Spottty
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| posted on 2/1/04 at 01:39 AM |
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Design problems
Ok, so I want to design my own car (thanks to people here, I now have the building bug). I know, so does everyone else but I have a problem.
I cant draw anything all that well. My artistic abilities are streched at drawing a stickman.
Anyone else have that problem? Did you just design as you go? I have what I want the car to look like in my head but getting it down on paper is a
nightmare! I guess I could use autocad but everytime I try that I cant seem to make anything work, maybe I should go to school for a year to learn how
to use it?
I would love some advice from you guys. There is really no one around here to talk to about this.
Best thing to do for a build....
Ditch the wife! 
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Alan B
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| posted on 2/1/04 at 02:29 AM |
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Spotty, there are really 2 aspects of design to consider....
Engineering...
Making it all fit and work, stay together and be safe...
Styling...
This is the artistic part...how it looks from an aesthetics viewpoint.
Of course there is some overlap, but they can be treated as two distinct discplines.
Unfortunately, being an expert autocad user doesn't make you an engineer or stylist....
Is your engineering knowledge good?
If so a good car styling book would be useful (for me too.. )
If you are weak in both main areas then really I'd concentrate on getting the engineering up to scratch.
To be honest learning autocad won't help at this stage....IMO
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Rorty
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| posted on 2/1/04 at 02:47 AM |
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I'm with AB. Learn the technical stuff first, and then you can use a drawing program to impliment your sound designs.
You probably don't want to hear this, but you'd really be better off building a book Locost or a kit from one of the suppliers mentioned
here frequently. Then you would have gleaned a little about building a vehicle, and what works and what doesn't.
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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Hellfire
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| posted on 2/1/04 at 03:07 AM |
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We would repeat the sentiments...
I thought I knew a bit about cars and engineering - being an engineer. However, there is a whole lot more to consider when building even a basic kit.
We have already discussed our next project, undecided what it will be but - we're thinking ahead!
It's all well and good cutting corners, as long as the result is safe and secure... plus with regulations going the way they are here in the UK,
IMHO home built Kit Cars have a limited shelf life now more than ever. unless you're buying turnkey packages!
But until then - - - ENJOY - - -
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Spottty
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| posted on 2/1/04 at 04:16 AM |
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Well, I was gonna build a locost first just so I know I can build a car. But I know some people took 2 years of design/research work till they started
building so I was gonna try and get a headstart 
I do like engineering and at one point thought about doing it as a career (decicded I wanted to be more in the custom car kinda stuff). Math was my
favorite subject in school too.
I should have some experience by the time I start the build. I have to make my own suspension for my Volvo 544. I gonna make it dual A arms up front
(ditch the kingpin stuff) and probly a 3 or 4 link system in the back.
I was just wondering how everyone comes up with these cool designs. Is everyone here a artist?
Thanks for your tips guys!
Best thing to do for a build....
Ditch the wife!
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MikeR
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| posted on 2/1/04 at 09:07 AM |
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Yeah we're all artists - but thats a different story.
I'd reconmend getting some reading material - Alan Staniforth is an easy read and will get you thinking in the right direction.
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suparuss
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| posted on 2/1/04 at 10:20 AM |
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dont let anyone put you off, i started exacty where you are now, 2 years ago (or maybe 3, cant remember exacty) i bought rons book just out of
interest, id always been interested in engineering and like you wanted a career but the long training put me off. when i bought that first book i knew
jack all about cars, now i have quite a comprehensive library of car design books and have gone from not being sure i can change the oil in me pug
diesel to wanting to build a 7 replica to being confident enough to design my own mid bike engined car, which i now have a patent application for my
revolutionary reverse gear box, which i later fond that radical motor sport were also developing! although its competition i shows im the right track.
anyway, all you need to do is sit down and put your mind to it, but take your time to do right.
also, autocad has been a huge help, especially 3d cad, for designing my space frame adn highlighting design problems, vie just started wire meshing my
body work onto the frame and i need to compromise between a couple of tubes that increase strengh, or having flowing lines in the bodywork, its all
fun, so just do it!!
Russ.
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Alan B
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| posted on 2/1/04 at 01:55 PM |
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Russ, I hope you weren't implying that anyone kere was trying to put him off....I'm certain that is NOT the case at all.
I was trying to send Spotty off on the right track...basics first...
There really aren't many shortcuts....designing and building your own car from scratch is long winded and labourious...but, ultimately worth
it..
I have and use Autocad (Mechanical Desktop) every day in my job...it IS very useful, but you really need good basic skills first...after all it is
just a tool...
Enthusiasm is essential, I think we have in bucketfuls on here....but, channelling it in right direction is important too...
I agree with the others too about building a simple kit first, or even helping build one...you will learn a lot...
My cautious advice is intended to produce a finished car, rather than an unfished project....but it's not easy and wouldn't be worth it if
it was....
End of sermon..
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suparuss
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| posted on 2/1/04 at 03:56 PM |
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nah, i didnt think that. i just meant there are generally a lot of people who would put off anyone who is planning something like that (ie people who
dont understand what it is all about)
You are right of course, about taking it a step at a time.
Russ.
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MikeR
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| posted on 2/1/04 at 04:43 PM |
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One thing I've been doing is playing around with little wooden food sticks (can't think how to spell the word that meants long thin bit of
wood used to hold meat on a bbq!) to make space frames.
It really brings it home to the principles of a space frame when you can hold and twist one. Especially when you see the model deform, glue in another
peice of wood (using hot glue) and see the twist / deformation move elsewhere.
One word of warning, its quite adictive sat infront of the TV and you end up making quite a mess with lots of little wooden offcuts everywhere.
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suparuss
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| posted on 2/1/04 at 09:52 PM |
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lol, its funny you should mention that, i work in a woodworking shop and cut a load of lengths of 3mm x3mm sticks from a piece of 3x2pse on the big
circular saw with a 4mm wide blade so i wasted more than i used
chassis design is pretty easy, since we are all working with principals that are 40 years old or more there is plenty of literature and experience
knocking about, just keep in mind that while a triangle is the stongest 2 dimensional shape, a tetrahedron is teh strongest 3 dimensional shape so if
you can incorporate interconnecting tetrahedrons into you design you should have a fairly strong chassis, there are other things to concider obviously
but that is one of the important bits.
Russ.
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MikeR
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| posted on 3/1/04 at 12:46 PM |
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Interesting, apart from the fact I can't remember what a tetra thingy looks like, in staniforths book he says a pyramid is strongest.....
Is a tetra thingy the same as a pyrimid or have i just started an interesting debate?
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Alan B
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| posted on 3/1/04 at 02:02 PM |
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A pure tetrahedron is a 4 sided shape made of equilateral triangles....yes it is like a pyramid, except for having a triangular base rather than the
usual square one...
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TheGecko
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| posted on 5/1/04 at 07:12 AM |
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Getting back to Spotty's original question and picking up from Alan's answer;
I think that the engineering and styling can be used to drive each other somewhat. For instance, the physical size and shape of the major components
(engine. gearbox, wheels, seats etc) constrains the shape of the body. That constraint can be used to your advantage because it gives you a
'hook' to hang some of your styling decisions on.
For instance, consider my car, a mid-engined clubman style (ignore the old avatar image that shows it with a full body. I'm down to cycle guards
and minimalism now as shown attached). I knew the size of the engine/transaxle package which also dictated the position of the rear wheels and
suspension as I want to use as many donor parts as possible. Making some reasobable (?!?) guesses at clearances, I set the cockpit position and hence
the front wheels and suspension. Given that I'm going for a slightly hard-edged, wedgy, clubman look, I could then 'clothe' the main
components with some body lines (most of which are straight or close to it). I drew up profile, plan and end views in quick sketch form and then
built a relatively simple model to check proportions.
The car in my avatar image was more complicated (the main reason that the design was side-lined) but along similar lines. For the model I had a
couple of major shapes in my head; the principal body cross-section and the front wheel arches. I cut cross-sections (transverse & longitudinal)
of the major features and joined them together, then slathered the whole thing with plaster and carved it to shape with the templates for guidance.
It tedious and very messy but, for me at least, it lets me generate the shape that's in my head in a way that I can't achieve on paper.
Just grab a pencil and paper and start sketching. Then cut a few cross-sections from heavy card or light timber (I use 3mm (1/8" MDF) and build
a physical model.
Good luck,
Dominic
Brisbane, Australia
 
Part finished Gecko 2 model
[Edited on 5/1/2004 by TheGecko]
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sgraber
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| posted on 5/1/04 at 02:19 PM |
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I just wanted to pop my head into this thread. Everyone seems to be really on target with their comments. Dominic, I am really liking your Clubman
look. Much "lighter" looking.
To let you in on my favorite solver for frame design: 1/8"x1/8" balsa strips and Elmers wood glue. Turns out that the lightweight balsa
has a tensile strength similar to steel (I read that somewhere) so when you design little 1/8"=12" scale spaceframe models, you can then
test them for stiffnes by twisting them all ways, adding and removing pieces very easily. I went through 5 designs this way before deciding on a final
one. Later, when I needed more information about adding stiffness in the engine bay, I went back to the balsa models and found a good soultion again.
Graber
Steve Graber
http://www.grabercars.com/
"Quickness through lightness"
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TheGecko
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| posted on 6/1/04 at 01:27 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by sgraberDominic, I am really liking your Clubman look. Much "lighter" looking.
Thanks Steve. If
you like that then you'll really like the latest version which is slimmer again around the tail section. This has been achieved in much
the same way as the Meerkat, by having a seperate engine cover and lowering the 'deck' sides around it to reduce the visual bulk.
Probably won't get built as a model since I'm cutting and welding steel for the real thing now (finally!!). If I remember tonight when I
get home, I'll scan the sketch and post it here for comparison.
Dominic
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Spottty
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| posted on 6/1/04 at 03:11 AM |
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Wow guys, thanks for all the tips! I am sur the wife will lov my busting out the glue and balsa in the livingroom
I mostly have a design in my head its just getting it down on paper. Ohh well I have years to do this (I'm only 25) and I will need to build a
locost first just to hone some skills and figure out a suspension setup for my 544 (should look like the avatar when done).
Hopfully I should start the middy in about 2-3 years, by then the powertrain I want to use might come down in price!
Thanks again everyone!
Best thing to do for a build....
Ditch the wife!
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