I've been thinking about transaxle's again and something I saw on ebay a while ago came back to me.

It seems a mid engined car was built that used a ford 5 speed box with a shortened tailshaft (manufacturer began with a M, Mallory??).

Got an idea that you could take a 5 speed bellhousing and box, chop off the tailshaft and mount a flange that couples directly to a diff.

Now the way i see it this has the following problems,
* need to make an oil seal in the box
* need to chop & attach a flange
* need to couple the diff to the box
* need to make the coupling able to hand small changes in alignment as they probably won't be perfectly aligned.

Does this seem possible or am I dreaming up another wild idea?

the coupling of the diff and box shouldnt causing any alignment problems. Just mount the diff on flexi mounts instead of solid (slight sacrifice there) but that way the diff will move with the box so it should stay aligned.

Intriguing idea but I've no idea if its feasible otherwise!

Possible...

From what you say I think this would result in the gearbox between the dif and engine as opposed to the usual transaxle arrangement of putting the gears behind the diff. This would add 10 to 12 inches to the wheel base. Can't see why it shouldn't work though.

Alternatively-

Audi transaxles are fairly cheap and can be connected to a wide range of 4, 5 and V6 engines from the VW/Audi/SEAT/Skoda group. Bigger engines will fit from this group and US V8s have been fitted with the usual adaptor plates and mods but it's rumored that the standard gearbox doesn't like more than 250-300bhp in 2 wheel drive.

Why make it more complicated?

Seems perfectly doable......with some machining.

Only downside is it will be a bit long from engine to axle centreline compared to say a volkie or hewland.......but, cheap spares, possible LSD etc.....worth looking at for sure.

People keep mentioning the audi transaxle, but what car does it come from? I thought all recent audi's have been either front wheel drive or 4 wheel drive with the engine at the front.

The only audi i knew with a transaxle was from about 1980ish.

Another advantage of this idea is that not only do you get cheep spares, but any ratio's in a type 9 will fit, straight cut, dog engagement, sequential etc etc. (not that I can afford that mind you)

Yes Mike they mean a FWD transaxle...they run north/south with the engine at the front...therefore an easy mid transplant.....

when i was asking about transaxles a while ago someone was kind enough to post a BIG list of FWD longitudinal cars with transaxles. Included saab 900, audi 80/90/100/4000/5000 plus many more...

a search for transaxle shouldn't provide too many results so it should be quite easy to find.

the audi 5000, 5000t and porsche 924, 944 all used the same transaxle

in the case of the porsche the tranny was mounted at the back driving the rear wheels. on the audi it is bolted directly to the engine and drives the front wheels.

on the audi this sets the engine quite far forward, so the mount the radiator beside the engine rather than in front of it.

there a re a number of audi boxes that would work nicely for longitudaly mounted mid engine application, but the 5000 and 5000t boxes (same) are supposed to be able to take a lot of power

many lambo replicas use them bolted to v8's (I've even seen them bolted to a bmw v12)

I've been researching a replacement engine and transaxle for a Lotus Europa and I've found some interesting information about transaxles. The mid-80's Audi Coupe used a transaxle with a longitudinal 5 cylinder engine. Here's some links that people may or may not find interesting:

http://www.kitcentral.com/cgi-bin/showprogress.cgi?builderid=51&zoom=1051&startat=0
http://www.msu.edu/user/dupreer1/flyinghead/index.html
http://elektro.cmhnet.org/%7eaudi/01E/
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2453654958
http://www.msu.edu/user/dupreer1/flyinghead/index.html

FWIW, the wrecking yards sell the transmission anywhere in the range of $100-$500.

-Steve

Hate to reply to my own msg because it shows how scatterbrained I am, but I also looked into VW transaxles and found this site:

http://www.kennedyeng.com/vw_por.htm

You'll notice that they have adaptors for all kinds of engines front Mazda rotary to Toyota 4AGE (which I what I was looking for, for my 20V silvertop).

-Steve

MikeR,

The idea has some merit, as Alan said it would be fairly long. Some years ago, I remember a company advertising in 'Kit Car' magazine (US not UK) witha 'pseudo-transaxle' product. What they did was take a gearbox/diff combo, exactly as you describe. On to each side of the diff, where the inner CV joint would normally go, there was a sprocket (possibly a double row one). From there, on each side, a chain (duplex?) ran forward to a matching (or not, if you wanted to change ratios) sprocket, mounted somewhere in the vicinity of the bellhousing. The idea was that you could use a (any?) common gearbox to suit your purposes (and engine) and 'convert' it into a transaxle. From memory there was a fabricated subframe that kept everything aligned but the idea of pumping serious horsepower through even duplex chains gave me the willies. Yes, I know the engine-gearbox link on an 8.2 litre FWD Eldorado is by duplex chain. It still gives me the willies

Anyway, more grist for the mill perhaps.

Dominic

I've been looking at the Audi haynes manuals today (ooops, now yesterday) and it does seem the easiest way to go.

Shame I've now rethought the plans and am examining the concept of a single seat mid engined car with the engine at the side of the driver. Bike engines would just seem to fit so perfectly and balance my 80 kg's nicely as well.

Nice idea. If anyone remembers the Rover P6BS prototype, it used the Lamborghini type arrangement (I think) with the Rover/Buick 3.5/215 engine, offset to the side. The car was a two plus one, with part of the rear seat being given up to package the engine.

Alec was a genius, but alas, people fear the unconventional. Rover canned a car which could have comprehensively blown the contemporary Porsche 911 into the weeds. *sigh*

Mark.

Steve

Intersesting ebay link you put up,rebuilt transaxle $299 buy it now.The way things are going it could be £150 real money,might look at shipping costs

Must admit after a quick look there are plenty of audi 80/100's going pretty cheap over here,but is there a perfect audi box ? i mean are they all the same through the range apart from 4x4.

hmmm, i wonder what the ratio's are for the audi boxes ....... i sense a google moment coming on

Well it seems most are in the 3.5 to 3.7 range for first gear. The rest are spread out like most production cars. The current 1.8T 5speed TT has a 3.3 ratio first gear - but i suspect thats not a transaxle as its really a golf.

i would previously have bet my left bollok that ALL TTs were 4wd, but recently many have said that there are some 2wd.

Surely its all S3 running gear, and arent those all 4wd?!

they are doing a cheap 2wd fwd version i understand. only a recent thing....


likewise i heard of a new v6 one to try and keep up with the porsches.

Ned.

Ned,

You're right about the V6 TT. TG tested it, and found that cos of the extra weight, it was no quicker. And it handled like a bag of poo.

Bear in mind this car was quite unstable at speed when it was first launched resulting in mechanical and aerodynamic changes under recall.

However, if (and it's a big if) I could ever persuade myself to use anything german in a car I was building, the tt could make quite a useful donor (engine/box/drivsehafts?/uprights?/steering/seats/instruments/roll hoops etc etc)

ATB

Simon

I'm rather fond of german cars

quote:

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Originally posted by violentblue
I'm rather fond of german cars

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Yes I can understand your love/hate relationship. when they run they rung niely, something breaks and you have to wait on the part then end up paying way more than you ought to.

My subaru is worse though, just for giggles I inquired toe dealership cost of changing my clutch (plan on doing it myself), and was rather shocked to be given a price of $1000

I think I'd rather do it myself

Totally off topic .....

enquire as to how much it costs to change the cam belt! I think its in the region of 600 quid!

Its not just cause you have to change two of the damned things, its the parts cost that really gets you. Oh, that and you've got to take the front of the car off to get to the bits you need. Local mechanic was doing one for a mate.

The only saving was his rates where 1/2 to 2/3 dealer price.

quote:

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Originally posted by violentblue
My subaru is worse though, just for giggles I inquired toe dealership cost of changing my clutch (plan on doing it myself), and was rather shocked to be given a price of $1000

I think I'd rather do it myself

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hello have some questions on audi transaxles.

does anyone know if there are any adapter plates available to fit other 4 cylinder engines other than vw/audi to the audi transaxle?

there seem to be plenty available for the old aircooled (beetle etc) transaxle, but cant find any for the audi?

or are they the same fitting?!!!

thanks,
Gareth

try MK engineering, I have seen pics of their new gt2 prototype which is audi transaxle, ford zetec powered i think.

Ned.

now call me thick if you want...
but if you are putting the engine and box behind the driver and it was originally intended in front(audi,ford,vx fwd cars) what does the gear linkage look like and how does it work, any pics or sites would be apprieciated..the rest I can grasp but this...well...

cheers

Mal

I am using an alfa romeo gearbox!!!
Same deal as with audi but the engine is a boxer layout. Used originally on alfsud but go for alfa 33 o I think some early 75s.

Audi still builds longitudinal on all models exept A2 and A3, these are volkswagen-based and therefore transverse.

I spent a bit of time looking into this and before i elected to build a v8...Lotus 7 i thought about a v8 midi. The same problem came up time and time again. The only affordable box that could handle the power of a tuned rover v8 was the Renault UN1 box as used in the renault 21 etc. A very rare unit unfortunatly and prone to distructing itself. Afrter that its the porch box and a porch price tag. Iwould be very intereting to know how much power these audi boxes can take, but seeing as though its difficult putting more than 200bhp on to the road with a front wheel drive car you may encounter similar self distruct probs with these boxes.

Audi 5000 transaxle bolted to a BMW V12

What a beautiful drivetrain. I've often thought if I ever did a large engine midi, this would be the choice. Rumor is the BMW V12 (from the 800-series car) engine can be obtained very cheaply (<$1000) because no one wants them... With an aftermarket ECU it should make getting the engine running relatively easy.

What does the above setup weigh? What does the Audi gearbox cost?

Is there a transverse transaxle capable of handling a V12?

Must make wonderful sounds... and that's important!

[Edited on 3/3/04 by kb58]

Its got that merlin look
or should i say ME109 look!

Beautiful

PS

I can see you have elected for rigid suspension, which is entirley wise with such a monster strapped to it, but where is the seat going?


[Edited on 3/3/04 by Julian B]

not my engine BTW, just snagged the pic from another site, but can't say I haven't thought of it.

I'm told that the audi box handles this power and more, there are labmo kits with V8's sourced from vettes using these boxes reliably,

I'm planning on using the audi box with a vw 2.0l 16v engine, I may just make sure there is enough romm in the engine bay to fit a v12 later

quote:

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Is there a transverse transaxle capable of handling a V12?

Must make wonderful sounds... and that's important!

[Edited on 3/3/04 by kb58]

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quote:

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Originally posted by kb58
Is there a transverse transaxle capable of handling a V12?

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Here I go "jacking the thread." I own the McLaren F1 book, a fabulous book... and I *never* use the word fabulous. Anyway, I couldn't find where McLaren explains why they placed the engine north-south. Does anyone know? They kept talking about how important it was to cram everything between the wheelbase, okay fair enough, but it seems like they could have saved lots of front-to-rear space by placing that same V12 transverse.

About me building a V12? Just dreaming for now.. and yes, I also heard of $500 BMW V12s. Seems a fantastic price for a nice piece of engineering, perhaps it's even price competitive with the proverbial Chevy v8, but only if the owner does all the work to it... As you said, having one of these in just about anything would certainly be different from the usual.

Heck I'm all over the place... A V12 would sound wonderful... but so would a BEC with it's "free" sequential gearbox (which for a car costs a fortune,) or an electric 3-wheel commuter vehicle... No, I need to finish the Mini and rest a few years... then we'll see.


[Edited on 5/3/04 by kb58]

Looks like the same kind of setup a guy is using in a Ultima. Audi gearboxes are pretty strong but a bit clunky. I had an Audi S4 with a twin turbo V6 that put out 415hp and about 495 ft/lbs of torque. I used it mainly on the track and didn't have any problems. If you're into drag racing, the second gear syncros have a habit of failing.

If I had to guess, I'd say they probably mounted the engine longitudinally for aero and balance issues. Afterall, venturi undertrays can take up a significant amount of room, and it probably balances better laterally, especially with only the driver aboard.

To minimize vibrational problems, the engine's should be mounted inline with a centre line through the car, north to south. That's why Audi persist with it. My mate ran simulations on British Aerospace's mainframe for many a costly hour on Rovers behalf, proving just that.

Transverse engines tend to get pushed over into a corner where they vibrate away merrily. V's are not as smooth as straights (they introduce unwanted lateral forces) but the current trend for V6's is so they fit in transverse engine FWD installations. Just as well there are multi-zillion quid mainframes around that can be used to design clever engine mounts to mask much of the engineering problems.

Weight distribution in the east-west plane is easier to manage too. The engine-plonked-in-corner-of-car scenario causes many a headache with weight distribution issues.

For the McLaren to mount the engine transversley with a decent east-west weight distribution, it should be mounted centrally so the gearbox then goes underneath. Oops! There goes your centre of gravity.

North to south, with an inline engine is the simplest way to avoid these problems. It's only the insistance of manufacturers that the human animal is incapable of driving a dynamic vehicle (i.e. RWD), the easily placated-with-tinsel prolatariate (marketing speak: 'Surprise and delight' ) and the insistance of the bean counters that everything be cheaper that pushed the transverse world onward. Oh yeah, it liberates some interior space (y'know, the bit under the heater that everyone finds soooo useful.)

Cheers,

Neil.

Blood pressure dropping, breathing slowing, mist clearing, clenched fists relaxing. Objectivity returning. It's all OK now.

Try...
GT40.com
Lambolounge

I scrolled through these sites a while ago and there is a lot of gearbox middy stuff on these sites. Try the Getrag website for details of where their boxes are used and how much torque they can take.

It's GT40s.com, just checked.
Rescued attachment getrag.jpg

quote:

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Originally posted by TheGecko

quote:

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Originally posted by kb58
Is there a transverse transaxle capable of handling a V12?

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Transverse? I'd imagine that some of the big American FWD's now have transverse supercharged V6's and V8's etc I would have thought that the big problem with a transverse V12 would be the length but if, as Matt says, the BMW is only 26" then that's probably manageable.

Are you planning a Miura replica Kurt ? That's the only transverse V12 I can think of. There's also the Cizeta V16 but that 'cheats' by taking the drive from the centre of the crank. The MacLaren F1 gearbox is transverse but with longitudinal engine. Not common at the wrecking yards though

Dominic

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quote:

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Originally posted by violentblue
not my engine BTW, just snagged the pic from another site, but can't say I haven't thought of it.

I'm told that the audi box handles this power and more, there are labmo kits with V8's sourced from vettes using these boxes reliably,

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This web site tells the story of the development of the F1 transxl.
http://www.weismann.net/supercar.html
There is a picture of Gordon Murray testing the layout. The setup looks positively low cost

Also look at this site:
http://www.just-the-one.net/index.html
under the FAQ section. It states that this car can be driven with one engine in 2nd gear while the other engine is in 6th!
Cheers
Karl

Just to flog a dead horse...
If you run a un1, and you dont fancy reworking the entire car to suit a different unit (and your breaking them lots) :-
Derek bell does a performance rework of them.
http://www.bell-performance.co.uk/gearbox%20upgrade.htm
I plan to go something like this route (but perhaps not the full monty done in their works but leaves me poor version) if I break lots of boxes (ive got 3 spare)..
Im just discovering the un1 bellhousing is bigger diameter than the espace bellhousing on my ex renault espace transaxle (5 speed, strengthened , larger diameter input shaft and cheap). And in fact wont fit over my rover v8 clutch / fit my adaptor kit.

just a thort but ther is a citron transaxle that was fited in earler esprits I am not sure what citren it was fited in.

also sarb 900 up till 1994 I think had a transaxle however the clutch is at the frount and the drive runs back under the engin maby giving problems

as for the BMW v12 engin ther is an ultima build sight out ther where the guy has put a lot of efort in to recreating an car with mac f1 figures (aparently the ultima was the mac f1 dev car) he has done some work on the engin to gett more from it s aparently the f1's engin was develped from the 800 block and bits

Blake

quote:

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Originally posted by ceebmoj
just a thort but ther is a citron transaxle that was fited in earler esprits I am not sure what citren it was fited in.

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quote:

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as for the BMW v12 engin ther is an ultima build sight out ther where the guy has put a lot of efort in to recreating an car with mac f1 figures (aparently the ultima was the mac f1 dev car) he has done some work on the engin to gett more from it s aparently the f1's engin was develped from the 800 block and bits

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quote:

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Originally posted by James
Only just spotted this thread.

Violent Blue,
Any idea where you got that picture of the BMW/Audi from? I'd like to know more about it.

Thanks,
James

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Does anyone know any japanese cars with transaxles ?

Subaru STi and Misubishi EVO are both AWD and lots of hp. Theoretically you could lock the center diff and drive only the fronts.

a scooby would be a good choice, due to the short flatness of the engine! assuming that you can make it a reliable 2wd. The old ones came as 2wd, in the 1.6 impreza. anyone know if the box is the same strength as the better ones?

quote:

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Originally posted by James
[Violent Blue,
Any idea where you got that picture of the BMW/Audi from? I'd like to know more about it.

Thanks,
James

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quote:

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Originally posted by JoelP
when i was asking about transaxles a while ago someone was kind enough to post a BIG list of FWD longitudinal cars with transaxles. Included saab 900, audi 80/90/100/4000/5000 plus many more...

a search for transaxle shouldn't provide too many results so it should be quite easy to find.

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i'm interested in that list to!

http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=7945&page=2

not such a massive list, but at the top of page 2, suparuss (where the hell has he got to?) posts a good few.