Fozzie
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| posted on 9/1/08 at 01:23 PM |
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Ooooops forgot to say......
I have never moaned about back-markers.....in every race there has to be someone at the back...and the locost series is about having fun and
learning......it seems to me that perhaps some of the entrants should be looking to race in another series....... where having fun isn't the
name of the game...... (said tongue in cheek of course)....
Please don't lose sight of the series being 'entry' level racing......
Fozzie 
'Racing is Life!...anything before or after is just waiting'....Steve McQueen
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Rob Palin
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| posted on 9/1/08 at 01:44 PM |
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Hi Simon,
Although i haven't had as serious an accident as Samir, i have had several easily avoidable incidents with backmarkers but also mid/front
runners too, and i'm not sure any of them could have been avoided by applying the 10% rule (though one could have been avoided if the guy had
noticed the black flag they waved at him for 15 consecutive laps at Brands!).
I've not been involved in Locost racing as long as Mr Beddows or Matt, i have seen a definite change over the past 5 years. For my first race
there was at least one road-spec Locost and the spread of the grid was around 15 seconds (at Donington). Last summer at Mallory wasn't it
something like the top 25 being covered by a second?
The poles/lap records have dropped a bit but the speed of the guys at the front has remained similar, it's the middle and back-end of the grid
which have closed-up enormously.
This seems to have made things ever more frantic, and whereas before the less quick or experienced drivers would tend to find themselves on their own,
they are now in the middle of many more cars, all with similar pace. I believe this is resulting in more incidents all the way down the field.
At the front i think there has been a change too, with the influx of drivers like yourself, who are more experienced (and often also quicker) than
your average Locoster. The occasional ineptitude of the back of the grid may be more apparent to those with more experience.
The closing up of the field means less allowance that can be made for mistakes now, when the margin between winning and losing is so very tight. The
lead pack is more likely to try scything through backmarkers whereas perhaps before they could have taken a bit more time over it and not risked
losing multiple positions. Again, this leads to more accidents.
I've rambled a bit here, but overall i think we shouldn't have a 10% rule because we're supposed to be an introductory category
using home-built cars. I do, however, think we need longer duration races and more frequent driver-led briefings/discussions to try and reduce some
of the frantic and overly-opportunistic stuff we see in our races.
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nick205
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| posted on 9/1/08 at 01:44 PM |
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OT, but Fozzie! your car is a little to clean and tidy to take on a dirty race track with a load of dirty oiks
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Fozzie
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| posted on 9/1/08 at 01:57 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by nick205
OT, but Fozzie! your car is a little to clean and tidy to take on a dirty race track with a load of dirty oiks
Awww thanks Nick.... 
I have been..... cough/ahem 'banned' by some of the WLM lot from ever racing it...... 
I do like the new 'half' of bonnet and the twin webers.........
But I wont get rid of the regulation carb or other half of bonnet....'just in case'.....
So what to do with it (Fozzmobile that is) ?....
Probably sprints of which I am currently looking in to...........
Fozzie
Sorry to digress Simes....
'Racing is Life!...anything before or after is just waiting'....Steve McQueen
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TGR-ECOSSE
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| posted on 9/1/08 at 01:59 PM |
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They should run the grid in reverse order like they do in stock cars with the newcomers at the front and the fast guys at the back. Its a quick
learning curve as a begginer when you see the whole pack in your mirrors. This sound like any other motorsport and you will not please everybody.
We lost out on the track championship a few years ago by being spun while in the lead by a backmarker. Are we bitter? No not a bit  The
F****** ******* **** useless ***** driver.
Everybody has to start somewhere so maybe the more experienced drivers could offer some advice or have a buddy system to bring on newcomers.
Ronnie
[Edited on 9/1/08 by TGR-ECOSSE]
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simes43
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| posted on 9/1/08 at 02:14 PM |
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It is interesting how people who dont compete have a worryingly low view on what level of safety is acceptable for those that do.
Thanks Rob. Like most classes of racing, the competitiveness has risen over the last number of years, mainly due to an equalisation of equipement, the
secrets getting out and people raising their game.
The classes success is based on their being a good spread of abilities and a lower price barrier to race than most series.
The low price point attracts novices and drivers from other formulas which is great for series and club, however, the cars and more importantly the
racing requires a level of competence to be safe.
The cars by design are open wheelers and should command respect in the way they are driven.
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procomp
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| posted on 9/1/08 at 02:36 PM |
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Hi i can certinally see the benefits of a buddy system being introduced . A simalar thing was done last year in the WSCC sprint championship and from
talking to a few novices from their it seems to have had some benefits.
And is possibly something that could be organised by the drivers committee. Car setup advise is always available FOC by myself for any off the locost
runners.
Also if any of the front runners where doing test / trackdays and didn't mind also helping a novice during the day. They could post on one of
the forums what days they where thinking of doing so as to give a novice the chance to attend if possible and gain some experience or knowledge ect.
I will start that off with Donnington Sun Feb 3rd
Cheers Matt
[Edited on 9/1/08 by procomp]
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andrews_45
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| posted on 9/1/08 at 02:50 PM |
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Hi Simon,
From my point of view (being a newbie) I'd be concerned that if I was not fast enough I'd be going home early. I wouldn't mind if
you got your money back or the next race fees paid for etc... I do understand that there is a safety system, but isn't that why we all had to
do our ARDS test?
On my first race at Snetterton I wouldn't like to predict if I'd be within the 10 percent as I've never raced before let alone seen
Snett.
I think that the Buddy system is a great idea! Any volunteers to help me out at Snetterton pls?
Carl
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D Beddows
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| posted on 9/1/08 at 03:12 PM |
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quote:
It is interesting how people who dont compete have a worryingly low view on what level of safety is acceptable for those that do.
Where the h*ck have you got that from in this discussion? I can't see that anyone has said that driving standards shouldn't be improved
where necessary or that drivers safety should be compromised in any way.
This debate has been going on since the very first Locost race and it comes up again every time there is a bit of an influx of new inexperienced
drivers. The thing is Locost is supposed to be all about new inexperienced drivers - if you're an experienced driver coming into Locost racing
because it's cheaper or more competitive than the formula you're in (there have been a few trophy hunters thinking it would be easy to
win a novice championship too......) or have been around for a few seasons it's something you have to learn to deal with. TBH the 750MC
don't help the situation much either in that I've seen people get away with all manner of on track muppetry without any comeback from the
officials - and once some people see what they've 'got away with' they follow suite.
Things should be done about cr*p driving certainly, in the same way the blatant cheating that went on a few years ago was stamped on, but anything
that discourages novice drivers from coming into Locost racing like a 10% rule should be jumped on from a great height imho
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GazzaP
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| posted on 9/1/08 at 03:51 PM |
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Carl
I'll give you a hand! I will also be at snetterton on the 7th March for a test with lotus on track.
Gary
www.gmpmotorsport.co.uk
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andrews_45
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| posted on 9/1/08 at 04:16 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by GazzaP
Carl
I'll give you a hand! I will also be at snetterton on the 7th March for a test with lotus on track.
Gary
Yay! My wife said I needed some new friends
Nice 1 ta!
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pumpers
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| posted on 9/1/08 at 04:37 PM |
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Simes, I have to disagree with you. I spent 2 years building my car, invested a lot of time, skinned knuckles and every penny I could scrape together
to live the dream and race.
I came into locost exactly because its supposed to be locost even though it ain't. I had absolutely no experience in any form of motorsport
prior to my first race but I did have the desire and commitment to achieve my dream and be a racing driver.
For the first few races I'd have fallen victim to the 10% rule, primarily because I had a bog standard 1300 engine, no setup and no experience.
I'd have been SERIOUSLY PISSED OFF if , after having spent two years in preparation for my first race i was unable to compete as a result of
this rule. Would I still be racing if that was the case? I dont honestly know but I can say that if I paid my entry fee and didn't get to race
then it wouldn't have been very long before I no longer entered the races in the first place.
I still don't have much experience as I can only afford to do 6 races a year. I have been invovled in a few accidents, some of them as a result
of my driving otherss not. The only one with a front runner was in a qualifying session when he could easily have avoided me if he'd lifted but
that would have ruined his hot lap!! After he hit me the whole qualfying session was over for us both!!
I now run in the pack, admitedley towards the back but am gradually moving up and gaining experience. I'm regularly racing with other
inexperienced drivers and have a VERY healthy respect for the novice cross - I know the mistakes I've made and have seen the mistakes others
make close up ! The problem as I see it is that the front runners don't have that much respect for the cross. As a novice seeing 3/4 cars
bearing down on you could easily cause you to panic and do something silly. Those 3/4 cars must appreciate this and therefore take more care when
overtaking. I appreciate that when racing this could cause you to lose track position but surely thats better than having an accident?
The series is specifically aimed at attracting newcomers into motorsport, as it did me. As a result those newcomers will make mistakes and alot will
have no experience ( like me! ) The only way they will get experience and eliminate the mistakes is through racing. Bringing in this rule will only
serve to discourage people from coming into the series to the detriment of all eventually.
As for a mentor scheme, I think its a fantastic idea. I'd have loved to have had a mentor and could still do with one. Saying that nearly
everyone is very friendly and only too willing to offer advice. The problem is its all different advice
Matt, wont be at donny on the 3rd Feb as my car won't be ready be then as you won't have set it up !! Need to book it in. Did you get
my email ?
Craig.
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pumpers
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| posted on 9/1/08 at 04:39 PM |
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Your in a Lotus at snetterton Gary??
God help us !!
Craig
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GazzaP
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| posted on 9/1/08 at 04:52 PM |
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No i'm a member of Lotus on track and they run they own trackdays and they have one a week before the first race a snet so should see how new
engine goes got all the parts back yesterday just need to build it all back up hows yours going?
Gary
www.gmpmotorsport.co.uk
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simes43
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| posted on 9/1/08 at 05:00 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by pumpers
Simes, I have to disagree with you. I spent 2 years building my car, invested a lot of time, skinned knuckles and every penny I could scrape together
to live the dream and race.
I came into locost exactly because its supposed to be locost even though it ain't. I had absolutely no experience in any form of motorsport
prior to my first race but I did have the desire and commitment to achieve my dream and be a racing driver.
For the first few races I'd have fallen victim to the 10% rule, primarily because I had a bog standard 1300 engine, no setup and no experience.
I'd have been SERIOUSLY PISSED OFF if , after having spent two years in preparation for my first race i was unable to compete as a result of
this rule. Would I still be racing if that was the case? I dont honestly know but I can say that if I paid my entry fee and didn't get to race
then it wouldn't have been very long before I no longer entered the races in the first place.
I still don't have much experience as I can only afford to do 6 races a year. I have been invovled in a few accidents, some of them as a result
of my driving otherss not. The only one with a front runner was in a qualifying session when he could easily have avoided me if he'd lifted but
that would have ruined his hot lap!! After he hit me the whole qualfying session was over for us both!!
I now run in the pack, admitedley towards the back but am gradually moving up and gaining experience. I'm regularly racing with other
inexperienced drivers and have a VERY healthy respect for the novice cross - I know the mistakes I've made and have seen the mistakes others
make close up ! The problem as I see it is that the front runners don't have that much respect for the cross. As a novice seeing 3/4 cars
bearing down on you could easily cause you to panic and do something silly. Those 3/4 cars must appreciate this and therefore take more care when
overtaking. I appreciate that when racing this could cause you to lose track position but surely thats better than having an accident?
The series is specifically aimed at attracting newcomers into motorsport, as it did me. As a result those newcomers will make mistakes and alot will
have no experience ( like me! ) The only way they will get experience and eliminate the mistakes is through racing. Bringing in this rule will only
serve to discourage people from coming into the series to the detriment of all eventually.
As for a mentor scheme, I think its a fantastic idea. I'd have loved to have had a mentor and could still do with one. Saying that nearly
everyone is very friendly and only too willing to offer advice. The problem is its all different advice
Matt, wont be at donny on the 3rd Feb as my car won't be ready be then as you won't have set it up !! Need to book it in. Did you get
my email ?
Craig.
No problem with disagreement, thats why its a debate. I am glad that you like the buddy scheme idea, I will have a chat with Keith Messer and Declan
at the Autosport to see if they can make it more official.
In regards to advice/help I am happy to give any to yourself, Carl and anyone else.
The first advice I would give anyone is to book yourself into a trackday prior to entering any event. Get some tuition would be the second.
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Richd
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| posted on 9/1/08 at 05:03 PM |
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The biggest problem with the 10% rule has to be the fact that we only get a 15 min qualifying session. All it takes is a loose plug lead or the like
and were back in the pits and weve lost 5 minutes of the session (plus the slow lap 1 or 2) weve then got to get out and in 3 or 4 laps get within 10%
of the fastest (no pressure there is there).all possible and probably more likely to happen to the lower budget newbie.
If your slow , you know your slow and you keep an eye on your mirrors, but you can make mistakes (who on this forum can say they've never made a
mistake).
I ran the allcomers race at snetterton last september 30mins against radicals, caterhams and allsorts of ultra quick machinery. no problems (lapped 3
or 4 times).
If you look at driving standards then look right through the grid. Look at how you "tee up" the backmarkers to lap them. remember if your
leading the race you are the first to lap him so he may be taken unawares. Blue flag marshalling varies from circuit to circuit and post to post. Dont
assume everything is clear to everyone.
If I blow a motor at a meeting. I would probably fit a near standard engine to fill in while I can build a pukka spec replacement. I'm not going
to win anything but at least I'm out there. 10% rule probably means I drop a few entries while its fixed.
I'm not against driving standards being improved but the 10% rule wont improve them.
No more allcomers races (10% rule).
Guidance (buddy system). discipline (penalties, slapped wrists). And assistance (hug a hoodie sorry hug a novice)
Entry level needs to be accessible. When you spend your hard earned to buy your first race car you dont know how fast you're going to be.
Cheers
Rich
I'm bored, whens the season start?
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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pumpers
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| posted on 9/1/08 at 05:15 PM |
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Gary,
Left my uncle to prep the car for this year !!
Saves me a job or three. I'll still have to check it myself for piece of mind however.
Simes, I agree and tx for the offer of advice. I'll come and say hello at Cadwell which will be my first race this year. I do know most
people now
Rich, I though you built not bought a car hehe 
Craig
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simes43
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| posted on 9/1/08 at 05:40 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by D Beddows
quote:
It is interesting how people who dont compete have a worryingly low view on what level of safety is acceptable for those that do.
Where the h*ck have you got that from in this discussion? I can't see that anyone has said that driving standards shouldn't be improved
where necessary or that drivers safety should be compromised in any way.
This debate has been going on since the very first Locost race and it comes up again every time there is a bit of an influx of new inexperienced
drivers. The thing is Locost is supposed to be all about new inexperienced drivers - if you're an experienced driver coming into Locost racing
because it's cheaper or more competitive than the formula you're in (there have been a few trophy hunters thinking it would be easy to
win a novice championship too......) or have been around for a few seasons it's something you have to learn to deal with. TBH the 750MC
don't help the situation much either in that I've seen people get away with all manner of on track muppetry without any comeback from the
officials - and once some people see what they've 'got away with' they follow suite.
Things should be done about cr*p driving certainly, in the same way the blatant cheating that went on a few years ago was stamped on, but anything
that discourages novice drivers from coming into Locost racing like a 10% rule should be jumped on from a great height imho
Third bit of advice, know the Blue book..............
Racing / Practice Restrictions
4.4.3 Drivers whose best lap exceeds by more than 10% that of the third fastest car within its class(where similar weather conditions prevailed),
maybe excluded at the descretion of the CofC.
The fact that the 750mc do not often enforce the rule, does not mean that they wont next season.
Like the stop go and drive through penalties that are being introduced, why should the club not enforce a rule in the blue book if it stops one
accident like Samirs?
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MkIndy7
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| posted on 9/1/08 at 05:45 PM |
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This its probably going to sound rather silly but:
Make the novice drivers have substantially biggerbetter placed mirrors?
If lots of the problems are caused by lapping and cars bearing down on Novices.
The Aerodynamics or the looks for race use aren't really such an issue surely.
The race series obviousley finds a need to identify novices by marking their cars, so how about giving them an aid to help there observation and to
encourage them.
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pumpers
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| posted on 9/1/08 at 06:50 PM |
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A very good idea Indy.
I originally used the mirror from my donor car, at speed it just moved and pointed at the sky!! Good job my wing mirrors didnt do the same! ( and I
use them )
Maybe a control mirror as per the demon tweeks oval racing mirror pg 449 ! You can see everything behind you with these!!
Craig
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Richd
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| posted on 9/1/08 at 07:06 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by pumpers
Rich, I though you built not bought a car hehe
Craig
Too time consuming & too costly
Bigger Mirrors???
Patent Novice Locost Mirror for the use
of
Suggest it stays on car until novice cross comes off
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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pumpers
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| posted on 9/1/08 at 07:14 PM |
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That should do nicely Rich !! Should also assist with the aerodynamics if fitted correctly.
Craig
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Rob Palin
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 posted on 9/1/08 at 07:29 PM |
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Something i didn't mention before was that out of the 4.5 seasons i've done, by far the most enjoyable times have been either when
i've been at the back or (briefly) at the front.
I found that at the back the people were generally more cautious and respectful of each other's cars. At the front i found the extra skill and
experience meant that people knew where to put their car and how to do so accurately (which did mean some collisions were deliberate though!).
In the midfield i've found it really hard going as people are often over-driving in the hope that it'll push them further up.
That's something that enforcing the 10% rule won't really help.
I think the other suggestions (buddy system, etc) are excellent though.
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Richard Quinn
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| posted on 9/1/08 at 08:11 PM |
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I will point out from the start that I have NOT raced Locosts but will add that I have raced and I have raced open wheelers. I have to say that, in my
experience, whilst back markers can be an issue so can the red mist induced stupidity at the mid to front of the pack. The difference is that under a
buddy system or similar the novice/back markers are usually willing to both listen to and accept advice after the fact. They will take on board what
they could have done differently or better but it's a slightly different story if you try giving one of the superstars a bit of constructive
criticism!
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simes43
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| posted on 9/1/08 at 09:00 PM |
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All good stuff then.
The Buddy scheme idea needs a little work, but would be welcomed by most. I will ask Keith and Declan for their input on Saturday.
It seems the only way it could work is by making it compulsory for the top 10 to help out. Dropped points would hurt!
In regards to mid field racing, its dreadful like most formulas.
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