NS Dev
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| posted on 25/2/05 at 09:10 AM |
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Brakes (again!)
Just to start another thread on this, I am also thinking about some lighter brakes than my Cortina M16's (which need full recon anyway) and I am
just wondering about piston areas.
I see HiSpec Motorsport do a direct M16 fitting two piston ultralight caliper. This has pistons around 4mm(I think) smaller than the std M16
caliper.
Would this have enough braking capacity or would it be marginal. The car will be vauxhall XE engined, but have no screen, heater or any other
luxuries.
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MikeR
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| posted on 25/2/05 at 09:29 AM |
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Have a word with Dick Axtel.......
he's a good man when it comes to brakes. If i remember correctly years ago he ran the m16s + 8" rear drums on standard chassis numbers
through the girling computer and came up with almost perfect brake balance for road use.
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ned
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| posted on 25/2/05 at 09:44 AM |
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I'm quite confused by all the m16 aloloy replacement's out there, so would be interested to see what you go for. There's the hispec,
wilwood, bremsport, racedla, outlaw and I believ an AP caliper that fit, but which one is best/lightest/has dust seals etc etc.
My car is probably similar spec to your, I'm hoping for around 600 and maybe a bit kg's..
Ned.
beware, I've got yellow skin
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Dick Axtell
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| posted on 25/2/05 at 10:50 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeR
Have a word with Dick Axtel.......
he's a good man when it comes to brakes.
So is JAG - and he's still at work, with access to all the info!
However, re: M16 calipers :-
Piston dia. = 54mm, area = 2290mm.sq.
For 50mm piston, area = 1963mm.sq.
If you use a twin-pot with 2 x 50mm pistons, you then get 2 x 1963mm.sq. hydraulic area.
So is that figure of 50mm correct for the alternative caliper?
Work-in-Progress: Changed to Zetec + T9. Still trying!!
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Dick Axtell
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| posted on 25/2/05 at 10:51 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeR
Have a word with Dick Axtel.......
he's a good man when it comes to brakes.
So is JAG - and he's still at work, with access to all the info! (Although he's SVA'ing today!)
However, re: M16 calipers :-
Piston dia. = 54mm, area = 2290mm.sq.
For 50mm piston, area = 1963mm.sq.
If you use a twin-pot with 2 x 50mm pistons, you then get 2 x 1963mm.sq. hydraulic area.
So is that figure of 50mm correct for the alternative caliper?
[Edited on 25/2/05 by Dick Axtell]
Work-in-Progress: Changed to Zetec + T9. Still trying!!
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Dick Axtell
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| posted on 25/2/05 at 10:56 AM |
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Brake Balance!!
quote:
Originally posted by MikeR
...he ran the m16s + 8" rear drums on standard chassis numbers through the girling computer and came up with almost perfect brake balance for
road use.
Mike, substitute the word "acceptable" for "perfect", and you get a more accurate description.
Lol
Work-in-Progress: Changed to Zetec + T9. Still trying!!
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NS Dev
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| posted on 25/2/05 at 11:00 AM |
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Just had a proper look on Hispec's site, and the pistons on the "Ultralite 2, M16 mount" caliper are 48mm.
So any ideas if this will be enough or not.
Ned, yep, there are a lot available. I will be ringing AP up as a price they gave me at the autosport show was cheaper than Wilwood! I think they got
it wrong as it was only verbal, but undoubtedly AP are the best solution, if not the cheapest!
Dust seals are a good idea, but if I can use 2 piston ultralites then I am less bothered. If I went 4 pot then I think I would definitely go for dust
sealed ones.
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ned
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| posted on 25/2/05 at 11:07 AM |
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I'm wanting 4 pots eventually, and i have this stupid whim about using vented capri discs which I know are much heavier. Thing is i'd
quite fancy the centre of the disc machined out and replaced with a nice alloy bell to save some of the extra weight. Any ideas on getting that
done?
I believe the bremsport, racedla and outlaw calipers are also one in the same?
The new wilwoods have dust seals I believe but not sure on any of the above aforementioned..
Ned.
beware, I've got yellow skin
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MikeR
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| posted on 25/2/05 at 11:10 AM |
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Nat, don't forget when you've decided what you want to have a word with me and i'll maybe tag along and buy the same........
perhaps a bulk buy might make the prices more 'reasonable'.
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NS Dev
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| posted on 25/2/05 at 11:56 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ned
I'm wanting 4 pots eventually, and i have this stupid whim about using vented capri discs which I know are much heavier. Thing is i'd
quite fancy the centre of the disc machined out and replaced with a nice alloy bell to save some of the extra weight. Any ideas on getting that
done?
I believe the bremsport, racedla and outlaw calipers are also one in the same?
The new wilwoods have dust seals I believe but not sure on any of the above aforementioned..
Ned.
I am also thinking about using the capri vented discs, they are not that much heavier than the cortina ones really. I would still use 2 piston
calipers if ones are available with a suitable piston/pad area. 4 pots are only needed if pad area needs to be bigger than that which can be
accomodated behind a single piston.
If you weigh all the cortina hub "bits" the calipers really are the cripplingly heavy items!!
I'll get the info from AP in the next week or so and post the prices on here. The downside is they certainly don't do an M16 mount
caliper, so mounting brackets need machining for a start, which bumps the cost up.
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Bob C
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| posted on 25/2/05 at 02:02 PM |
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In my experience the AP products are good but expensive and comparatively heavy, wilwood (fenced by rallydesign) generally lighter and cheaper. I
bought 4 of the dynalite single calipers for £50 each and they only weigh 1.4lbs - incredibly light.
Bob C
PS am gonna use a transmission handbrake
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MikeR
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| posted on 25/2/05 at 02:05 PM |
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just looking at those this very moment! the bore is 44.5mm
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NS Dev
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| posted on 25/2/05 at 02:46 PM |
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For various (personal experience) reasons I'm not keen on Wilwood, but I know plenty use them to good effect.
The ultralite 2 pot jobbies from HiSpec are direct replacements for M16 calipers (so no brackets etc) and are £110 each.
They weigh 925g each, have 48mm dia pistons and a pad area of 76mm x 65mm.
is this a big enough piston/pad to stop a 500-600kg locost reliably and consistently? (note, this is for FRONT brakes!)
[Edited on 25/2/05 by NS Dev]
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chriscook
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| posted on 25/2/05 at 03:18 PM |
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Why not the ultralite 4 calipers with M16 lugs? They are only £10 more than the 2 pots. I've got Ultralite 4's on my Phoenix with same
engine as you and should be fine - The kit car workshop put them on their XE Fury and they apparantly work well. I think they'll do spacers for
whaterver thickness disc you want?
I would advise buying through Martin Bell at the Kit Car Workshop if going for Hi-Specs! (no connection just happy customer and you get KCW not
Hi-Spec customer service)
Chris
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ned
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| posted on 25/2/05 at 04:24 PM |
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ultralite 's look good for me, any idea about probs with not having dust seals for road use? do you just need to clean them every single outing,
will the pistons get gunked up?
for the price/weight they seem very good. with a vented disc with ally bell they'd be ideal..
Ned.
beware, I've got yellow skin
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Mr G
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| posted on 25/2/05 at 05:34 PM |
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Just as reference I thought raldes.co.uk were usually cheaper for wilwood's than hi-spec?
Hav'nt looked at the prices lately though.
Edit: Just seen Bob C's comment at the top 
Cheers
G
[Edited on 25/2/05 by Mr G]
Normal is getting dressed in clothes that you buy for work and driving through traffic in a
car that you are still paying for - in order to get to the job you need to pay for the clothes
and the car, and the house you leave vacant all day so you can afford to live in it.
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Northy
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| posted on 25/2/05 at 06:27 PM |
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I'm also interested in peoples opinions on this one as I'd like to upgrade too
Graham
Website under construction. Help greatfully received as I don't really know what I'm doing!
"If a man says something in the woods and there are no women there, is he still wrong?"
Built 2L 8 Valve Vx Powered Avon
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ned
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| posted on 10/3/05 at 11:22 AM |
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Have done some more research on this, please see my findings below. NS Dev, any news on AP kit/prices/spec?
Ned.
 
Rescued attachment brakes.gif
beware, I've got yellow skin
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NS Dev
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| posted on 10/3/05 at 11:30 AM |
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Not yet Ned, been too busy at home to get time to call them outside of work!
Just remembered the other reasons that I don't like the idea of the Wilwoods, the need for separate mounting brackets and the fact that they
need odd pads, wheres the HiSpec ones use common production car pads.
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ady8077
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| posted on 10/3/05 at 05:45 PM |
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Hi
Darren at GTS is also doing 4 pot kits, see http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=21940
Adrian
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MikeR
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| posted on 10/3/05 at 05:50 PM |
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eeek, unless i've miss understood darren is doing them for a lot more than ned is quoting.
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ady8077
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| posted on 10/3/05 at 06:12 PM |
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I think Darrens are a complete kit, 2 callipers 2 disks and a set of pads
Adrian
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andkilde
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| posted on 10/3/05 at 06:58 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ned
ultralite 's look good for me, any idea about probs with not having dust seals for road use? do you just need to clean them every single outing,
will the pistons get gunked up?
for the price/weight they seem very good. with a vented disc with ally bell they'd be ideal..
Ned.
Ned, I don't think the lack of dust seals would become an everyday maintenance item.
If memory serves the AP calipers on my Mini didn't come with dust seals from the factory and they don't seem to have and issues (touch
wood).
I think you'd probably be fine giving them a blast of water each time you wash the car.
Cheers, Ted
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gazza285
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| posted on 10/3/05 at 10:37 PM |
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No dust seals on the calipers on my van either, done 230,000 so far without problems.
Wilwoods have stainless pistons as well, clean them when you change pads.
[Edited on 10/3/05 by gazza285]
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NS Dev
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| posted on 11/3/05 at 08:46 AM |
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As I mentioned earlier, though the Wilwoods look good, (and I could be wrong on this next bit but I don't think so) they are designed and made
in the USA, and therefore don't use easily available UK car pads. Therefore you have to buy them at some expense well in advance.
The advantage of the Hi-Spec calipers is that they are UK designed and made to take pads that you can buy at Halfords (hope you don't have to
though!) shoudl the need arise. The downside (I am led to believe) is that dealing with HiSpec can be a bit of a lottery.........any personal
experiences with them?
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