Need a bit of help/advice if anyone can assist.

I'm in the process of building a Locost with a view to (eventually!) competing in the 750mc series. Whilst that may be some way off, I am looking to get a roll cage fitted to my chassis which will comply with the Championship regs. Like everyone I suppose, I am working on a very tight budget, so am looking to identify who might be able to supply and fit a roll cage without breaking the bank!

Any ideas please?

i have a Caged Cage on my Westfield, but alot of the guys over here have custom cages built from T45 seamless tubing.. they don't have any problems with scrutinering.. so i would presume its just a matter of getting a fabricator to make you up one?

this is the company i got mine from, but at £900 + postage they are expensive enough.

http://www.therollcagepeople.com/

Hi

for the Locost championship there are only two suppliers of cage that are legal and compliant for use.

Aries motorsport who supply a 1 3/4 Dia item that weighs 34Kg and procomp who supply a 1 1/2" that weighs 22Kg.
cost for the Procomp starts at £850 fully fitted Inc the extra chassis members that are recommended in the regulations and side protection.

Beware some others Inc the so called Caged items which are not actually a caged item just a copy being sold under false pretences. And if you want to see how well they construct them take a look in my photo archive under TMC. !!!

Cheers Matt

Is the price high just because there are only 2 company's aloud to make them ?

are they the only two allowed ,or can you build your own from the correct spec material ,,,if you can build chassis,!!!

[Edited on 2/2/11 by andrew]

Thanks for that Matt.

I was aware that some of the cages advertised would not be suitable/allowed under the regulations. I am not far away from Aries so I will give them a call.

Thanks again for your help.

have looked into other classes of racing and it seems to be if you are limited who to get the cage off they seem to be double the price,,,

Not withstanding Matts misleading comments, anyone can make a compliant rollcage, providing its designed and constructed within the specifications set out in the MSA Bluebook. (competitors safety section). Just be sure who ever does make it for you is going to do a good job!

would anyone know i this applies to the mazda mx5 racing series,,

Basically the only people who do one 'off the shelf' are Aries for about £600 (I have one, very nice!) and Procomp (have seen one, also very nice!) for £850.

Anyone can make one provided it fits the regulations laid out in the blue book (like the Aries one) or it if FIA homologated (like the Procomp one).

The advantage of buying an FIA homologated cage is that you can use thinner tubes in better locations to make a better and lighter design.

I recon you would pay around the £6-800 mark for a custom one so really you may as well go Aries or splash out for the light weight Procomp one.

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Originally posted by phelpsa
Basically the only people who do one 'off the shelf' are Aries for about £600 (I have one, very nice!) and Procomp (have seen one, also very nice!) for £850.

Anyone can make one provided it fits the regulations laid out in the blue book (like the Aries one) or it if FIA homologated (like the Procomp one).

The advantage of buying an FIA homologated cage is that you can use thinner tubes in better locations to make a better and lighter design.

I recon you would pay around the £6-800 mark for a custom one so really you may as well go Aries or splash out for the light weight Procomp one.

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Originally posted by loggyboy
Not withstanding Matts misleading comments, anyone can make a compliant rollcage, providing its designed and constructed within the specifications set out in the MSA Bluebook. (competitors safety section). Just be sure who ever does make it for you is going to do a good job!

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Originally posted by andrew
would anyone know i this applies to the mazda mx5 racing series,,

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Originally posted by snakebelly
err is that fair? Matt only said that for the locost championiship the only 2 suppliers are himself and airies, series regs can limit things like cage supply to whoever they like as long as the design and fab is to bluebook. ie the Tiger Series limits legal cage supply to ...Tiger, although they are manufactured by caged.

just my ten peneth

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Hi

I was under the impression that the OP was looking for a cage supllier not to make one. It is quite obvious that anyone can make a cage to MSA/FIA spec if they follow the guide lines laid out in the blue book as that's why those guidelines are there.

Give Steve at Aries a ring as heel sort one out and it is a bolt on option so relativley easy as a retrofit item.

Cheers Matt

Hope I haven't opened a can of worms with this question!!!!

Thanks for all the replies, I'm afraid making one myself is well out of my range of expertise, I will speak to Aries and see where we go from there. Just to add another one into the mix, I live very close to MK, so may well check with them too.

Thanks again for all your help

I'm guessing you've not seen the recent thread about the MK roll-cage... either that, or you're on the wind-up!

do you have a link to the mk roll cage thread? I have tried searching..

here
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/forum/2/viewthread.php?tid=127272&page=2

and here

http://locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=148715

Hi, hadn't seen the thread about MK, but have now.....Thanks for that.....might give hat one a miss!!

Dont give it a miss, just expain to them the cage needs to be compliant! They should be well aware of any issue and its a very easy fix.
The only reason the MK didnt/doesnt work is the double kink, and thats because they wanted to bring the cage down into the foot well, rather than outside the side panels.

Have emailed 750mc regarding this issue, and they tell me that as far as they are aware only one car has been rejected due to the roll cage, and that was because it wasn't fitted correctly. I am waiting for a response from a 'Formula Official' so will see what that one throws up.

Is anyone aware of any other competitors who use the MK roll cage?

Most competing MKs I would expect?

Just my 2p worth but my book cage is currently being ripped out of my race locost and Matt is installing a procomp one.

I wouldnt think twice about going to Matt. You will get first class service and a quality product.

Just a quick note to say that the roll cage pictured in Matt's (Procomp) photo gallery doesn't actually appear to be one we have welded, so I would appreciate the reference to our name to be removed please.

It's possible we may have supplied the kit to build the cage, as we had a bit of a clear out and didnt need a couple that were in the workshop, but it was definitely not fitted to a car by us.
Just looking at the position of the bolts through to the chassis confirms that to me, as we have always placed them in the four corners of the plate, and used nyloc nuts to secure them!

I'd better add as well, just for clarity, that if it is one we supplied in kit form, it would be one that had come from Caged originally and would therefore have been perfectly legal for use.
AFAIK nobody has attempted to replicate the Caged design, much less pass an imitation off as a genuine item.

Matt
TMC Motorsport



[Edited on 7/2/11 by TMC]

Hi

Err Matt it was the car that you personaly built yourself and sold to the raining Metro champion end of last year. !!!!

Cheers Matt

In which case I stand corrected.

They are all genuine Caged items though, including that one, which I'm pleased to say does not represent the quality of work we are able to produce since TMC became a fully fledged, operating company in 2009.

And if it is that car, it was sold a few years ago (2006-ish I think...) just to further separate that one example from any commercial interest we may have in fitting cages to Locosts!

Matt

[Edited on 7/2/11 by TMC]

Hi

Matt you have a very short memory. The car was advertised last year and sold. And as for the CAGED kits how come Brian Mitcham openly stated on the Yahoo forum he was supplying the roll cages in kit form as he was havingf them made by his freind down the road from him and supplying yourselves of witch i have a copy of the message. And how come Caged deny any knowledge of supplying the cage in kit form because they know that they/ any company are not allowed to supply an FIA ROPS cage in kit form for home fitment. Which is exactly as it says on the certificate that goes with the ID number on the cages that you supply And it also clearley stated that the only company allowed to fitt that cage with that ID number is caged. Have you not even looked at the certificate.
And i do belive that the MSA via the 750Mc told both you and Brian to stop what you where doing imediatly.

Cheers Matt

I have no interest in opening this debate again, it's been done to death many times before.

If that's the car that Lee Mcnamara bought, it left us after Tony Childe-Freeman raced it in 2006/7. The one advertised last year was a totally different car and didnt sell, so we used it for the majority of 2010. It has now been sold, but definitely not to a Metro champion!

Matt

umm I love it when people find such artistic uses for bird s##t, spot the difference:


Heres the reason why ROPS was introduced. Cage manufacturers illegaly selling so called FIA certificated ROPS to people who can't weld and letting them fit them. !!!

just to add my personal view of someone who has a Brian Mitchum-Caged roll cage fitted to my race car.

To start, I have a great deal of time for TMC & Procomp, who over the past 6 years at various meetings have helped me when in dire need.

So please correct me if I'm wrong on any point

1, any person can design/fabricate/fit a cage if it complies to 750 & MSA regs

2, Caged design complies to regs

3, If Caged fabs & fits cage it can carry the MSA sticker

4, If you buy the Caged design, weld and fit it yourself, it will comply but cannot carry the MSA sticker

So my Caged unit is ok, if I have complete confidence in the person who welded and fitted it. ( it was done by a professional welder via Steve Hills), but should not carry the MSA sticker.

5, I would have had the procomp one but SWMBO had cut my budget to the bone that year

I did have a ST/Aries original, but it was for a 7ft driver, very ridged but heavy

Correct as far as I am aware according to the Blue Book.

To add,

6. Any cage not designed specifically to the drawings in the Blue Book must be manufactured and fitted by a ROPS certificated company. You will get a certificate detailing the cage id number and company who made it/fitted it. This info will also be on a plate on the cage.

All covered in the 2011 Blue Book sections K1-K1.8 (p152-158). Specifically regarding exceptions to these requirements is Section K1.5 on P156:

The only exceptions to the foregoing requirements for saloon, single seater and sports cars are as follows:

1.5.1. Safety Cage manufacturers may make application to the MSA for a Roll Over Protection System (ROPS) Certificate to be issued.

Note: ROPS manufacturers wishing to make application for such a certificate should contact the MSA Technical Department in order to obtain details of the requirements to be met and the fees payable. Subject to these requirements being met a ROPS Certificate will be raised and issued. Duly authorised copies of this certificate containing a drawing, photographs, a copy of the manufacturers declaration the the ROPS meets the required regulations and a copy of the stress engineers declaration that the design is capable of withstanding the loadings specified in the regulations must be available to event scrutineers.

1.5.2. Each ROPS manufactured after 1.1.97 for which the MSA or the FIA has issued a ROPS (Rollcage) Certificate must bear an identification plate which details the manufacturer and the manufacturers part number allocated to the cage. Details of this identity plate are to be included on the ROPS (Rollcage) Certificate.

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Originally posted by ernie
just to add my personal view of someone who has a Brian Mitchum-Caged roll cage fitted to my race car.

To start, I have a great deal of time for TMC & Procomp, who over the past 6 years at various meetings have helped me when in dire need.

So please correct me if I'm wrong on any point

1, any person can design/fabricate/fit a cage if it complies to 750 & MSA regs

2, Caged design complies to regs

3, If Caged fabs & fits cage it can carry the MSA sticker

4, If you buy the Caged design, weld and fit it yourself, it will comply but cannot carry the MSA sticker

So my Caged unit is ok, if I have complete confidence in the person who welded and fitted it. ( it was done by a professional welder via Steve Hills), but should not carry the MSA sticker.

5, I would have had the procomp one but SWMBO had cut my budget to the bone that year

I did have a ST/Aries original, but it was for a 7ft driver, very ridged but heavy

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Sort of correct. I dont know the caged design, but if its is FIA/ROPs certified then its likely that it wont comply with blue bookd regs, because if it does comply, then it would have been pointless paying to get it certified.

If the caged design is certified, and is therefore unlikely Blue book compliant, then only caged can supply and install it.

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Originally posted by TMC

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Sort of correct. I dont know the caged design, but if its is FIA/ROPs certified then its likely that it wont comply with blue bookd regs, because if it does comply, then it would have been pointless paying to get it certified.

If the caged design is certified, and is therefore unlikely Blue book compliant, then only caged can supply and install it.

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Almost. If it is certified to be supplied as a kit, as the Caged design is, it can be installed by an individual.
It is then down to scrutineers to act on behalf of the FIA/MSA and advise if the installation is unsuitable or unsafe.

This applies to the vast majority of cages sold by the likes of Demon Tweeks who supply certified kits.

That's as I understand it anyway, happy to be educated otherwise.

There is a certain irony to discussing who can weld and install cages onto chassis that were always intended to be built by an amateur welder in a shed... But I think that's just my sense of humour!

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Hi

Is it still possible [not desirable] to build a Locost that has only a rear cage that can meet the MSA Blue Book technical safety section regs on roll over protection, for
a) racing
&
b) speed events (sprints and hillclimbs)

Note I am asking about Blue Book regs for safety and type of event - I haven't mentioned additional local formula or local class regs. Yes, I know I need to re-read the Blue Book regs, but I am confused whether the change that has happened in paddocks for full cages is partly due to competitors quite sensibly wanting to go beyond the regs (for speed events?) for extra safety with a chassis stiffening bonus, or have the regs made a full cage mandatory these days in race events (and speed too)?


My reason for asking is that it used to be possible to race with only a rear cage (that met the Blue Book drawings, with correct material spec, diagonals, mounting points, helmet clearance etc) - for example see pics at: http://www.locost-racing.com/index.html

Have the MSA Blue Book regs for racing now made it only possible to race an open two-seater sports car with a front and rear cage, and for Seven-esque cars, a side intrusion (arm protection) bar too? What about for speed events in road car classes (as well as ModProd and Sports Libre)?


I want to do a very occassional speed event in a road Locost, that doesn't look like a race tin top that has had the lid peeled off, and that I can physically get into. Also I still want something that looks like a Seven of old, that doesn't have the very agressive Terminator 3 metalwork that screams very loudly 'racing car' on the road. Yeah I know, safety should be before beauty, and that a Locaterfield isn't exactly inconspicuous anyway!

I realise that a lot of rear only cages don't properly clear the helmet, both vertically and taking a line from scuttle top to rollbar top, so won't be in line with MSA regs and probably never were even when they were racing/sprinting/hillclimbing!

I know, full cage it best. But can you still have an MSA compliant rear roll over bar only, probably quite a tall one?

Cheers
Mike

Hi Mike

For speed events in road going you're fine with just the rear roll bar, theoretically even that's only recommended, but I wouldn't even contemplate it without one.
I would go for a diagonally braced rear hoop with twin back stays as my minimum.

There's a few cars in road going with full cages (without the side impact bars normally) but it's not a requirement of the rules, just competitor choice.

For the 750mc club locost rules state you must have a full cage - it changed a couple of years after the championship started.

Basically - they've specified it must be front and rear hoop, these must either comply with the blue book or be certified in some way.

I have a question about how the cage is attched to the chassis.

The blue book states the area of the plate it is a attached to either by welding or bolting that is fine as I am welding mine in position.

But can I mount it like this (pic below) where a small section of tube welded to a plate then the end of the cage welded to that... if that makes sense!!

Would that kind of thing pass scrutineering or MSA standards? Anyone that can help soon would be great so I can complete the welding of my cage ASAP...... I want to get chassis sent away for powder coating