Anyway isn't as much damaged caused to front runners nowadays from other front runners slipstreaming each other and not getting it quite right?
Given the alarming number of totally avoidable accidents happening between front running cars and back markers in 2007, I am going to ask for the 10%
qualifying rule to be observed by the 750mc.
Anyone up for a debate?
thats fine if your fast enough.
I have no experience of racing myself, but maybe some driver training be a more effective approach rather than shutting people out. Most people have to start somewhere and todays back markers might be tomorrows front runners.
This does not seem fair the best option is the marshalls to use the flags better!
It's a bit miserable of you that! Locost racing is club level motorsport ie a hobby AND it was designed for novice racers some of whom might not
be that quick in their first few races. How are they going to get the race (and driving) experience if they're stopped from racing and why are
they going to bother in the first place if they have to spend a couple of hundred quid to turn up on the day and not get a race.
Anyway isn't as much damaged caused to front runners nowadays from other front runners slipstreaming each other and not getting it quite right?
Hi what alarming number of accidents between front and back runners.
Better driving standards YES.
10% rule will only make it harder for complete newcomers / novices to get the experience they need to learn to become better.
It should be remembered that the locost formula is aimed at new people to motorsport and helping them to work their way up the motorsport ladder.
If front running drivers are finding problems with back runners then there's plenty of ways to sort this out by talking to officials ect.
Cheers Matt
Good stuff.
I am not sure that money and being fair stacks up here.
I think I understand the "10% Rule" from others replies, but would you care to explain it in detail?
Steve
Doesn't seem fair to me. A few years back I used to mechanic for a mate of mine in the supersport 600 class that ran with the British superbike
races. They had a similar thing to keep the number of qualifiers down for the race and some of the time he didn't even qualify that made the
weekend a total waste of time and his hard earnt money in entrance fees, tyres e.t.c.
Not the same I know but same principle.
Think about it the other way as if you were just starting out as a novice.
[Edited on 9/1/08 by stuart_g]
quote:
I am not sure that money and being fair stacks up here.
not if it's your first race and you've paid your race entry, driven maybe a couple of hundred miles and
spent the night in a hotel ..... then because you weren't quite quick enough in practice you're not allowed to race.... quite a lot of money
and not at all fair!
OK. If the rule was observed, what would happen? Within 10% of the third fastest time in constant conditions.
Very few over the complete 2007 season would have been disallowed to race. A 20% rule would have caught some......
A very low bar has been introduced to give any newcomer a minimum to aim for.
A level of safety for everyone has been introduced.
Trying to unpick accidents via the CofC office is mitigated.
Waiting for a blue flag that never appears and is read incorrectly. In a 13 minute race, lapping traffic should not really happen.
Most of the accidents have been caused by drivers racing around in a bubble and not paying attention to whats going on behind them.
In regards to costs, Samirs accident damage at Combe was far higher than the entrance fee!
quote:
Originally posted by procomp
Hi what alarming number of accidents between front and back runners.
Better driving standards YES.
10% rule will only make it harder for complete newcomers / novices to get the experience they need to learn to become better.
It should be remembered that the locost formula is aimed at new people to motorsport and helping them to work their way up the motorsport ladder.
If front running drivers are finding problems with back runners then there's plenty of ways to sort this out by talking to officials ect.
Cheers Matt
If 'very few people over the 2007 season' would have been outside the 10% what would it change introducing the rule?
I don't quite get what you're objecting to tbh - is it people driving slowly or people driving like muppets? if the latter then, as Fozzie
has just said, there has never been a muppet shortage at the front of the field either!!
quote:
Originally posted by simes43
OK. If the rule was observed, what would happen? Within 10% of the third fastest time in constant conditions.
Very few over the complete 2007 season would have been disallowed to race. A 20% rule would have caught some......
Then the point of introducing the 10% rule is........?
Fozzie - 9/1/08 at 11:49 AMquote:
Originally posted by simes43
OK. If the rule was observed, what would happen? Within 10% of the third fastest time in constant conditions.
Very few over the complete 2007 season would have been disallowed to race. A 20% rule would have caught some......
A very low bar has been introduced to give any newcomer a minimum to aim for.
A level of safety for everyone has been introduced.
Trying to unpick accidents via the CofC office is mitigated.
Waiting for a blue flag that never appears and is read incorrectly. In a 13 minute race, lapping traffic should not really happen.
Most of the accidents have been caused by drivers racing around in a bubble and not paying attention to whats going on behind them.
In regards to costs, Samirs accident damage at Combe was far higher than the entrance fee!
Welcome to motorsport!..........
Have you followed / competed in any other series?
As for 'Lapping shouldn't really happen'......I am flabbergasted!........
So...you are saying, that no one should never spin?... go off the track?.... stall? ........get restarted.......all of that takes how long? ..... over what length track?..and yet you say... 'over taking shouldn't really happen?......
Fozzie
simes43 - 9/1/08 at 12:08 PM
Description
The accident above was caused by a 10% er swerving in front of the pack on the 4th lap of a race at Combe while being lapped. No spin, just a complete lack of competence.
A very similar accident to the one at Snetterton involving Adam White.
onzarob - 9/1/08 at 12:12 PMBeing new here,Do I get the feeling that what should/is a Budget Motorsport is being dominated by people who have a very large budget?
This then end up in the some of the so called Front runners thinking they have a greater right to be competing.
I suppose the answer is a junior and advanced split. Ie first 2 seasons your Junior and then your advanced....or is this already the case ?
(be nice I'm trying to understand)
Fozzie - 9/1/08 at 12:15 PMYes I remember that! Samir was indeed lucky....
But...that IS motorsport.......it also happens in F1 and every other series of motorsport.......one blip of concentration...and.....
No matter how good you are/think you are..it IS a dangerous pastime.
Fozzie
stuart_g - 9/1/08 at 12:19 PMSo you plan to stop the novice incompetent crash causing people from entering races by stopping them qualifying....hmmm
How lucky you are being born with a racing instinct and being so fast.
How many accidents are caused by "the front runners" not wanting to give up their position on the last corner of the last lap. How incompetent of them.
simes43 - 9/1/08 at 12:25 PMquote:
Originally posted by onzarob
Being new here,Do I get the feeling that what should/is a Budget Motorsport is being dominated by people who have a very large budget?
This then end up in the some of the so called Front runners thinking they have a greater right to be competing.
I suppose the answer is a junior and advanced split. Ie first 2 seasons your Junior and then your advanced....or is this already the case ?
(be nice I'm trying to understand
Nope, nothing to do with budgets/front runners,the accident in the photo happened in the middle of the pack caused by a driver running around so slowly that they got lapped early in a race and then caused an accident by swerving from one side of the circuit to the other while driving in splendid isolation.
The reason for introducing the debate is for safety reasons only
Fozzie - 9/1/08 at 12:30 PMWhen some of the accidents that I have witnessed in the Locost 750 have happened, there does appear to be a lack of knowledge on damage limitation manouvres.... by most, not just newbies!
Hence wouldn't it be more beneficial for the 750mc to organize some track days where driver tuition was available? Especially pre season and for newbies to the sport...ie First Season.....and everyone to be encouraged to 'brush up their skills' ?
IMHO of course
Fozzie
onzarob - 9/1/08 at 12:34 PMquote:
Originally posted by simes43
Nope, nothing to do with budgets/front runners,the accident in the photo happened in the middle of the pack caused by a driver running around so slowly that they got lapped early in a race and then caused an accident by swerving from one side of the circuit to the other while driving in splendid isolation.
Well that does sound like Bad driving, Was this driver consistently slow throughout the series or was he having a bad car day, but decided to make the most of the track time
BenB - 9/1/08 at 12:36 PMIt's simple
Do qualifying as normal.
Give the leaders weight penalties to slow them down a bit.... Like success ballast but qualifting ballast!!
IE
Pole position + 2nd = 30kg
3rd + 4th = 25kg
5th + 6th = 20kg
etc etc
That would create more overtaking and less lapping...
Obviously 30kg might not be the right amount to start with but hopefully you'll get my drift....
simes43 - 9/1/08 at 12:59 PMNow we are getting there Fozzie!
Everyone can improve their game and standards. Front to back. Perhaps we can tempt Fozzie into a race car............so he can be the first driver in history not to moan about backmarkers!
I will also be proposing at the 750 "meet" a buddy system for novices to be mated with top ten drivers to help them with their approach to a meeting, car set up, driving etc.
The 10% rule is instigated at the CofC's discretion, its in the blue book. It is applied after qualifying, not before and is based on the safety for all competitors.
Fozzie - 9/1/08 at 01:14 PMquote:
Originally posted by simes43
Now we are getting there Fozzie!
Everyone can improve their game and standards. Front to back. Perhaps we can tempt Fozzie into a race car............so he can be the first driver in history not to moan about backmarkers!
I will also be proposing at the 750 "meet" a buddy system for novices to be mated with top ten drivers to help them with their approach to a meeting, car set up, driving etc.
The 10% rule is instigated at the CofC's discretion, its in the blue book. It is applied after qualifying, not before and is based on the safety for all competitors.
Trouble with that one is Fozzie (me) isn't a 'he' ........I, is a 'she'....
and that would mean taking me 40's out, putting that 'regs' carb back on...and changine me half a bonnet!
And.....I would have to watch you lot ...again....for a few races first......and hope for a vast all round improvement from the 'top' few drivers at the very least!
I still think for a 'entry' series, using the 10% is very much out of order........just get your race committee to encourage the 750mc to arrange accessible and affordable driver/track/skills training days for ALL...
Fozzie
Fozzie - 9/1/08 at 01:23 PMOoooops forgot to say......
I have never moaned about back-markers.....in every race there has to be someone at the back...and the locost series is about having fun and learning......it seems to me that perhaps some of the entrants should be looking to race in another series....... where having fun isn't the name of the game......
Please don't lose sight of the series being 'entry' level racing......
Fozzie
Rob Palin - 9/1/08 at 01:44 PMHi Simon,
Although i haven't had as serious an accident as Samir, i have had several easily avoidable incidents with backmarkers but also mid/front runners too, and i'm not sure any of them could have been avoided by applying the 10% rule (though one could have been avoided if the guy had noticed the black flag they waved at him for 15 consecutive laps at Brands!).
I've not been involved in Locost racing as long as Mr Beddows or Matt, i have seen a definite change over the past 5 years. For my first race there was at least one road-spec Locost and the spread of the grid was around 15 seconds (at Donington). Last summer at Mallory wasn't it something like the top 25 being covered by a second?
The poles/lap records have dropped a bit but the speed of the guys at the front has remained similar, it's the middle and back-end of the grid which have closed-up enormously.
This seems to have made things ever more frantic, and whereas before the less quick or experienced drivers would tend to find themselves on their own, they are now in the middle of many more cars, all with similar pace. I believe this is resulting in more incidents all the way down the field.
At the front i think there has been a change too, with the influx of drivers like yourself, who are more experienced (and often also quicker) than your average Locoster. The occasional ineptitude of the back of the grid may be more apparent to those with more experience.
The closing up of the field means less allowance that can be made for mistakes now, when the margin between winning and losing is so very tight. The lead pack is more likely to try scything through backmarkers whereas perhaps before they could have taken a bit more time over it and not risked losing multiple positions. Again, this leads to more accidents.
I've rambled a bit here, but overall i think we shouldn't have a 10% rule because we're supposed to be an introductory category using home-built cars. I do, however, think we need longer duration races and more frequent driver-led briefings/discussions to try and reduce some of the frantic and overly-opportunistic stuff we see in our races.
nick205 - 9/1/08 at 01:44 PMOT, but Fozzie! your car is a little to clean and tidy to take on a dirty race track with a load of dirty oiks
Fozzie - 9/1/08 at 01:57 PMquote:
Originally posted by nick205
OT, but Fozzie! your car is a little to clean and tidy to take on a dirty race track with a load of dirty oiks
Awww thanks Nick....
I have been..... cough/ahem 'banned' by some of the WLM lot from ever racing it......
I do like the new 'half' of bonnet and the twin webers.........
But I wont get rid of the regulation carb or other half of bonnet....'just in case'.....
So what to do with it (Fozzmobile that is) ?....
Probably sprints of which I am currently looking in to...........
Fozzie
Sorry to digress Simes....
TGR-ECOSSE - 9/1/08 at 01:59 PMThey should run the grid in reverse order like they do in stock cars with the newcomers at the front and the fast guys at the back. Its a quick learning curve as a begginer when you see the whole pack in your mirrors.
This sound like any other motorsport and you will not please everybody. We lost out on the track championship a few years ago by being spun while in the lead by a backmarker. Are we bitter? No not a bit
The F****** ******* **** useless ***** driver.
Everybody has to start somewhere so maybe the more experienced drivers could offer some advice or have a buddy system to bring on newcomers.
Ronnie
[Edited on 9/1/08 by TGR-ECOSSE]
simes43 - 9/1/08 at 02:14 PMIt is interesting how people who dont compete have a worryingly low view on what level of safety is acceptable for those that do.
Thanks Rob. Like most classes of racing, the competitiveness has risen over the last number of years, mainly due to an equalisation of equipement, the secrets getting out and people raising their game.
The classes success is based on their being a good spread of abilities and a lower price barrier to race than most series.
The low price point attracts novices and drivers from other formulas which is great for series and club, however, the cars and more importantly the racing requires a level of competence to be safe.
The cars by design are open wheelers and should command respect in the way they are driven.
procomp - 9/1/08 at 02:36 PMHi i can certinally see the benefits of a buddy system being introduced . A simalar thing was done last year in the WSCC sprint championship and from talking to a few novices from their it seems to have had some benefits.
And is possibly something that could be organised by the drivers committee. Car setup advise is always available FOC by myself for any off the locost runners.
Also if any of the front runners where doing test / trackdays and didn't mind also helping a novice during the day. They could post on one of the forums what days they where thinking of doing so as to give a novice the chance to attend if possible and gain some experience or knowledge ect.
I will start that off with Donnington Sun Feb 3rd
Cheers Matt
[Edited on 9/1/08 by procomp]
andrews_45 - 9/1/08 at 02:50 PMHi Simon,
From my point of view (being a newbie) I'd be concerned that if I was not fast enough I'd be going home early. I wouldn't mind if you got your money back or the next race fees paid for etc... I do understand that there is a safety system, but isn't that why we all had to do our ARDS test?
On my first race at Snetterton I wouldn't like to predict if I'd be within the 10 percent as I've never raced before let alone seen Snett.
I think that the Buddy system is a great idea! Any volunteers to help me out at Snetterton pls?
Carl
D Beddows - 9/1/08 at 03:12 PMquote:
It is interesting how people who dont compete have a worryingly low view on what level of safety is acceptable for those that do.
Where the h*ck have you got that from in this discussion? I can't see that anyone has said that driving standards shouldn't be improved where necessary or that drivers safety should be compromised in any way.
This debate has been going on since the very first Locost race and it comes up again every time there is a bit of an influx of new inexperienced drivers. The thing is Locost is supposed to be all about new inexperienced drivers - if you're an experienced driver coming into Locost racing because it's cheaper or more competitive than the formula you're in (there have been a few trophy hunters thinking it would be easy to win a novice championship too......) or have been around for a few seasons it's something you have to learn to deal with. TBH the 750MC don't help the situation much either in that I've seen people get away with all manner of on track muppetry without any comeback from the officials - and once some people see what they've 'got away with' they follow suite.
Things should be done about cr*p driving certainly, in the same way the blatant cheating that went on a few years ago was stamped on, but anything that discourages novice drivers from coming into Locost racing like a 10% rule should be jumped on from a great height imho
GazzaP - 9/1/08 at 03:51 PMCarl
I'll give you a hand! I will also be at snetterton on the 7th March for a test with lotus on track.
Gary
andrews_45 - 9/1/08 at 04:16 PMquote:
Originally posted by GazzaP
Carl
I'll give you a hand! I will also be at snetterton on the 7th March for a test with lotus on track.
Gary
Yay! My wife said I needed some new friends
Nice 1 ta!
pumpers - 9/1/08 at 04:37 PMSimes, I have to disagree with you. I spent 2 years building my car, invested a lot of time, skinned knuckles and every penny I could scrape together to live the dream and race.
I came into locost exactly because its supposed to be locost even though it ain't. I had absolutely no experience in any form of motorsport prior to my first race but I did have the desire and commitment to achieve my dream and be a racing driver.
For the first few races I'd have fallen victim to the 10% rule, primarily because I had a bog standard 1300 engine, no setup and no experience. I'd have been SERIOUSLY PISSED OFF if , after having spent two years in preparation for my first race i was unable to compete as a result of this rule. Would I still be racing if that was the case? I dont honestly know but I can say that if I paid my entry fee and didn't get to race then it wouldn't have been very long before I no longer entered the races in the first place.
I still don't have much experience as I can only afford to do 6 races a year. I have been invovled in a few accidents, some of them as a result of my driving otherss not. The only one with a front runner was in a qualifying session when he could easily have avoided me if he'd lifted but that would have ruined his hot lap!! After he hit me the whole qualfying session was over for us both!!
I now run in the pack, admitedley towards the back but am gradually moving up and gaining experience. I'm regularly racing with other inexperienced drivers and have a VERY healthy respect for the novice cross - I know the mistakes I've made and have seen the mistakes others make close up ! The problem as I see it is that the front runners don't have that much respect for the cross. As a novice seeing 3/4 cars bearing down on you could easily cause you to panic and do something silly. Those 3/4 cars must appreciate this and therefore take more care when overtaking. I appreciate that when racing this could cause you to lose track position but surely thats better than having an accident?
The series is specifically aimed at attracting newcomers into motorsport, as it did me. As a result those newcomers will make mistakes and alot will have no experience ( like me! ) The only way they will get experience and eliminate the mistakes is through racing. Bringing in this rule will only serve to discourage people from coming into the series to the detriment of all eventually.
As for a mentor scheme, I think its a fantastic idea. I'd have loved to have had a mentor and could still do with one. Saying that nearly everyone is very friendly and only too willing to offer advice. The problem is its all different advice
Matt, wont be at donny on the 3rd Feb as my car won't be ready be then as you won't have set it up !! Need to book it in. Did you get my email ?
Craig.
pumpers - 9/1/08 at 04:39 PMYour in a Lotus at snetterton Gary??
God help us !!
Craig
GazzaP - 9/1/08 at 04:52 PMNo i'm a member of Lotus on track and they run they own trackdays and they have one a week before the first race a snet so should see how new engine goes got all the parts back yesterday just need to build it all back up hows yours going?
Gary
simes43 - 9/1/08 at 05:00 PMquote:
Originally posted by pumpers
Simes, I have to disagree with you. I spent 2 years building my car, invested a lot of time, skinned knuckles and every penny I could scrape together to live the dream and race.
I came into locost exactly because its supposed to be locost even though it ain't. I had absolutely no experience in any form of motorsport prior to my first race but I did have the desire and commitment to achieve my dream and be a racing driver.
For the first few races I'd have fallen victim to the 10% rule, primarily because I had a bog standard 1300 engine, no setup and no experience. I'd have been SERIOUSLY PISSED OFF if , after having spent two years in preparation for my first race i was unable to compete as a result of this rule. Would I still be racing if that was the case? I dont honestly know but I can say that if I paid my entry fee and didn't get to race then it wouldn't have been very long before I no longer entered the races in the first place.
I still don't have much experience as I can only afford to do 6 races a year. I have been invovled in a few accidents, some of them as a result of my driving otherss not. The only one with a front runner was in a qualifying session when he could easily have avoided me if he'd lifted but that would have ruined his hot lap!! After he hit me the whole qualfying session was over for us both!!
I now run in the pack, admitedley towards the back but am gradually moving up and gaining experience. I'm regularly racing with other inexperienced drivers and have a VERY healthy respect for the novice cross - I know the mistakes I've made and have seen the mistakes others make close up ! The problem as I see it is that the front runners don't have that much respect for the cross. As a novice seeing 3/4 cars bearing down on you could easily cause you to panic and do something silly. Those 3/4 cars must appreciate this and therefore take more care when overtaking. I appreciate that when racing this could cause you to lose track position but surely thats better than having an accident?
The series is specifically aimed at attracting newcomers into motorsport, as it did me. As a result those newcomers will make mistakes and alot will have no experience ( like me! ) The only way they will get experience and eliminate the mistakes is through racing. Bringing in this rule will only serve to discourage people from coming into the series to the detriment of all eventually.
As for a mentor scheme, I think its a fantastic idea. I'd have loved to have had a mentor and could still do with one. Saying that nearly everyone is very friendly and only too willing to offer advice. The problem is its all different advice
Matt, wont be at donny on the 3rd Feb as my car won't be ready be then as you won't have set it up !! Need to book it in. Did you get my email ?
Craig.
No problem with disagreement, thats why its a debate. I am glad that you like the buddy scheme idea, I will have a chat with Keith Messer and Declan at the Autosport to see if they can make it more official.
In regards to advice/help I am happy to give any to yourself, Carl and anyone else.
The first advice I would give anyone is to book yourself into a trackday prior to entering any event. Get some tuition would be the second.
Richd - 9/1/08 at 05:03 PMThe biggest problem with the 10% rule has to be the fact that we only get a 15 min qualifying session. All it takes is a loose plug lead or the like and were back in the pits and weve lost 5 minutes of the session (plus the slow lap 1 or 2) weve then got to get out and in 3 or 4 laps get within 10% of the fastest (no pressure there is there).all possible and probably more likely to happen to the lower budget newbie.
If your slow , you know your slow and you keep an eye on your mirrors, but you can make mistakes (who on this forum can say they've never made a mistake).
I ran the allcomers race at snetterton last september 30mins against radicals, caterhams and allsorts of ultra quick machinery. no problems (lapped 3 or 4 times).
If you look at driving standards then look right through the grid. Look at how you "tee up" the backmarkers to lap them. remember if your leading the race you are the first to lap him so he may be taken unawares. Blue flag marshalling varies from circuit to circuit and post to post. Dont assume everything is clear to everyone.
If I blow a motor at a meeting. I would probably fit a near standard engine to fill in while I can build a pukka spec replacement. I'm not going to win anything but at least I'm out there. 10% rule probably means I drop a few entries while its fixed.
I'm not against driving standards being improved but the 10% rule wont improve them.
No more allcomers races (10% rule).
Guidance (buddy system). discipline (penalties, slapped wrists). And assistance (hug a hoodie sorry hug a novice)
Entry level needs to be accessible. When you spend your hard earned to buy your first race car you dont know how fast you're going to be.
Cheers
Rich
I'm bored, whens the season start?
pumpers - 9/1/08 at 05:15 PMGary,
Left my uncle to prep the car for this year !!
Saves me a job or three. I'll still have to check it myself for piece of mind however.
Simes, I agree and tx for the offer of advice. I'll come and say hello at Cadwell which will be my first race this year. I do know most people now
Rich, I though you built not bought a car hehe
Craig
simes43 - 9/1/08 at 05:40 PMquote:
Originally posted by D Beddows
quote:
It is interesting how people who dont compete have a worryingly low view on what level of safety is acceptable for those that do.
Where the h*ck have you got that from in this discussion? I can't see that anyone has said that driving standards shouldn't be improved where necessary or that drivers safety should be compromised in any way.
This debate has been going on since the very first Locost race and it comes up again every time there is a bit of an influx of new inexperienced drivers. The thing is Locost is supposed to be all about new inexperienced drivers - if you're an experienced driver coming into Locost racing because it's cheaper or more competitive than the formula you're in (there have been a few trophy hunters thinking it would be easy to win a novice championship too......) or have been around for a few seasons it's something you have to learn to deal with. TBH the 750MC don't help the situation much either in that I've seen people get away with all manner of on track muppetry without any comeback from the officials - and once some people see what they've 'got away with' they follow suite.
Things should be done about cr*p driving certainly, in the same way the blatant cheating that went on a few years ago was stamped on, but anything that discourages novice drivers from coming into Locost racing like a 10% rule should be jumped on from a great height imho
Third bit of advice, know the Blue book..............
Racing / Practice Restrictions
4.4.3 Drivers whose best lap exceeds by more than 10% that of the third fastest car within its class(where similar weather conditions prevailed), maybe excluded at the descretion of the CofC.
The fact that the 750mc do not often enforce the rule, does not mean that they wont next season.
Like the stop go and drive through penalties that are being introduced, why should the club not enforce a rule in the blue book if it stops one accident like Samirs?
MkIndy7 - 9/1/08 at 05:45 PMThis its probably going to sound rather silly but:
Make the novice drivers have substantially biggerbetter placed mirrors?
If lots of the problems are caused by lapping and cars bearing down on Novices.
The Aerodynamics or the looks for race use aren't really such an issue surely.
The race series obviousley finds a need to identify novices by marking their cars, so how about giving them an aid to help there observation and to encourage them.
pumpers - 9/1/08 at 06:50 PMA very good idea Indy.
I originally used the mirror from my donor car, at speed it just moved and pointed at the sky!! Good job my wing mirrors didnt do the same! ( and I use them
Maybe a control mirror as per the demon tweeks oval racing mirror pg 449 ! You can see everything behind you with these!!
Craig
Richd - 9/1/08 at 07:06 PMquote:
Originally posted by pumpers
Rich, I though you built not bought a car hehe
Craig
Too time consuming & too costly
Bigger Mirrors???
Patent Novice Locost Mirror for the use of
Suggest it stays on car until novice cross comes off
pumpers - 9/1/08 at 07:14 PMThat should do nicely Rich !! Should also assist with the aerodynamics if fitted correctly.
Craig
Rob Palin - 9/1/08 at 07:29 PMSomething i didn't mention before was that out of the 4.5 seasons i've done, by far the most enjoyable times have been either when i've been at the back or (briefly) at the front.
I found that at the back the people were generally more cautious and respectful of each other's cars. At the front i found the extra skill and experience meant that people knew where to put their car and how to do so accurately (which did mean some collisions were deliberate though!).
In the midfield i've found it really hard going as people are often over-driving in the hope that it'll push them further up. That's something that enforcing the 10% rule won't really help.
I think the other suggestions (buddy system, etc) are excellent though.
Richard Quinn - 9/1/08 at 08:11 PMI will point out from the start that I have NOT raced Locosts but will add that I have raced and I have raced open wheelers. I have to say that, in my experience, whilst back markers can be an issue so can the red mist induced stupidity at the mid to front of the pack. The difference is that under a buddy system or similar the novice/back markers are usually willing to both listen to and accept advice after the fact. They will take on board what they could have done differently or better but it's a slightly different story if you try giving one of the superstars a bit of constructive criticism!
simes43 - 9/1/08 at 09:00 PMAll good stuff then.
The Buddy scheme idea needs a little work, but would be welcomed by most. I will ask Keith and Declan for their input on Saturday.
It seems the only way it could work is by making it compulsory for the top 10 to help out. Dropped points would hurt!
In regards to mid field racing, its dreadful like most formulas.
stevetzoid - 12/1/08 at 01:50 AMHi Guys I seem to remember being t- boned at Silverstone by someone who shall remain anonymous but my laptimes in dry practise were up with the lap record for locost, this person had a bad restart according to others and they said the red mist desended, he was a so called " Front Runner" That took me clean out. My thoughts no body does things deliberately, Declan seems to avoid the problems and he has won the championship 2 years running I beleive.
D Beddows - 12/1/08 at 03:29 AMlol
wouldn't be anyone here surely
procomp - 12/1/08 at 02:18 PMHi well except for the one at combe with Samir i and others cant think of any other major problems that have occurred between front and back runners over the last 3-4 years.
So it would seem that there is no real problem to be dealt with. The buddy system would be a good idea but i think trying to make it compulsory is also a bit pointless as someone is either willing to help or is not. But plenty of drivers whether it be front - mid - back of the field are always ready to give advice and help regardless.
Maybe it needs driving standard through the whole field looking at as there have been more accidents due to people not knowing when to concede a corner and ending up with two cars off rather than conceding that they have been beat at that corner and being able to have a go back at the next. ( RED MIST) And not driving with there head would then seem to be the biggest cause of accidents.
However i think that it should be pointed out that there are not that many accident occurring in the locost championship. Even if this thread dose seem to make it look like it is a problem. It is one of the UK'S biggest and closest championships so some accident are always going to happen. One other way that the chances of front runners lapping the back markers so quickly would be if the number of entrants was to increase by another 5-7 it would mean that almost all rounds would be a heat and final. This will obviously mean that the drivers in each race will be of a closer pace to each other. But as I've said i don't see where the problem is and certainly do not think that a 10% rule will do anything to help at all.
Well i cant wait for the season to start. And as i will be racing in the locost championship this year i am certinally looking forward to some good close racing.
Cheers Matt
pumpers - 12/1/08 at 02:26 PMNice to hear you'll be racing Matt, that puts me back another place !!!!
Craig
pointy - 12/1/08 at 05:41 PMI am the wife of a Novice Locost Driver, we have always loved Motor Racing and until recently could only afford to watch. Now with two full time jobs, a lot of family sacrifices and some innovative budgeting my husband has managed to compete in a couple of races.
No he's never going to be the next Lewis Hamilton but he is out there and improving every time. We have booked as many track days as we can afford over the winter so that he can practice and indeed I have had the pleasure of having a drive myself. I would love to have a go at racing myself BUT having read this thread and heard some of the comments from the front runners feel that maybe me being such a liability with all the responsibility of not taking them off would seriously diminish my enjoyment. Whats the point in even trying if I'm going to be treated with so much disdain.
We have always received nothing but help and encouragement from the middle and back runners but have never so much as had a by your leave from many (although not all) the so called front runners. I am assuming from this that the front runners came straight in as exactly that (or else they've forgotten what its like).
We have gained some fantastic friends and acquaintances at the meetings we have attended and although winning would be fantastic (actually achieving something under 25th would be great!) we are realistic that with our budget and lack of expertise this is unlikely to happen in the near future, but we still enjoy all the aspects of racing PLEASE don't spoil it by trying to get us stopped before we even start. The heats are usually enough to get rid of us anyway!
Anyway if you're so good a driving I'm sure once you see a novice sticker you are aware that the driver of the car is likely to be unsure and will take the necessary care to get round them safely!
I am booked onto a NOVICE trackday at Snetterton and will enjoy my day, who knows I might even have a hidden talent!!!!
Elaine
simes43 - 12/1/08 at 09:37 PMOK. One more time for the record, the 10% rule is not a Simon Wood, 750mc or an individual circuit rule. It is an MSA blue book statement that the Clerk of the Course can , if he wishes, not allow a driver to participate in an event due to their apparent lack of speed and potentially their current level competence at controlling a race car. Its not a new rule, its been around for years.
The rule is not designed to cripple a novices ambitions, , just set a very basic level of ability, a discretionary one at that. No one gives you the keys to a helicopter and says “ have a go, see how you get on”. I spend my own spare time teaching young race drivers in how to approach racing and to diminish the massive gap between completing the ARDS test and actually racing for real. I also spend time in the paddock helping those that ask ,improve their lap time, improve their game. I never hold back information or refuse to offer experience to those who want to go faster.
Misguidedly a number believe that the reason I stared this “debate” was to banish novices from the grid so that my race would not be potentially spoiled by the hindrance of a slower car ruining my progress. Sorry, a really superficial argument, I only have contempt for.
The reason I posted was because I was asked to. As has been pointed out, racing is dangerous and for those who have actually competed, quite often bloody frightening . The reason I started this was because of safety, not trophies, not points.
When and only when you are competing at a meeting and someone is killed do you really understand how bloody terrible a day at the races can be. Those that have, know what I mean, those that don’t, well, you have made yourself known.
Samir was bloody lucky at Combe last year, bloody lucky.
[Edited on 13/1/08 by simes43]
simes43 - 13/1/08 at 01:37 AMquote:
Originally posted by stevetzoid
Hi Guys I seem to remember being t- boned at Silverstone by someone who shall remain anonymous but my laptimes in dry practise were up with the lap record for locost, this person had a bad restart according to others and they said the red mist desended, he was a so called " Front Runner" That took me clean out. My thoughts no body does things deliberately, Declan seems to avoid the problems and he has won the championship 2 years running I beleive.
What a torrid time you must have had a Silverstone. Firstly the accident caused by Tony Jones driving across the front of my car which resulted in contact between our selves and then you being T boned by someone else. Two seperate accidents, tough day.
Richd - 13/1/08 at 11:04 AMIf you want to look at driving standards you need to look right the way up the grid. During races last year I have twice been unceremoniously shoved out of the way during qualifying by "front runners" in places which are accepted as not overtaking opportunities.
The ten percent rule, as you say, is already there if it becomes a problem. but lets be fair it does only look at one side of the problem.
Elaine, I totally agree, It places another hurdle in our way to becoming racers.
Most of the legislation is in place. I suggest use the rules & enforce them.
Cheers
Rich
procomp - 13/1/08 at 11:11 AMHi just out of interest who has asked you to raise this question of the 10%. As you say you where asked to in the above post.
And is this forum the best place for it to be raised.
Cheers Matt
simes43 - 13/1/08 at 11:24 AMRichd, you are right, driving standards do need to be looked at up and down the field. And they are.
The 2008 regs have a number of class only rules that have been introduced to punish poor driving.
pointy - 13/1/08 at 11:48 AMDear Simes43,
Thank you for your reply - I appreciate being allowed to make my point even though I do not race.
I would however point out we all want racing to be as safe as possible and it is not only those that actually compete that understand how terrible a day at the races can be - us bystanders often feel sick to their stomachs watching a loved one race - I certainly don't take accidents lightly just because I don't compete.
I was not pointing the finger with regard to the amount of help received but can only speak from experience. Do you realise how hard it is to ask for help from a front runner when you are only just starting out and know so very little. This is why the Buddy Scheme would be a fantastic way forward....there would be no such thing as a silly question.
I also know you would not be given the keys to a helicopter and told to get on with it, of course you would have a co pilot ..so why can't the Buddy Scheme incorporate somthing like this. If track days were available with this Buddy Scheme (and were no more expensive than ordinary ones) I'm sure many Newbies would gladly sign up for them to gain the necessary "solo" time to improve to an appropriate standard to enable safer races. Also the signatures on a Novices' licence are somewhat similar to gaining "air time" as they are being assessed throughout their first races to make sure of their competence and cannot remove the warning of their lack of experience until they have proved their competency.
Thank you for kind invite to ask for info. I look forward to the new season and getting the help hubby needs to improve so he doesn't cause the problems everyone is discussing.
Elaine
viparacing - 15/1/08 at 11:23 AMAn entry level formula should be encouraging novices not putting extra hurdles in their way.
At my first ever race (Mallory 2006 in the snow) I was worried about what I should do if I saw the front runners looming in my mirrors. I've found Locost a very friendly formula from the start and asked a few people about it (that and about a million other questions! - all of which people were really helpful with.)
The advice I got was to stick to the racing line. If your being lapped its fair to say there is a big difference between your speed and that of the front runners and if you stay on line your driving is predictable and they can easily get past. With the front runners usually in a pack it would be dangerous to swerve off line as you'd likely still end up in front of someone.
This made my first race a lot more comfortable. I can't remember if i was lapped (probably) but I know staying on the drying line was always going to be safer than a novice diving out of the way on to a snowy bit. It also meant I knew what was expected of me.
If this is the general consensus (those being lapped stay on racing line) could it be included in the first time drivers briefings?
Some of the accidents where back makers have swerved to me sound like some one who was desperate to get out of the way and not cause trouble but with 4/5 cars hurtling up behind them got it wrong.
Vicky
locost #71
simes43 - 15/1/08 at 03:12 PMHi Vicky
I will be flamed for this, but I think many issues are caused by the "staying on the racing line when cars are passing" advice.
I would advocate instead that everyone drives in one manner up and down the field.
The most common, correct and by far the safest way of being passed during practice and on being lapped in a race is to indicate to the car behind, by using either indicators or pointing, in the direction that you wish them to pass you.
As a good bit of racing etiquette , drivers should actually move off line to ease the passing process, not block the car in front. This removes the constant issues of people trying to outbrake others during practice.
The above process creates a level of communication and reduces the level of assumptions that are going on in both cars.
Before the PC squad jumps here, there are far more benefits to be learnt from following a car thats faster than getting in its way.
Rob Palin - 15/1/08 at 06:06 PMNot flaming, but i would definitely disagree with you there, even though i do use the method you recommend myself. Bear with me a minute and i'll explain the apparent hypocrisy.
Aside from all the off-track issues we're discussing in the other thread, one of the steepest learning curves for me when i first started was learning how to drive 'off-line'. It was difficult enough to learn the proper racing lines / braking points etc, but trying to do this while 30-odd other people were squabbling over the same piece of tarmac as me was much harder.
With experience it's easier to judge an off-line braking point or to adjust to a different line which causes less disruption to a passing car (at least whilst maintaining any sort of momentum), but this is quite difficult when you're just starting out. I would therefore think the advice to "carry on doing what you're doing and let the faster car sort itself out" is appropriate for novices, as they've often got enough on their plate as it is.
It is better to get some sort of indication that they've seen you coming, sure, but in the abscence of that at least you know with reasonable confidence what they're going to do: when they'll brake, what trajectory they'll take through a corner and thus you can position yourself accordingly.
There, not that hypocritical, really. :s
<edit> There was a thread on this on Ten Tenths a while back. All about the Blue Book's rules on blue flags and whether it was strictly correct that a backmarker *has* to deviate from their line/speed to give way to a faster car. According to the literal wording of the rule, actual racing itself is illegal!
[Edited on 15/1/08 by Rob Palin]
[Edited on 15/1/08 by Rob Palin]
andrews_45 - 15/1/08 at 07:50 PMThe way I read it, I am a novice, if I am in a position where I am about to be lapped I will move over and allow the faster cars past as soon as it is safe to do so. What would the front runners prefer us to do? Perhaps a raise of our arm to say we've seen em and will move over to let em pass?
[Edited on 15/1/08 by andrews_45]
simes43 - 15/1/08 at 08:17 PMHi Rob,
I understand your point about going off line can sometimes be tricky, it is.
However, although, but, actually if the driver in front is alert and watching what is going on behind them then they should be able to judge their speed (up and down)and get passed on the straight.
If the whole grid ( a high proportion already do) and every other race series in the country use the recognised practice then the safest option is for drivers to follow it from the beginning and not some well intended "advice".
Si
Rob Palin - 15/1/08 at 09:46 PMI agree that the safest place for it all to take place is on the straights - which is why track day organisers enforce a rule to that effect to cater for those who may have even less track experience than a novice racer.
If they can blend out of the throttle *a little* on the straight then fine, but i still wouldn't expect them to move out of the way. Misunderstandings happen too easily that way, and it is most probably experience of this which has led to the advice being given to novices in the first place. If they start moving or indicating then it would easily get messy when a pack of squabbling lead cars is trying to get past. If they stay on line but just feather the throttle slightly then everyone knows exactly where they will be.
This is all well and good, but there will definitely be times during races when lapping takes place through corners out of competitive necessity, and the other stuff becomes relevent again. If they stay on line then you know where they'll be. If they deviate from that then there's no way to know for sure what level of compromise they're going to make to their line in order to let you through.
simes43 - 15/1/08 at 10:38 PMIn reality, experienced drivers will on most occasions judge how to get round a lapped or slower qualifying car and leave a bit of extra space during a passing move.
Thats how it usually works.
However, it is not the job of the faster car to find a way round, bah humbug, but its not. Ignoring what is going on around you and not knowing what your responsibilities are, is just wrong and dangerous.
There is a very clear statement in the Blue Book about what a slower car should do. The "advice" does not appear and therefore should not be listened to, however well meaning.
By advocating the "advice" over the correct course of action, an actual collision course has been created here by the introduction of contradictory advice.
Rob Palin - 16/1/08 at 07:13 AMThat's where we disagree then. The wording in the Blue Book is not clear, which was what prompted the thread on Ten Tenths that i mentioned earlier. It says a driver should "give way" to a car which is "temporarily or consistently faster". It does not say in any way how a driver should go about actually 'giving way'.
Elsewhere in the Blue Book it says that it is the responsibility of an overtaking driver to complete the manoeuver safely.
The consensus in that thread (mainly marshalls & drivers contributing) was that the slower driver shouldn't do anything specifically to impede the progress of the faster driver, but that's about it.
The way the Blue Book rule is written effectively outlaws competitive racing, as well as not being clear on the actual action to be taken for lapped cars etc.
simes43 - 16/1/08 at 11:02 AMReading between the lines a bit, the outcome of all of this is that both drivers must share responsibility and not leave it up to the other.
The signalling part is a good habit to learn and will help drivers as they progress up the grid and beyond. How else do you get a tow down the Rivett!
