine.” you’re evidently a
fairly coarse individual who would probably be oblivious to the finer points of many disciplines.
Don’t put others down and make disparaging remarks about those who strive for near-perfect results just because you don’t know any different.
Pot, kettle, black, come to mind. Eh Rorty?
Makes I larrf it do!!!
Now back to oblivion and sanity.
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James
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| posted on 16/5/05 at 11:06 AM |
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Pat,
You probably realise this but as it could save a lot of hassle I'll point it out *just* in case.
The wishbones often 'look' out. It's caused by an optical illusion. I thought mine were and kept trying to correct them. In the end
I turned up a bar the same as the I.D. of the tubes and as it could pass though them both I knew they were inline.
Anyway, just suggesting it in case your bones really are straight!
HTH,
James
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"The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses, behind the lines, in the gym and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights."
- Muhammad Ali
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Avoneer
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| posted on 16/5/05 at 11:07 AM |
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No, not building an ST and not using their bones either.
Building a Locost.
Will use my bones as they are for now and worry about it later.
Pat...
No trees were killed in the sending of this message.
However a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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NS Dev
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| posted on 16/5/05 at 03:11 PM |
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Doh, well where did I get that idea from, with my brain would work!!!
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