I have a nagging feeling that I might want to design a Locost-esque car as a cheap summer car. Scanning the forum most people seem to be using Cortina or converted Sierra uprights in the front suspension

My question is what other options are there for double wishbone setups? I have a feeling that various Hondas may have had double wishbone setups in the 90s. Has anyone tried/had success with non-Ford parts?

Ben

Lada uprights have been tried, but good look finding some

The trouble is finding ones with the same PCD as the rears you want to use.

Adam

Look at Toyota Lite ace van and some other light vans mitubisshi L300 ect have suitable uprights , you can also use the toyota lite ace rear axel in a live axel build and it has a 4 : 1 ratio
best wishes
Iain

GT6/Spitfire are good as they are light and cheap. Spares are plentiful to cater for the classic/Caterham boys. Pretty sure you can also get hubs to allow Ford wheel PCD.

Most don't carry a spare anyway so it doesn't matter that much. If you've just got the feeling I wouldn't worry too much about details yet, it'll be a long time before it translates into reality. You either get in there and do it or sit there and think about it. If you're designing as well as building it the summer will be long gone before you get anywhere near driving it.

Honda FWD parts are totally unsuitable the upright is very long and the top ball joint is cantilevered out over the centre of the tyre tread.
Triumph uprights are suitable wheel PCD is not a problem it matches the Marina rear axle as used by Careham. The Triumph upright comes in several flavours - most Herald & Spitfire uprights are not much good as they restrict the brake options yhou csan fit Vitesse/GT6 are very suitable.

has anyone looked at mgf's ? i haven't i just read recently that they where double wishbone suspension and wondered if they'd do!

As far as I know the MGF is just 2 metro's joined together with the engine at the back, just like Fiat did with 2 fiat 128's to make the X19

quote:

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Originally posted by Mark Allanson
As far as I know the MGF is just 2 metro's joined together with the engine at the back, just like Fiat did with 2 fiat 128's to make the X19

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Do the GT6 uprights use lower ball joints or the trunnion setup as used (as I understand it) on the Spitfires?

I had dropped Spits from my short-list because I don't understand enough about the castor geometry issues involved with the trunnions. It seemed like a "get it right, or do it all over again" detail. (Not that I won't be doing that anyway.) Am I "fleeing where no one pursueth" here?

Also, does anyone know if the Hi Ace parts require redesigned bones / bracket locations? I've heard that the stub axel is quite a bit closer to the lower ball joint than on the Cortina.

Mr. Pete

Triumphs use trunnions there is no caster issue the Triumph upright is more suitable for a light car than the Cortina equivalent --- Caterham, Lotus, TVR, Marcos, Brabham Mallock and many more made very good use of the Triumph part --- more correctly it is an Alford & Addler design which has beenin continuous production for 50 or more years.

[Edited on 31/1/05 by britishtrident]

Don't forget that you can buy super light fabricated uprights (designed for autograssing as an alternative to Viva/Cortina ones) from GB Engineering, which take viva hubs, or use GB's own alloy hubs which can then take Ford wheels. The uprights can have either tapers or parallel holes top and bottom for rose joints or balljoints.

I can't remember the price, think it was £250 for a pair of uprights, with alloy hubs, bearings and brake discs.

Now he mentions it..............

still, i'm going to look into mgf's and see what they are like...........

any idea what the elise uses?

The elise uses BLOODY EXPENSIVE ones!!

quote:

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Originally posted by NS Dev
Don't forget that you can buy super light fabricated uprights (designed for autograssing as an alternative to Viva/Cortina ones) from GB Engineering, which take viva hubs, or use GB's own alloy hubs which can then take Ford wheels. The uprights can have either tapers or parallel holes top and bottom for rose joints or balljoints.

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Arn't the uprights on a Hyundi Stellar the same as Cortina ones?

Mick

good ol' british engineers (they are primarily an automotive toolmaking company) so no internet site, I'll post phone number tonight when I get home.

These do a kit.
hub kit Bit dearer than £250 though. I think MNR were doing this kit at a decent price as well but I've not heard any more about it.

Ben,

I have a pair of GT6 uprights fitted with ally hubs (4 stud Ford) and new 266mm vented discs with refurbed GT6 calipers, inc new wheel bearings. They were tailored to fit some 14" Revolutions I have. A change of plans means that I am now not going to use them.
I also have some upper wishbones, but no lowers.
If you are interested, lot me know.

quote:

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Originally posted by Mix
Arn't the uprights on a Hyundi Stellar the same as Cortina ones?

Mick

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Hi,
Dont you want to use axle from golf rear suspension, or something like this...

The rest you can make by your self if you have welder.

In my country LADA uprights is very cheap (about 10Eur), but the brakes are poor...and so on...

[Edited on 31/1/05 by romkasponka]

Tracked this down in my files - source unknown. This is what I meant by caster issues with the trunnion.

So, assuming that I can fab and weld the zig-zag piece accurately (BIG assumption), and assuming that 5 degrees of caster is the magic number, it should be superior to a cortina solution?
Rescued attachment SPFRAARM.jpg

So a Hyundai is the same upright as a Cortina? This certainly opens up a lot more donors for use North American crowd. Just how hard would it be to convert to non-driven?
Grant

quote:

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Originally posted by grantmac
So a Hyundai is the same upright as a Cortina? This certainly opens up a lot more donors for use North American crowd. Just how hard would it be to convert to non-driven?
Grant

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Well at least it doubles your chances of finding uprights

Mick

From memory the drawing is wrong the angular allowance for caster is built into the trunnion.

Thank you britishtrident. That will make things much easier. I'll have a look when I go junking.

Mr Pete

Take a look at the way the lower and upper arms were done on the Elan/Europa/+2S/Seven S4/early Espirit
Very simple although shap edge would cause SVa problems.

quote:

---

Originally posted by NS Dev
Don't forget that you can buy super light fabricated uprights (designed for autograssing as an alternative to Viva/Cortina ones) from GB Engineering, which take viva hubs, or use GB's own alloy hubs which can then take Ford wheels. The uprights can have either tapers or parallel holes top and bottom for rose joints or balljoints.

I can't remember the price, think it was £250 for a pair of uprights, with alloy hubs, bearings and brake discs.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by kiwirex

Only the very early stellars.
Even then they changed the suspension to McPherson strut early on, with the original body shape.

I think finding an early stellar will be about as easy as finding a whole cortina...

Good luck though.

- Greg H

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Just guessing here, but I'd be saying mid 80's

I read about someone in Canada buying a set of Hyundai front uprights cheaply from a main dealer as obsolete old stock. Admitted it was a few years ago but it's worth a look. It said they only used them from the first edition till 1986 when they swapped to McPherson struts

Does anyone have any pictures or examples of "non-factory" uprights?
I'm looking for inspiration as I rekon that Fiesta ones are going to be a bit too heavy for me.....

I have the ability to machine/weld pretty-much anything here....

cheers,

N

quote:

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Originally posted by nick baker
Does anyone have any pictures or examples of "non-factory" uprights?
I'm looking for inspiration as I rekon that Fiesta ones are going to be a bit too heavy for me.....

I have the ability to machine/weld pretty-much anything here....

cheers,

---

Thanks Trident... Volvos litter the scrapyards, and Amazons seem to outnumber fiestas on the roads here...

So... the 144 upright is light?

I'm looking for identical uprights that could be used at the front and the rear (drive+adjustable toe-in/out)

Ideally I'd have aluminium ones, but they seem few and far between...

Cheers,
N

http://www.saabtuning.cz/volvo/dily1.htm

the Text at the top is fairly close to anglo-Saxon, and the links for car makes are numerical.. and it seems to be taken from and english document.... so fear not!!

Either way... nice exploded diagrams from every car's boingy bits.

Enjoy.

Using fwd uprights on the rear really isn't as good a solution as it might seem -- the bump steer problems tend be difficult to solve. Bump steer on the rear of a rwd is worse than the front --- get toe-out on an outside rear wheel and the handling will be really bad.

[Edited on 2/2/05 by britishtrident]

quote:

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Originally posted by nick baker
Thanks Trident... Volvos litter the scrapyards, and Amazons seem to outnumber fiestas on the roads here...

So... the 144 upright is light?

I'm looking for identical uprights that could be used at the front and the rear (drive+adjustable toe-in/out)

Ideally I'd have aluminium ones, but they seem few and far between...

Cheers,
N

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Bump-Steer.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're talking about a toe in/out reaction to teh compression of the suspension as you hit a bump... right?

Suerly this wouldn't occur IF the suspension Geometry (and "steering link" arm replacment where correctly positioned... (thus creating Zero steering effect throughout all suspension travel....)

Looks like I might end up designing my own uprights.

I was JUST about to suggest trailing rear arms instead, but read somone's question about TR6 rear arms... This forum really IS the most useful thing I've ever read regarding car design.

Thanks!!

N

quote:

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Originally posted by nick baker
Bump-Steer.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're talking about a toe in/out reaction to teh compression of the suspension as you hit a bump... right?

Suerly this wouldn't occur IF the suspension Geometry (and "steering link" arm replacment where correctly positioned... (thus creating Zero steering effect throughout all suspension travel....)

Looks like I might end up designing my own uprights.

I was JUST about to suggest trailing rear arms instead, but read somone's question about TR6 rear arms... This forum really IS the most useful thing I've ever read regarding car design.

Thanks!!

N

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As I recall, Rorty designs and fabricates his own uprights for his off-roader thingies.

Perhaps the man himself could come forward give some more info.

Neil.

Cheers Trident

If that's the main reason against it, then I'm happy.

I have ProE here and am happy to sit and model suspension movements all day long.

IF you have your kingpin / center point geometry right, then in theory you can put all the power in the world through a double-A system without any force accurring on your track rods.

http://www.ihpva.org/com/PracticalInnovations/weld.html#Trike%20Steering%20Geometry

Chapter 3 here goes some way to describe it.

Anyway... you got me thinking enough for me to be wanting to make my own rear uprights. so it's not an issue

Thanks again!!

I would agree with britishtrident; FWD uprights on the rear can indeed be problematical (unless you can bolt or weld the things solid).
I'm working on a project for someone in the US at present and this is one of the areas causing hassles.
In theory, if you could make the tie rods the exact same length as the two wishbones and mount the pivots so they fall equidistant between the sides of an imaginary parallelogram, then it would work perfectly.
In reality, this is an impossibility due to the unequal lengths of most modern double wishbone set-ups. Also, the outer tie rod end is usually away on it's own somewhere, though a bolt on extension could realign it I suppose.
An easier way out might be be to use a front strut, in which case making a parallelogram with the tie rod wouldn't be as big a headache.
Fabricating uprights is extremely simple (assuming you can weld). It offers the widest possible design variations to help make it work.
Casting uprights or making them from billet is also well within the means of anyone who can draw and wield a saw, but for one-offs, the machining costs usually result in them being more expensive than simple fabricated uprights.

Rorty,
This kind of problematical?
Rescued attachment 14nug.hurricane.583.jpg

Is that for real? It looks like it may actually have been snapped when in motion. Extreme 4 wheel steering?

Yes Sir,
The Jeep Hurricane concept was shown in the Deroit auto show recently. The idea is that when your average suburban mom drops little Johnney off for the soccer practice, she would be able to use the fully independent four wheel steering to park in a tight spot (FFS, they have problems steering ONE set of wheels!).
Makes you wonder what fevered mind dreamt this one up (it costs ~ 1million $ to build a prototype; around 6k$ to make a single wheel rim); and what idiot signed off on it.

Think of the parking advantages for the average soccer-run-mum though.... Drive straight into the place, and ... erm.... rotate through 90° for perfect parking.

Excellent!! :O) the gearbox arrangment must be seriously messy though. I read an article about it... I think it has TWIN 300BHP V8's or something ridiculous....

*search search*
yeah... twin 5.7 litre v8's.
http://www.gizmag.com/go/3599/

That tranny's a headache!!!

Edited to make it appear as though I can spell.

[Edited on 4/2/05 by nick baker]

One problem with double arm is down to torque reactions even a little compliance at the inner pivots can cause the top balljoint to move forward and the lower ball joint to move backwards under braking causing windup throwing the whole geometry out. This why very few single seater formula cars used A arm double wishbones on the rear untill ground effect aerodynamics came to fore in the late 70s.

Of course this also happens at the front as few Mk owners have remarked on but at the front double A arm is the only show in town at least for a Locost style car.

[Edited on 4/2/05 by britishtrident]